http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_atheism
Explain why cant you be both agnostic and mormon? You can be Christian and Atheist.

I think the problem with this poll is that I cannot select all that apply. (except for other? )

Oh, I didn't realize that an agnostic mormon was actually a term, rather than a combination of both, like Christian Atheism.

I like Christianity as fiction, the personification of good vs bad, Hell vs Heaven, demons and angels are all very "written".

Yay. I pulled a Syphon.

Moving on, I'm technically a Buddhist. Argue back and forth as you will.

No. How?

Syphon loves posting that picture in religion debates.

Also, HA, I TOLD YOU ALL, ATHEISM ISN'T MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE! BAM! I AM A VICTORY!

Lulz, that's funny. Rubbish, but funny.

It's actually our most celebrated proof against an omniscient, omnipotent, and benevolent god. It's cute that you think you can just dismiss it.

... seriously? That CANNOT be your most celebrated proof against an omniscient, omnipotent, and benevolent god... I know you can do better than that... even I, as a christian, can come up with better things than that and I know you know there are better ones out there too.

The only argument I've ever heard against it is "God is just testing us by giving us the free will to commit evil" which doesn't really work, because an omniscient God wouldn't need to test us and a benevolent one wouldn't.

More formally, the argument is:

The proof is infallible, as far as I've seen. If you disagree, which premise is wrong?

Less scoffing more disproving.

Thought you'd never ask. Ok then first define "evil." We'll start from there based on your definition. This is important because your whole "proof" builds upon this very definition (funny how you call it a proof, it's as credible as me using Pascal's Wager when arguing for the existence of God.)
This as well as that picture posted earlier depend entirely on what "evil" is.

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Sep 30 2009, 5:38 pm by MillenniumArmy.

Was that really necessary? This is null, not SD, he doesn't really have to specifiy. Besides, it's pretty obvious they're talking about the Christian definition of evil as it's the one they're arguing is false. Well, every religion with an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolant god, but Christianity seems to be the only one targeted.

Wouldn't it be easier to just get to the debate part of the debate instead of jumping around the outside with the "Well how do you define x" when it's pretty obvious how they define x.

But, really, I don't think it matters what his definition of evil is, rather what god's (Not the Christian one, rather just a god with the traits you described in general) definition of evil is, because if there really was a god, he wouldn't listen to what humans think is evil, but rather what truely is evil (As he knows everything), and would eliminate that. For all you know, if a benevolant, omnipotent, omniscient god exists, he could have already eliminated what is 'truely' defined as evil.

I'm not religious, but I am spiritual, and alot of atheist vs christians debates, I feel, are rather stupid. This is because one side is based completely around logic, and the other is not. You can't argue with logic against logic that doesn't exist, it's like comparing apples and oranges, and all you'll ever do is come out with two severely pissed off groups of people, both of whom thinking they've won and angry because the other side won't admit they haven't.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Sep 30 2009, 6:40 pm by BAGLES.

Whoever wrote that also doesn't have a clear understanding of free will.

Not really testing us.

GrantedAbsolutely
Yep
This bit, not so much. How do you know that? Citation from the Bible needed.
Yep.
Again, desire to eliminate all evil, how do you know? However, that's not the major problem. The major problem is that isn't ENOUGH to disprove God. You see, God does what HE wants, not what we think He wants. The Bible explains what He wants. And He is willing to allow evil into this world, TO A SMALL EXTENT, and why? (MA or someone correct me if I'm wrong) It's a simple answer, and the reason God does anything: He does so for His own glory. And it wouldn't give much glory if He made perfect people, who didn't sin, and had eternal life.
This way, He takes sinners, and through His grace, forgives them and gives them eternal life.Disproven.

Response to bagles: I know it's referring to a more christian/religious leaning definition of evil but still I'm curious, what is the Christian definition of evil? I really want to hear CAFG's answer because apparently this definition of evil is pivotal in making him believe that quote/picture to be one of the most compelling "proofs" ever. I'm appalled that he believes this to be so great of an argument so I want to know why, which begins with his definition of what "evil" is.
Note: I'm not looking for what constitutes as "evil" but more what is "evil" itself.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Sep 30 2009, 7:26 pm by MillenniumArmy.

I'll bite.

That which results in pain or hatred.

I'm not shy to say this is the bedrock of my atheism. So even if you don't end up completely disproving Epicurus, putting a scratch on it would at least effect my world view.

See, there's the problem. Biblical evil for HUMANS and other creatures is going against the ten commandments, or against the two great commandments (same thing on different levels).

Double-posting because I don't think a response to Zany's comments are deserving enough to even share the same post as MA's

I'm gonna have to ask you to open your mind a little bit wider. It's a default trait of omnibenevolence.
[/quote]Again, desire to eliminate all evil, how do you know? However, that's not the major problem. The major problem is that isn't ENOUGH to disprove God. You see, God does what HE wants, not what we think He wants. The Bible explains what He wants. And He is willing to allow evil into this world, TO A SMALL EXTENT, and why? (MA or someone correct me if I'm wrong) It's a simple answer, and the reason God does anything: Who is he trying to impress?
I dunno, I'd be pretty glory-impressed if everything someone made was perfect. More impressed than if they made everything imperfect, but 'fixed' a few things. Your god sounds like a glutton for this glory stuff.


Also, chill on the CCC. It just makes me giggle.

This is where I take issue with your arguments. It assumes a lot about the nature of God and how one must/should run things.

I disagree with both of these statements. An omniscient God may know what would or will happen, but does that mean he should do nothing and let nothing happen? Is it benevolence to let no man experience pain, feel anguish, know sorrow? Can you really know happiness if you haven't experienced these things, if you haven't been devoid of joy?

It sounds to me like your idea of a benevolent god is an overprotective parent that never allows his kids to experience anything, make mistakes or be in any risk at all and ergo not let them grow or learn. I do not call that benevolence, I call that incompetence.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Sep 30 2009, 9:57 pm by Kaias. Reason: typo

Thanks for the vote of confidence, I'm glad we aren't resorting to personal attacks here...[/sarcasm]

How do you know? Have you personally met God and He told you that omnibenevolent beings have this habit of wanting to eliminate evil?
No one. Who said anything about impressing anyone?
I dunno, I'd be pretty glory-impressed if everything someone made was perfect. More impressed than if they made everything imperfect, but 'fixed' a few things. Your god sounds like a glutton for this glory stuff.
[/quote]
Everything WAS perfect. But God decided to let man have free will, so man stuffed up.
Sigh. No. I prefer showing God the respect that He deserves.

And +1 for kaias