This is why you've been struck down. People help, but people do not have to become 'anything' to be of help.

I have a suspicion this kind of shit is part of the problem, too... kinda like with this thread.
I suspect SC2 map making community center is going to be gobbled up almost immediately by the bigger Blizzard brown nosing sites... if not by Blizzard itself. At best this site would form into a clan-like satellite, most likely.

I think the real thing we should do now is stop worrying about it. Period. As in, like, no part that comes after that step. Just ignore predictions of what's going to happen and do whatever comes naturally. Community leadership, if ever it comes, will come about from inner excellence and energy, not from stupid pride, superfluous hierarchy, and contentious will. 'Trying' to compete is probably the surest way to lose this battle, is what I'm saying.




Have some Kung Fu wisdom n' shit.

SEN will get a lot of hope for the future when people test maps for me.

No its not, and you obviously havent been here long enough to understand the TRUE meaning of it.

Im not too afraid of SEN dieing when SC2 comes out much anymore. If its time to move on to a new site like the scavengers that we are, then fine, lets roll. If not, hey, maybe we become a top notch SC2 mapping site.

Too many people here think they're pumping fresh blood into the heart of SEN, trying to keep it alive, but a lot are only killing it faster. Until that is realised and everyone here can describe how they help this site, then I fear it will crash and burn very shortly.

And by all means, do NOT blame IP for the site taking a turn in this direction, that would be silly and immature. Its the own community that refuses to contribute, and add to the collection of mapping we have here.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go work on a map before people call me a hypocrite

If I had time I might, but I don't. The best I can do is help people in the UMS section.

Also, DM has definitely matured compared to what he used to act like, and could probably make a good mod now.

I disagree. Trying to compete leads to competing. Not trying to compete leads to being uncompetitive. We have a sizable community of programmers and graphic artists; we have people who can go around the many blocks of SC map making and who'll be able to think of innovative concepts for SCII. SEN has a very relatively mature user base, even compared to the prime competitor-still-up, wc3campaigns.net, even if we're not that active anymore. In addition, we have our fringe groups who might easily come back once SCII is released - those producing SC Depot, those who joined Maplantis, etc. SEN doesn't have a particularly static social structure. TZ is relatively new, and is already a respected modder, if still considered annoying (not me, no offense ) by some. Inferno is another one. There is some Elitism stemming from longtime presence on SEN, but I would expect that unless some completely new website opens up, it'll be present in the competitors. I definitely noticed it on wc3campaigns.net.

The main problems I believe we need to work on are the website features at this point. Tightening the rules and trying to regulate members more won't attract more mapmakers to our fold - expanding our database, making it more user-friendly (we can take a leaf from wc3campaigns.net book on this - I really like their database, with tiled pictures of the models, etc), and writing many tutorials in the wiki as we learn new things in SCII will attract people to us. I believe that SC's declining popularity is essentially SEN's single largest problem right now. The influx of people who came when they learned about SCII (I came back then) has ended, and we're back into a decline until SCII is out and starts kicking up as people see that there's no maps and start to wonder where they can get pointers. We SENners release the first several UMS maps with nice little advertisements pointing to SEN if you want SCII editing help, and viola.

In striving for excellence, you don't even need to 'try' to compete to be competitive. Except perhaps with your own self. And in the end, that's the only person you're really competing with.

Be the shining light of excellence before the loud, brazen contraption of pride.
</randomwisdom>



Even Blizzard could use a bit of humility themselves, methinks...

No. I'll still pitch in when I have nothing going on, but I'd never want to have any time I needed to dedicate again.

Unpleasantly buddhist-like. SEN striving for excellence WOULD be it competing. SEN competing WOULD be it striving for excellence. Competing with yourself is rather pointless, no? Why would one invest effort to improving something, if there is no upside to doing so? (assuming said one isn't an altruist)

Man up people. It's a starcraft website.

Oh and to be relevant to the actual topic, yes I would help if I could. I have no knowledge of how to code a database like SEN uses though. I can write C++ programs and could probably make the transition to PHP, but I'm not sure where to begin.

Um. I've been around since the very beginning of SEN, when you had to start with rotating SC unit avatars. So yeah, THIS is why you keep getting struck down. You presume things that are not necessarily true, you presume newcomers cannot help at all, and you presume making your sentences abstract makes you look smart- when it makes you look even more demented than necessary.

As much as you would dislike, every bit helps. Staying active helps. Lurking helps (I don't know about this one, but it obviously increases the amount of users logged onto the site.) Encouraging newcomers in an ideal way helps. But this?
You're the biggest threat to SEN. If you've been around for so long, why not mature? Why not encourage others to help? That is what this thread intended anyhow.

I'll leave you to that thought if that's all you want to see in what I'm saying.

Probably because we know the outcome of that already. It leads to spam, and a bunch of crap that kids think is helping.

Said the troll to the one explaining the problem.

You have a default avatar, you defently dont make an impact on any mapping, hell I dont even know who you are. If you've been here any longer than I have then it sure doesnt show.

So anyway, you took my post, and pretended I wasnt contributing to this thread, rather talking about myself and ideals for this site, and said this is you and I dont like you. I dont appreciate it honestly. Id like to futher this post by explaining how bad judging others based off a post is, but that would be more offtopicness then already is.

You wanna help? Let SEN decide it, not you. No individual can directly alter its outcome, only the collection and collaboration of the mass.

Probably. But it would still be better off if SEN wasn't so boring as it is right now. Its dying because its spamless- or otherwise lacking lots of active members.

That shows you have a superiority complex. What does a default avatar mean? I think it means I don't have enough time to waste on avatars. And as for maps, I don't map. I don't care. I am here because SEN is a community, comprised of individuals that are capable of thinking.
It is apparent that you are incapable of thinking, as you seem to ignore the fact that the mass and SEN is obviously comprised of individuals. Without individuals and individual help, there would be no mass at all.

You should be banned for those words. You are no help to SEN and many MANY more will agree.

In reference to your link, I agree that too much meta is bad (and that was an interesting read, thanks for linking that). However, self-examination if one feels there's a problem is not. You shouldn't let the fear that over-analysis will result in poor productivity scare you from taking an honest look at yourself if you're worried something is wrong. There has not been a topic questioning SEN's health in a good while, so I don't think this topic is contributing to any problems. But if we do get to the point like we were in 05/06 and have people posting topics about "IS SEN DYING!?!?" every 3 days, then yes, productivity has been lost.

The main reason I felt compelled to give a response like the one I gave is that I feel like I've got a good model taking place in my own life right now. I feel like I learned, the hard way, what sort of attitude might best serve to instigate the sort of change to make SEN grow again.

I'm president of the film club at my university (I just got re-elected for a third term, btw) and it's been quite the interesting journey. The students in the film studies program at my college felt that their need to learn about on-set production was not being met, and after their attempts to form relationships with other organizations that could potentially solve their problem failed, the students decided to form a club to try and generate the resources they needed to solve their own problem. I had a connection that I thought might give us some money and equipment, so as the club was forming, I ran for president and won.

Well... Those connections I spoke of would up not being of any use. So I was literally unable to deliver on the promise I made that got me elected. You can imagine I was disappointed and embarrassed. I was interrupted in the middle of one of the last meetings of my first term by a heckler telling me my ideas were bullshit. The club nearly died. I won the second election (and I almost didn't run) because no one cared enough about the withered club to try and get the position. It was then that I had a change in attitude. I had indeed been approaching the problem of getting production equipment for the club in the wrong way. My pride and my (now non-existent) belief that I was destined to succeed was preventing me from seriously addressing problems because I thought too much "negative thinking" would jinx me somehow. I realized that if I was going to make this club what it wanted to be (and what I really needed it to be so I could continue to make movies), I was going to have to shake off whatever pain I felt, get up, and try again. Not trying is the only sure way to fail.

So my second attempt to get equipment for the club actually worked out. Once that happened, it was strange for me. The glory I sought when I first ran for president under the promise of equipment didn't matter to me anymore. Getting my dick sucked (in a proverbial sense) wound up not being anywhere near as rewarding as seeing other people make movies that they wouldn't have been able to make if I hadn't tried hard to get them what they needed. Of course, I also benefited, since now I have a much easier time making movies. The club's popularity has skyrocketed, and now it's gone from basically me running everything to having a staff of about a dozen officers and committee chairs to manage the hundreds of people that are interested in the club and its projects.

My point in relation to SEN is that I feel I was for the film club what Yoshi was for this site and maplantis. Despite few tangible rewards, sticking to a project you really love no matter how many times you fail, or how embarrassing it is, or how often you're told that you're wrong, or how much it hurts, is what it ultimately took to turn a long shot and turn it into a success. If someone wants SEN to grow, it's going to take new ideas and some serious dedication and patience. I, personally, am not in a position to give SEN more energy than I'm already giving it. However, I hope that providing examples from my own experience and what I think led to SEN's/maplantis' initial surge in productivity will inspire someone here to take up that mantle. I think that's what it's going to take to make SEN start growing again. Is anyone here up to this task?

It's been pointed out that growth indirectly results in competition. I agree that competing for bragging rights is not the noblest of motivations, but one shan't shy away from competition if it's a reflection of a good job (I had to face some pretty formidable rivals to succeed in winning re-election this time around). But if all this sounds like too much for anyone, then things will pretty much stay as they are. The SEN magazine was a good try (and who knows, it might still have some life in it). We ideas and dedication like that if we're to grow.

We do need a competition...Wheres Yoshi when you need him...

Effective use of introspection can be a very powerful tool if wielded appropriately. But like all powerful tools, it can also be just as dangerous. I'm wary of threads like these. Especially since the last few that I've engaged in we're... somewhat less than productive, as I recall.
*claps*

Not much really to say to this except that I agree.

agreed, sen is a mapping site, if u dun care then get out in the nicest way possible.

well, i typed a really long post, but it was lost when my internet timed out so i guess i'll just give more of a jist

SEN id one of the best communities i have been a part of. The only one that comes close is sc2armory, but that's full of noobs who debate shitty stuff like whether the immortals in sc2 have penises or not (really). And it's waaaaay better than the WoW or Warcraft communities.

Basically, i think that if mappers start putting the SEN name out there on their maps somehow, i think it could really help the community. Especially when sc2 comes out and we have kickass maps coming out the wazoo. SEN isn't just gonna die when the map editor changes, it's not about the editor, it's about the community support and the talent that our mapmakers have to go above and beyond what the editor is supposed to be able to do ( hypertriggers as an example ). I think sc2 will help this community out a lot, especially with the help of our best mapmakers.

I joined sen when looking for a ts balance forum, and wound up actually getting involved in the community, and i plan to be on sen for a lot longer. I might not map, but i will still test, help balance, discuss ideas, and anything else to help the mappers do their best, which is something this community has very much of. Support.