hmm I don't see where "we were talking" about anything. I saw lotus mention this and he didn't specifically say that he was talking about straight l2s without stuns or slows.

I'm not just talking about training here. granted your not going to go and waste a l2 on someone close to the cannons regardless. He specifically talked how one player he saw used it more defensively than offensively because of its design perils. Players don't go and waste their mana all the time regardless they try to use it when they think it will injure or kill and there are plenty of areas one can do that at.

Everyone has their own build and their own opinion. He said the best player he ever saw used lurking and l2 for defense I'm trying to say l2 is far more than a defensive tool pro or non pro. He was like any other lurker bomber imo.

lol@no votes for Rine Assault
Back to firebat, keep spells?

The one thing I don't like about DM in 1.6, is that if my dark orb is about to die near me, I can't l1 and save it. It just spawns 2 broodlings without healing it's shields... thus feeding my opponent.

balance ling - 6 melee, 7 armor, the rest missile, get lv3 after 100 mana & 1-4 hp ups.

lurk whore - 3 melee, no armor/hp, lv3 after 80 mana, natural minerals+sims go all missile, all civs go to mana. Potential to beat everything, but cry if you get stunned with less than 80 mana.

Lv2 ling - first 2 civs into minerals for (almost) 6 melee att, then get lv2, then hp+mana.

Powerling - All civs to minerals for melee until u hit 12. After that put civs into hp. Fuck your lv2. Laff in volt face as he lv1-3's you. Cry when mael'd

Exactly why does nobody ever post any l4 builds for mutant? Why haven't I seen many builds on the mutant's l4? It's absolutely godlike VS Light Mage, with over 300 damage per hit w/ 20 melee upgrades.

D: you guys suck.
What IS the current perspectives about me switching the rine and fbat.. cause I can always switch it back easily with Notepad...
I felt that the D-web made more sense with Marine, same with the grenade.... It's really difficult to work with the scourge and also be able to get your firebat close enough. Also, I wanted to have a reason to put marine at +2 bonus dmg. If the rine is the engineer, then I have to put it to +3 dmg.. which was a little OP in the first vers. Furthermore, Firebat with mines made more sense to me.

@Mutant's huge win... twas expected XD

Moving L2's are quite easy to aim, it takes about 3/4 a second from casting until the zerglings come up to form a nice little wall. It also takes about 1/4 second extra to jump from right behind them to right in front of them- so the problem is if they juke you in that 1 second.

Also, did everyone forget about ambushes? NV + Bottlenecking + L2 = one dead runner
Though, a bunch of times the zlings froze up for me, half a tile from enemy.

l4 is for more than just lm, it can be used as a way to escape if you are low on hp, it can be used to own Volt, dm, fbat, dt, even war at times. So it definitely is worth mentioning. Any ling that doesn't get l4 is pathetic...

personally I like the way it is now. What i don't like is the nuke for l4 but we have yet to find a replacement spell. L4 mines also seem to be a bit annoying and could use a replacement eventually too. They are both good spells but very difficult to balance as the nuke is too powerful but when wasted is too expensive while the mines with invincibilty conquer everything and those without invincibility are pretty useless late game with ranged spawns.

I've explored the engineer the most and he seems quite nice but I have yet to do much for pking. I can defend myself with bunkers feed and mine the shit out of everything and even use the tanks for base demolishing but have trouble pking things except for irradiating units that are dumb enough to stick arround with low life. This is not to say I can't kill dumb players it is more I can't kill smart players.

As for the rine web is great. The damage is fine Imo. I haven't got to use his dropships yet though. The nuke ghost leaves something to be desired but that is because i just don't like nuking I prefer the 3 highpowered summon ghosts. Also haven't had a chance to use the new l2 either.

I like both characters as they are now over what they were in previous and are in m8. They both just don't have quite the right mix that would put them into my popular characters vote. I do really like the engineer but the way buildings are just obliterated in temple siege makes me like him less.

Rine assault is really good., I really loved to nuke ppl while constantly stunning them. Its l1 gives it split upgrades?! a 1-2 second Stun move that makes it more time to attack a fleeing opponent. I guess l3 Dropship can let you stun and attack. l2 web on player surrounded by spawn is pure rape. If there were 4 votes, I would vote assault rine, but Assassin, LM, and Warrior already took his spot.

Yeah, the Engineer can't really PK man. It's all defense tactics, annoyance, and pressuring.
The cloaked bunkers add a big annoyance and survivability to the buildings early game... and tanks just cover an area until the opponents decide to team on the tanks. But, overall, the Engineer cannot PK, and isn't supposed to.

The "new" assault l2 isn't that new. there's just an added sensor that makes the grenade blow up if it's next to a foe for 1.5 secs. I've found this useful in running away.. sorta like a "drop grenade" tactic

Excluding Vortex's comment, these Mutant builds and advice are appauling.

At least you understand.

120 for a dodge/escape...


dm - mael
volt - lv2 (and dont even say manual, the volt is going to be running while using it, and attack+move freeze glitch happens to ultra more than any other sc unit, even zealot)
dt - lv1 using lv4 over lv3 vs dt is brain dead

I think I've debunked that.

I think you mean "any player that doesn't get lv4 after they've gotten 450 man is pathetic"

Try and remember we are talking about Lv4 BUILDS. Like medic rushing her lv4 is a Lv4 BUILD, mutant getting all his spell lv's at some arbitrary point in the game is something else entirely.

There's nothing wrong with 2 civs in mana, 3 in level spell, rest in HP for mutant. If you get a stunner of any kind, that's all you need.

That's also why he's used so much. You can't use spawn vs mutant either. lings and rines are the most overpowered base units there are.

see though the problem is you designed a hero that really cant kill other heros which is why I have a hard time picking him as my top 3. Granted l4 mines can kill and so can irradiate in right circumstances your just not as much of a part of the game unless its sieging the base in which all 3 heros can attack while the scv conquers outposts or breaks into base in another spot. The bunkers are nice but they don't do that much dmg even with ups because there are only 2 rines in each bunker.

I really do like him unholy but I have a hard time using him as a top pick since he really can't do what most games require or what is usually the fun in most games.

I actually like the Light Mage, Warrior and Summoner.

This post is intended for serious top level play.

Mutant's invaluable L4 is the only thing allowing him to be competitively viable, without it he would be strictly a pub stomp hero. His builds not only depend on the hero matchup but the flow of the game. In a normal high level game it is almost always necessary to upgrade hp early on for your heroes unless it is a specific scenario where survivability isn't needed. Lurkers are needed in every matchup. this excludes against warrior and assault, but those heroes require Mutant to have his L4 to survive anyway. L4 against LM is just a big no. Also note that an extremely pro Volt will know that his only defence against lurkers is a straight switch to L4 since late game Mutant can lurk from a distance, wait for Volt to L2 then go in for the rape with his L4.

Wrong. This MAY happen on a rare occasion but the Volt's L2 turns him into a crawl and the only way he can survive the ultra is if he has PLENTY of hp to withstand the damage which the Mutant will just lurk away beforehand before finishing him off. Note that besides in base scenarioes, Mutant will tend to control the direction of the battle since Volt is a DEFENSIVE hero.

Going against Medic teams are a different basket altogether usually requiring an L2 + mass Hp build.

It's hard to explain but generally speaking the Mutant should focus on lurkers once the mineral intake has been significant enough for some serious DPS. This can be longer then people think because of a few reasons.

1. Most heroes are going to have upgraded their Hp.
2. Mutant has a bad opening game, only capable of stalling. He would require heroes such as Spec Ops, Archer, Assault, Summoner, Dark Mage or Medic to expect any captures.
3. Not only does the mineral intake of your team matter, but also the other teams' relative minerals are counted since armor can make lurkers ineffective at low and medium levels.

Also note that it is extremely unwise to ever put anything else besides 2 levels into minerals because ling's main weakness is that he is dependant in ALL areas and has no levels to spare. Having less then 5 melee is also unwise since he needs to be as effective at stalling as possible.

With that being said, the latest to ever focus on lurkers is when the marine spawn starts. This is the time in the game where ling's power skyrockets over all other heroes. The mineral intake for ling starts becoming uncounterable by armor as well as heroes without decent amounts of hp. This is because ling is the only hero able to effectively splash allied marines, and by that time of the game he most likely has enough mana to do so every wave.


Just a medium level pubstomp tactic. Shouldn't ever work. Lurkers are the only reasonable way to destroy the LM.

Nicely put Fashioned.