ctrl+r toggles that to show it all or just the leader on the scoreboard

Needle hook is complete shit, it's wayy to hard to pull someone. It's basically just a stun. Which is stupid. Hook is a good idea but you don't pull fast enough. Focus Shot is also shit, it's nearly impossible to aim and is incredibly unreliable.

ya, i find phantom to be completely underpowered. i don't think you should make the needle hook make them walk, it should do what burrow drive does to the lurker.

That would be too easy to abuse. All you would have to do is run them into cannons for easy kill.

I'm able to fire twice with focus shot just about every time. But it's also not possible to select the unit until it decloaks, which sucks. Just create a unit owned by the player with 0% energy and cloaked and then we can find an appropriate counter. As it is now, it autofires for most people that I see using it.

His decoys are completely useless except for soaking up NPC fire. They need to spawn with equal life of the ghost's max and NOT be Infested Durans. They regenerate, it's ridiculously obvious which is the real unit. At the very least you need to create some sort of explosion effect over the Phantom before you spawn them, so a player watching can't pinpoint you immediately.

Burrow drive is more of a run away spell, in my experience. I think it would be better suited to be a level 1 spell. The Lurker could maybe have some hydra spell that summons 9 hydras around it that shoot, that would be interesting.

he can't have the clones be the same unit as the normal phantom, or the triggers for his final would mess up i think. thats also why they have a period at the end of their name. I think it would be better if when you upgrade health, it upgrades your clones health too. that would make them more useful

Hey Unholy, you singlehandedly provided me with more than a few hundred hours of entertainment, so major props!

But, one thing i noticed i don't believe has been posted here yet is what i think is a serious bug. What happened was, i was playing engineer, and i made some tanks during nighttime. i build one between cannons, and build another just above it. It then spazzed out with unit unplaceable and kept making tanks until i managed to use the scv to destroy the supply depot. So basically, our team had like 50 tanks, that went into siege mode, for most of the game.

Otherwise, the only real suggestion i have is to bug fix all the others. Because i'd really like a working 1.5...

Thanks

For my thoughts on Phantom, I think it is fine, or even overpowered, rather than underpowered, as it is now. Identifiable clones as fine as it is, because they have to check a lot of clones to see which is the correct one, considering you have a lot of clones around you (which you should). Regarding focus shot, I am able to land one shot on my designated target over 90% of the time, which is consistent enough for me. Later in the game after massing up enough kills, I was just about able to kill a Psion with one cast of final spell- this is only at 25% of the full damage done to small units. If I were to use this spell on a marine, or firebat, they would easily die. My only concern is the hookshot, as many other point out.

Here are a bunch of other ideas I had:
Mana related spells.
>> Causes nearby foes to randomly cast spells on their own (and lose the amount of mana used to cast)
>> When "infected/cursed" foes try to cast a spell, one of their other spells are randomly chosen for casting. (e.g. If they have over 80 mana and they cast l2, instead they cast l3, and 30 mana is subtracted)
>> Spell immunity, causes the hero to not be attracted to magnets, spawn broods, spell disable, paralyzed, mana drain, allied foes, etc.
Spawn related spells
>> Turns nearby enemy or allied spawns into mana.
>> Turns nearby enemy spawns into a certain minion units (e.g. gremlings, maybe for summoner spell?)
Other spells
>> Gain control over an enemy hero for a short time
Some spells that I thought of for a different type of goon before you made yours was for a War of the Worlds style walker
l2 - Laser beam - an observer spawns on the goon to aim at foes, interceptors fly from the goon toward to observer in a stream. Foes that hit the stream of interceptors will be stunned and lose mana with the amount of time stunned and mana lost, depending on how many interceptors hit them.
l3 - Pulse Cannon - interceptors scatter in all directions from the center of the goon. After a second or so, the interceptors explode and turn into scouts that fire once or twice.
l4 - Invasion - Summons one carrier called a "Mothership". Building interceptors from the Mothership will summon minion goons underneath it (4-5 goons max) Dragoons would probably need a different name.
alternate l4 - Warp System - Summons a carrier called "Warp Gate". Building interceptors from the Warp Gate will cause your Dragoon to mover underneath it.

I just thought of another spell for Lurker to try to fit the whole earth theme.
Underground - After a few critter deaths to look like digging, extremely close units a brought to a small dirt cell off to the side of the map where they are attacked by some units (zerglings, hydras or a lurker) while they have to kill some rocks of perhaps a building to "dig" themselves out. A cooldown would be needed so it could not be casted as soon as they came back out.

Hero turning into a low hp air unit??

Archer l4 could be replaced with a guardian shot spell or multiple guardians firing.
Or perhaps make Archer's l1 a single shot guardian to maintain the rain of arrows.
Something like changing l1 to guardian would allow for further split upgrades for spawn grinding, rather than putting full ups on air.

WAT

I disagree. If anything psion ability to suck in the long run counters the fact thats he's decent in the beginning. I think he should throw away spell 3 because it feels so useless. I never need it. Lvl 4 seems about right so that can stay ;D! you should replace his lvl3 with an actual attack spell since he cannot kill spawn after lings(it takes like 4 hits atleast, maybe more).

The demons immobility makes it only suck on capturing gates. It counters its stupid fast exp gain since it will practically always double lane by killing both sides spawns in one lane. Lvl 4 Is really dissapointing imo. To use it against the only thing i guess it was intended for, canons, you'd half to have enough hp to stand in the middle of a cannon formation for 10 secs or something? I mean if u can take damage from 3 canons for 10 secs and still be alive you can go up to a formation and place you self so that only one or two canons hit you and take it out manually without the aid of spells. Other the spell 4 the demon is closest to perfection out of all the new heroes imo.

The Phantom shot that spawns should not spawned cloaked. It really denies the strategy to rush to lvl 2 and spam mana since you cannot spam lvl2's. I would rather have a cool down of like 2 secs then the cloak. Its not like we can even see it while it uncloaks to target a hero instead of a spawn (which it usually goes for). I think you should replace his needle hook with another "Change all halluce to [w/e unit]" Maybe infested terrans? That way he can be the considered the offensive ghost unlike the supportive medic ghost.

IMO, I think that Psion is overpowered because it's so hard to kill. It has LOTS of hp along with his decent speed, spell 2's incinvible and spell 3's paralize. I don't think the spells suck- I think theyre strong. Spell 2 is the only problem- it lasts too long and it can be spammed. There should be a cooldown-just like lm's spell 1. I'm fine with spell 1 3 and 4. I can't think of any counters- help here?
Maybe you can add an attack spell. It could have a unit continuously spawn in the void.

I'll still go with lurker being underpowered. I feel that spell 1 and 2 are unpolished. Spell 1 is hard to kill players with. Spell 2 can work more against the lurker than with it. The observer should be harder to kill. It should take more than 2 hits to kill it. The hp of the observer should go up depending on what level the lurker's hp is. Spell 3 is fine. I'm unsure about spell 4 because I never live that long to get spell 4
Maybe you can have one of the spells an escape spell called dig. The lurker can be teleported to the nearest outpost or the base.

I'm happy with phantom but it can have some fixes. The only two problems are the spell 2 and 3. Like madzombie said, the ghost shouldn't be spawned cloaked as it takes so long to fire. Maybe you can try the idea I had before of the ghost able to attack twice rather than two ghosts being spawned. Spell 3 should have a larger pulling area. The hero getting pulled can easily get out of it. Also, I think that the spell 1 is fine- the hallus should be identifiable, but it takes time to click on every one and see if there is a luetenant under "Phantom" or no . after "Phantom".

Phantom is perfect, only aiming his l2 is a pain. It takes nearly 3 casts to finally hit someone.

I haven't used l3 much, but it's fine for me, just a stunner.

Demons spell lvl is like a weaker version of Assasins lvl2. Other than the fact that you cant lay them and have them wait until they can be activated (as opposed to only being activated when you cast it yourself) you can run up to ppl and cast it. It will instantly freeze. you can spam ur lvl 1 for a very long time this way having an extremly long stun period. If you cant seem to catch anyone with lvl 1 you can combo it with level 3. That makes it so much easier to stun. Actually Yoshi made a great suggestion with the upgraded observer health. Though each health upgrade for the observer should be liek +10 or 12. Like i said before its really demons lvl 4 that needs some working on.

I disagree. Phantom's L1 doesn't really hide the hero at all. The hallucination puff tells the other players exactly which one is the real phantom. I think, if it is possible, you should move all the units off the playing area, create the hallucinations, then move them all back to their original location, that way it is more difficult to tell immediately which one is the real phantom, since their locations would be slightly randomized.

I found several uses, ex. tanking cannon damage, having real cloaked and killing hero, trapping hero, avoid hits from melee.

I recommend this for earth demon.

Change L2 to L1, and make it unburrowedable under water.

Change L1's current stun to also subtract 25 mana.

Change L3 to some sort of damaging attack, perhaps hydras.

!!!ran across the night day bug and i think i may of pinpointed it more. it occured when one team had the lurker and the other had psion. if u need me to reapeat earlier mention of the bug like when it occured and what i will just lmk.!!!

so far it seems the Phantom is best balanced. his l2 is lacking a bit and thats about it. his l4 may be a bit over powered though.

the Earth Demon really has no offensive spell which makes it pretty weak vs heros and buildings other than using its l4 to kill cannons.

*L4-imo killing cannons is a waste of time. id rather have some sort of dmg spell that i could also use vs the warp gates and the players. it really wouldnt have to be strong because the lurker already has 2 very nice stun spells which with the addition of a dmg l4 would make him pretty deadly.
*l2-his observer like many have said needs a bit of buffing maybe instead of giving it so much hp you coulg give it lik 2-3 hp and give it some insane armor. this would fix the problem of it being killed so easily and give it more of an escape feel or more hp if u intend to use it more like an offensive spell.
*l1-its pretty weak maybe instead you could dish out like 2-3 of them that could be layed as a trap almost. it would be usefull during day if you attacked melee but at night it could be a real pain if ur gona hero hunting.
*l3-needs to reflect its description more and only stun localized heros because atm it can really be used to trap, help an ally chase and kill or just annoy the other team. grossly over powered. ne game ive got l3 with lurk ive won. just need good communication from allies.

Psion seems to be very strong although i havent used it myself its very annoying.

*L1- mana drain seems to be strong and it has a very large radius. early game it eats away mana from opposing players. lategame it stops mana gain which is annoying especially with 300 mana. since its radius is so large any time they wish to fight they need l1 nehow and they practically keep you using what mana u have or u run out of range where u cant do ne dmg.

*L2-makes the psion and his allies virtually invincible. they can acccomplish ne task they wish using this method. needs a cool down period or maybe a period that makes them vunerable and yet unable to move to conteract its use.

Volt's l2 is very weak now. while i agree its l2 was strong in past i thought m3 had it nailed down pretty good. it was shorter duration but it could still be stacked. apparently u thought it still 2 strong so maybe a longer duration with cooldown would be warrented.

This.

But another fix could be changing its L1 to an Clay shield (whatever unit you still have available, maybe hero reaver), which makes the earth demon heal to full health every second (for that level of health) until the Clay shield is destroyed. There should not be more than one clay shield at a time.

You need to make the cannons spaced out a little bit from temple, so when you start alli is not blocking, I hate it when people go afk and block you.

1. No... that would completely mess up the fact that lurker needs to burrow to attack and thats the only thing that balances out the demon being able to earn double the amount of experience from splash.

2. Thats stupid. that would just make it overpowered.

3. Gay, Lurks level 3 doesnt need attacking spells when he is basically stun character.

4. idkyourgaylol


If anything needs changing is his level 4. maybe that can be a hydra based attack.

I don't understand the people who are saying the demon sucks at hero killing or temple sieging. Other then the fact that he can stun you for practically ever (if you know how to play as him) he should have decent attack and mana regen since the demon is one of the top grinders in all of TS. I always have 1.5x more EXP (assuming Im first on the eladerboard)than the second place person on the leaderboard. And if anyone hasnt used it yet, you can use his lvl 2 to dodge canon fire if you time it correctly.

If you think phantoms lvl 4 is kinda rigged then your probly forgetting it doesnt just cost 120 mana. It cost 120 + (25xS) where S is the number of times you casted spell one. For it to be of "Levul foar" quality you would need to waste around a total of 200 mana.

Also Phantoms hook is useless on slow characters since the scrouge moves faster then the enemy hero and you eventually move the scrouges location ahead of the hero. As of now the hook is only useful if u jsut leave the scrouge ontop of an enemy hero and dont move it. Maybe u should make it We are Friends style and have an auto homing scrouge that slowly tele's an enemy towards you?

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Feb 17 2009, 2:55 am by MadZombie.

two quick ideas Im in a rush.

1) killswitch incase of lagg or major flood. Kills everything and anything not hero but only used once meaning only one side can use it and it will cost 10 exp and 50 or something minerals.
2) temple spawn hero units once the gates fall. Once gates fall 1 or two hero units will spawn to help protect the base what yall think of that? if that doesnt work why not makea high temple guard pump out when the temple is gone as a last stand kinda thing


*btw I fuckin hate when dm blocks there spawn on bottom and then they all put there civs to the right spawn so then no one gets kills....it was faggish game...Fuck take that shit out*
anyways gtg

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Feb 17 2009, 4:08 pm by DaltonSerdynski.