I think it's pointless because:
a) People who use nexus already capped outposts
b) Costly and takes long to build
c) Hard to place
d) It can get stolen if you place it close to outpost.

Maybe make nexuses cost gas instead of minerals, they would be risking a probe if they don't build cannons anyway. Or just cost like 10 minerals.

personally i always thought nexus is a great idea it just isn't practical in game because it can be destroyed too easily and costs too mcuh to be worth it.

this makes me sad for a lotta reasons...
1. faz has been part of many arguments and such, and causes a ruckus, then says he's done...
2. people's attitudes are too much like this lately... What i think a lotta people dont realize is that dota and such are made with a much more powerful map editing engine than ts... i seriously believe the only thing holding ts back from being better/as good as dota is the map editing engine, and even that we at sen have taken to it's compkete limits, beyond what it was originally meant to handle. What i can't wait for is people coming back if unholy/moose makes a ts for sc2 and going OMGTHISISSOMUCHBETTERTHANDOTA!!!!! And then us telling them that maybe they should have kept faith... We at sen(maybe not myself included) are truly mapmaking geniuses, and with a sc2 engine, the possibilities are endless...

sorry btw, kinda off topic...

Of course War3 has a far more powerful engine, and Heroes of Newerth uses an engine built specifically for itself, so it doesn't even have any of the limitations of War3. DotA pushed the War3 engine to the brink, and with all of the independent games coming out resembling it I simply don't see the potential for a game of the same scale to suceed in SC2. Not that it won't be attempted. The environment doesn't really fit, there's not really any magic in SC, except among the aliens.

And yeah, I've been a big part of most of the arguments but looking back it's oftentimes about relatively trivial changes. My first "big" suggestion was to raise the spawns HP and damage (as it is done in DotA) and that still hasn't happened. The gameplay pales because of this.

Personally, I don't think the map design needs to be pushed any further, even if it could be. The more complex the map is the less likely the majority of players playing it will understand what to do. The more you push it the more delicate the whole thing becomes, and then there's no variations to it. It becomes a universal standard that appeals to one group of loud mouths. It'll become just like Median XL. A mod for lunatics with too much time.

I agree spawns should be made more difficult. Only a complete idiot would get killed by the starting spawn, even if it was made slightly more difficult to kill. Although, I don't think that health upgrades should be given to the first two starter groups. The main advantage to certain classes is their ability to rack up exp in the first couple of rounds. By the time you hit round 3 mineral boosts are so high it's ridiculous, although, that should be lowered anyhow. Broodlings with 9(5+4]) damage instead of 6 and Zerglings with 10+8 would definitely give people a little more reason to play defensively and actually worry about the spawn damage.

Upping your spawn needs to be removed though. It has always been the most absurd place to shelf your exp towards. Going from Marines > Hydras is game winning, and that shouldn't be the case when you consider the cost. It would be worse if the spawn was made stronger too. Upping to Hydras with 60 dmg instead of 40 would just be OP.

(note): This bit here is quite off-topic, as it applies primarily to the discussions on 1.5. Although it dances around 1.4 MT as well.

I disagree entirely on having a delay for Mech. I feel the same about the delay on lurks. There's no reason to pick up Lurks with even a slightly half way decent team. Considering in 3v3 the chance of not picking up a swarm or stun to go along with your munchers and the fact that lurks would do more harm than good, few players even need them. The only time Lurks have ever been OP is during very specific 2v2s against specifically slow or weak picks. Even then, adding this delay doesn't really change the fact that the Mutant has that advantage over slower picks. The answer should have been removing the Metabolic Boost upgrade from the game.

With the mech it's different. This class is reliant upon that ability to morph in a dangerous second. When you consider that the mech shift can be preordained, it becomes easy to catch him on the run. If you want to kill the mech, you need to be able to drain mana or stun. There's no reason to penalize this guy when you consider he lacks both of those to begin with. Compare it with the warrior or archer who either have unbelievable HKos or heavy ass defenses, and there about even right down the middle in fact. When you kill someone it's because you killed them. Not because they couldn't have done something about it. Mech needs only to be off by a few mana or misclick one time to die. That's enough for anyone to get crunched. And the mech is no farther or closer to that than either of these three.

The archer's L2 is used fine enough. Just because it isn't used in round 4 doesn't mean it's useless. You want to protect your bases and sims, well that's a pretty good way to prevent an assassin from just walking in and taking it. The only problem with it is that it costs a little too much gas. Building a hatchery and several sunkens by round 2 is quite expensive actually. The archer could lose a bit of max health I think. Take a 400 chunk out of there to bring it a bit in line with others. 1st round rush, fast, ranged, hkoer, base builder, base killer, and hydra army. That's a lot for just one package. A high max health along with that is a little much.

One thing that needs to be changed for certain is removing consume. Summoner shouldn't be able to end the game by round 2. That's just absurd. Sim spam and assassin/warrior on stun n crunch on top of summoner base rushing is the most op thing I've ever heard of. Unless you're packing a DM, volt or assault you get reamed.

Volt definitely needs to have his shields lowered and health increased to counter the Spec Ops. 2600/2000 would at least give him a semblance of security against an EMP. His L4 could have the cooldown reduced. 10 Seconds instead of 20 would be a little bit more acceptable. Mech and both Archer can spam L4 without problem. The volt even at max health can die from either of these. Worse the Super Volt can die from a single Archer L4.

There are a lot of things that could be done relatively easily and actually balance out some flaws that are pretty staggering. Mutant is still one of the strongest rushers in the game, even with quite a low health. Summoner just dominates way too easily if it isn't fighting against a direct counter. Despite that, it has a huge advantage.

Changes like these are always shoved off in lieu of unprofessional players.....and laziness....

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Aug 16 2009, 9:27 am by Crackhead.

It'd be nice if you cut the blue bit out and put it in the other topic.

NOW! Zerglings with +8 ups? Are you insane? Remember lings are used for summoner too, and summoner with plus 1 would still be pretty powerful.

Upping spawn is part of the game. It's high risk but generally ends the game, either for or against the upper.

Consume removed would be a good remove, it maker capping bases and base killing in general too easy.

Marine with an EMP is a counter to Volt, changing that would be meh. Maybe a small change but most classes gave a hard counter of some sort, and making the volt stronger coukd be OP. It would need balancing.
And only an idiot or a stunned unit dies to archer lvl4. With it's warmup, its pretty easy too anticipate and dodge. Lvl 4 is a temple killer and not much else IMO.

The blue bit pertains to some discussions on 1.5, however, I put here it intentionally so as to reference it. The Archer's L2, and Mutant's Metabolic Upgrade for instance. Mech I mention because I know it's something that I don't want to see changed in 1.4.

No, I mean 4x2 upgrades for spawns. Not +8, lol. Broodlings with 5+(4x1) upgrades and Zerglings with 10+(4x2) upgrades.

Let's say for simplicities sake to increase Spawn Upgrade cost. Instead of a static 4 exp, it's 4(+3) for every level. Most of the time +1 spawn upgrade isn't game changing. By the time zealots come around you've already gone through a round with marines, by then you've got some levels and some exp enough to deal with hydras if someone decides to up spawn. You can counter easily. Stocking 11 civilians by the time marines come is harder than 8, as well 21 by the time zealots spawn is harder than 12(for Goliaths). Point being, at least make it difficult to stock those civilians. 8 By the time you're through with zerglings really isn't all that much.

Archer's L4 is a definite base killer, but it's still used for Hkoing with even the slightest semblance of a stun. Assault, Volt, Assassin, Warrior, and DM. With none of those on you're team it's still possible to use it on a Mech using L4, Warrior using L3, a Med, a DM, a LM, Volt, etc. Anything unsuspecting at night that can't see the charge up can die from it. Warrior, Mutant, Mech(Bike Mode), Spec Ops, and Assault can get away. Summoner is obviously out of the question(Consume definitely needs to be removed) and Assassin can run from anything in the game except Med.

Volt's L4 really isn't all that strong frankly. You can't even use your spells. It seems like this thing kind of defeats the purpose TBH. At the very least you should be able to use your spells while transformed. With a 20 second cooldown all you need to do is wait for it to wear off then engage the Volt. Almost everything in the game can escape the Volt until that L4 is dispelled. The only class that would be totally unable to escape would be the LM. Although frankly, the LM really blows anyway.

Post has been edited 7 time(s), last time on Aug 16 2009, 11:22 am by Crackhead.

Ohk lol. I thought you were crazy for a second there, I mean thats practically more than warrior, and summoner is powerful enough.

This assumes that pushing the map design always occurs in a way that adds complexity. There is also a portion of players that can understand perfectly and easily what to do but will refuse to make the effort because they are used to the old way. That simply makes tradition an obstacle to logic.

So, what's the solution here? Get rid of spawn level upgrades and replace it with... something that doesn't work for the first two levels of spawn?

Agreed.

Yes, but then which does he upgrade?
We might as well just give him low shields and make him a straight-HP class.

Laziness... don't know what you're talking about.

Here is my argument against spawn rushing:

You know, this was actually the way I was considering redoing the experience system. I believe I decided against it when I realized it would also change the XP given for killing summoned units. Anyway, they get a lot easier to kill and don't improve, so I think it makes this change justified.
I also wanted to make day and night just a bit shorter.

The trend these days is to use the L3 forever-stun then go L4 for a kill.
I can understand the need for a shorter cooldown, though.

Anyway, Crackhead, since you're new to this thread here... any ideas for a new Spec Ops or Assault L4?

I have an idea for a Assualt L4!

Gatling Gun- marines are created and removed with just enough time in between for them to attack.

I would say give the marines +1 or +2, and have the spell last for at least 10 seconds. This could be deadly when coupled with Assualt's stunning spells.

That's not a terrible idea, I'd definitely prefer it to mines or to a nuke.

Ok, spawn systems in this game have always been a problem, although after playing hon, and not saying everything in hon should be transferred to ts, i saw some things i liked...

Spawn in hon were very balanced. Also, the way it changes during the coure of the game is really cool. basically, spawn is always the same units, but every once and a while they get stronger, such as more hp and more damage. This could be replicated with giving the comps upgrades and having their health like the heroes, as it just increases to max. Also, ranged spawns are much weaker hp and damage wise, so they dont own all the melee creeps and so on... It might be hard to implement adn might be a stupid idea, but thats my opinion.

The idea has already been talked about..

The big problem with this is that KillScores would be different...

A way around it is that the Killscore to Experience can change WITH the Spawns getting more Hp.. but then killing any other things would also give you more exp... :\...

What kills to cash are you using? Can't you make it so that killing lings gives more exp than zealots for example?

a quickfix would be to increase zealots attack damage to 21 per strike, meaning a 42 total. Then, if a player can tank lings, they'll only take 22 damage from zealots, which seems fair considering their slowness and they are melee. Then since even with higher damage marines can mow them down, boost zealots life to 230, and drop marine's attack to 16.

While this is possible, the main problem is splash from either attacks and spells would ruin the system, because you would kill all the units at the same time. Perfect kills to cash works flawlessly when the units die one at a time and slowly, but when there is splash, it tends to mess up a bit because it's impossible to tell if you killed four zerglings or two marines. A possible workaround would be using death of the enemies to detect what really died, but because this is an AoS, units are constantly dieing. So I'm not sure really, you could always set deaths to zero and move it to the bottom of the list but I'm not sure that would fix it.
Edit: Okay, after reading the wiki again and looking at the test map, TZ was right. Though it does update a bit slow, looks fine so far. It does seem like a lot of triggers would needed to be placed though.

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Aug 18 2009, 12:31 pm by Ultimo.

Lies. Perfect kills-to-cash does not have this problem because it uses Kills of Unit, not Kills Score. http://www.staredit.net/wiki/Kills_To_Cash#%22Perfect%22_kills_to_cash

Story + Pic = Yay!
Every heard of the Great Pirate King?

Yea, well he's my father. I never once saw him in my life.
I knew I was never cut out to be some cutesy royal princess like my dear ol' mom—'Cus I wanted to conquer the world.
Life was pretty crappy sitting in a small room all day—That was 'till these guys wearing hoods came in and blew the place to hell. They actually came to tell me that my father, The Great Pirate King, died, and that I was to be the successor to the throne. I was only 8 then, and I inherited the position of The Pirate Queen—an army of archers waiting to die, at my disposal. Over the years, I plundered villages, destroyed civilizations, mascaraed thousands— 4 years later, I'm ready to take
on the challenge my Father couldn't do. He was trying to get the Infinite Treasure of the Temple.

When I made it to the Temple, something crazy happen'd. This time portal, or something, opened up around me. I can tell that hundreds of years has passed just by looking around me. Although I don't know what's changed, I'm still taking that treasure!


She can manifest burning arrows with fire she controls and can recall companions via a one-way time portal. The cloak is kinda like a hydralisk-ish look.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Aug 19 2009, 4:39 am by FlashBeer.

But we don't have an extra computer to spare for this.