Thanks for the constructive criticism Pigy. I appreciate how detailed your analysis of my suggestions was.

Faz-, your opinions are typical of someone who hasn't played this game enough to know how things balance out. If you take some time to look back at all the things we've already dicussed in these 42 pages, you'll notice people having the same objections. We seem to be going in a circle here. Discussion is always welcome, but before you post maybe ask yourself "Why wouldn't these other guys who have been playing since the beginning brought this up already?"

Are you sure you're playing the most recent version?

It's a shame that 4000 to the Temple isn't quite all that much anymore.

Agreed. HP/attack spam is used too often and is too powerful.

I actually have thought about adding a respawn delay. I'd appreciate other's thoughts on the subject.

The Assassin/Orb and DM L4 bugs may have happened during the older version, I do not recall if it had been updated at that point. It was within the past week and a half, though.

Moose, by delay do you mean in addition to having a limited number of lives, or as a replacement for the number of lives? My suggestion is to eliminate lives altogether, which you dismissed immediately when I suggested it to you personally, so I find it hard to believe you've 180'ed so fast.

CAFG, I've read through the majority of this topic and frankly there are very few serious and well thought out suggestions. Any suggestion I make I have already considered the ramifications of and feel that it WILL be more balanced and entertaining than before. You're more than welcome to give your examples of why you think a certain proposition I make is not a good choice, but dismissing them all as "newbie complaints" is just ignorant laziness.

As an attachment, this game pretty much summed up a large amount of the issues I've had with the game thus far (and you can test out the new text in replay function... =D): http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?fmymmmdamwz

Basically, I as marine go pure damage/hp spam to begin with. I abuse mines heavily, probably in one way that I doubt a lot of you are aware of that I discovered in this game by chance. One of my teammates is not the best player and upgrades spawn almost immediately. This isn't a problem with Zerglings, in fact it helps a lot. Then he upgrades spawn again... and again. Despite me (as an imbalanced and overpowered marine) holding back all three members of the other team in their base for over 3/4 of the game, the game ended rather pathetically. You're welcome to suggest fixes for the obvious problem(s), but to be honest I think it stems highly from things that I've already mentioned.

Thanks,
FaZ-

Faz:

1. I agree with this. I've had to storm my DA to death after the assassin turned it to neutral to prevent him from killing it, and I also got like 60xp from it, unless it was fixed.

2. No comment

3. No comment

4. Agree with marine, although there are good counters to that. Summoner with swarm, DM, Mech, warrior (to an extent), etc.

5. I don't care about ally killing. Some classes are supposed to ally kill (bat, dm, lm).

6. Assims are easy to kill. They only have 20 armor. Making it give 10 xp a kill would make them not worth the money to make.

7. Cannons too hard to hurt? I was under the impression they were too EASY to kill. Warrior and Mech can easily tear through it (mech spell 1..also mech can outrange both pylons in middle), firebat (spell 1), LM (spell 2), etc. I was thinking they should be boosted in defenses lol.

8. The infinite lives sounds good, but at the same time, it's bad. How will you ever be able to kill the enemy temple if you kill an enemy hero at their base? They'll just respawn endlessly and push you away easily in a high-end game where everyone is quite strong with decent mana and spell 4. It'd take way too long to kill temple with 3 enemy heroes constantly respawning in the same place, and on top of that you'll have people just suicide into the cannons, eventually killing them since dying wouldn't mean anything, even if you put in a trigger to reduce their money to 0. That wouldn't be enough. Simply spend all you can and suicide into cannons over and over until you kill it, or pylon.

I like the idea, but I don't think it'll work.

As for imbalances, everything is imbalanced when they enemy picks three classes that are not counters to your unit. If the enemy team picks three melee units, picking the LM is ideal simply because you won't need your other spells, just spam L1, but against a ranged enemy you aren't strong against all 3. Same with the marine. A smart warrior or assassin can kill the marine no matter the HP, as well as mech. I've easily taken down several HP-marines as mech. They may attack me, well I just switch to gol to take dmg, then they run and I switch back to vul and finish them all.

There's a counter to everything, so if a team picks three heroes all with a similar weakness, it's their fault Now, I marine in 2v2 is another story. Most of the time I just do pure attack at start, and I usually kill a hero in middle. Boom, 4 civs to go towards attack and that's game.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Nov 25 2008, 4:20 am by Alpr.

In addition to lives.

5000 agreements won't change the fact that I've done it already.

Easy for heroes to hurt. FaZ is talking about SPAWNS killing them. As of now... it's no chance for Broodlings, minor damage over a long time for Zerglings, a bit of damage for Marines, a bit more for Zealots, and RAPE from Hydralisks. We can make them easier for spawns and harder for (most) heroes by raising HP and reducing armor.

To Pigy_G and CAFG.. let's not have any put-downs now, it's a free world and everyone has right to their own opinion (yes, kinda contradictory that you guys can say in ur opinion that the comments suck. but let's not start that ) In fact, i'm VERY happy that so many ppl are contributing to the map.

To Faz-..
The reason why ppl may be eliminating ur ideas is that I've already talked about them and will fix them. Moose is currently messing with the map, and I'm just too busy to do the map now.

I KNOW that DM's L1 would need that little time lag, I already talked about that

I KNOW Marine's a tank, and me and moose has already addressed that, but I have already came up with a plan to fix it, which will be undisclosed until i finish the next ver
I KNOW that archer's L4 only works on stunned enemies. It's supposed to :S... In fact, its speed was already increased, but it's not supposed be the end-all player killer skill.. It's more of a big damager for buildings and spawns. Archer's L3 and L1 can already compensate.. and anyways, you can always get ur teamate to stun them.
I KNOW that fast mass assimilators are ez to get money. That's why it's a good strategy, and why teams must fight for them.
I KNOW that Cannons aren't ez to kill w/ spawns.... that's the whole point

NOW, to the things that I actually wasn't aware of:
The nested victory thing really depends on the heroes you choose and heroes you're fighting against, which is why you gotta plan and think beforehand. If your opponent's good at surviving (Like me ), then Nested victory is a go. Nested victory AND player killing both require teamwork, but of course the first requires a bit more. The only reason why Nested victories aren't often used is because the Spawns are definately lacking in strength, which will all but change in the upcoming version

AND, the allied killing, and ppl walling to not allow the other team get the kill. In essense, that's a cruel way to win, and you'd probably not wanna play against that gayass again, or beat the crap outta him anyway. IN some ways, the effort to wall ur own allies and then kill them compensates for just a normal battle.
HOWEVER, i know you wouldn't be satisfied, so I'm throwing in a new mechanism that would probably need to be discussed.

I want to make it so that your team's computer will give you experience as they get killscore. This will balance out the allied killing. This will also give incentive to make ur team's spawn stronger. Problem is that Cannons will soak up the kills a bit, but the just right amount of exp will be great, especially in latter game, where ppl should be using hydras ..
I want to incorporate this because i want the new spec ops to be able to build walls.... so yeah

The theory with infinite respawns is that you can gain tremendous advantage by not dying. You get free reign over the map and (provided that spawns actually become useful and able to deal damage) with the help of spawns, you will start to take down your enemy's defenses. As they respawn, you again go to a fair ground but you've gained an advantage, hence nested victories. In 30 seconds without a defensive hero imagine how much more efficient you could be at destroying structures and dealing damage to the temple. At the same time, sacrificing yourself for a big gain on the temple becomes viable, because your team actually might kill the enemy temple BEFORE all the players are either dead or trapped at the heal.

Something ideally needs to be done about heal camping as well, but I really can't think of an effective solution for that.

Re assims: I've seen marines often go immediately for a temple builder with starting civ. Each team has essentially 1 free assim location, and another couple of free ones depending on which waygates they take over. Within 5 minutes the map can be blanketed, and it gets to the point where going out of your way to kill it for 4 experience is costing you more in the time you waste leveling, while he's still breaking even with what the assimilators provide together. I'll get a more definite replay as an example, for evidence.

I look forward to the new version, Urine and Moose.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Nov 25 2008, 5:38 am by FaZ-.

If anything, I'd pin Dark Mage as the best support class.

Not as efficent as in the current version after I've killed a a hero that's died twice already.

Also, a slow class like Light Mage may blur the line between death and a form of transportation. Yes, we can have really long waits, but I don't think pubs are going to be a big fan of waiting two-three minutes for a respawn.

Yes, but in a 3v3 they only have 10 minerals to throw down an assim. A Marine without upgrades isn't much on the battlefield and if you're sucking up the mines with your hero's HP instead of him getting spawn kills, it should be relatively slow progress.

If the players won't leave their base, that's asking for assim spam. Then in comes the spawn flood and Battle Tanks and out goes the Temple. With the lower Temple armor, Hydralisks, Dragoons, and Goliaths all do decent damage to the temple. Of course, the heroes are drawing most of the fire... until enough spawn flood gets there, that is. (during which time you're continuing raids on the Temple anyway... and mana drain/cursing/etc the hero if you can) The upper spawns especially have quite a bit of HP (4 dragoons, while putting out 60+ EXP is also putting out 1800 shields and 1800 HP of 12 Armor sponge) and a lot of classes can't kill spawns faster than they generate. Even a spawn-win endgame against Mutant is no longer impossible.

Post has been edited 5 time(s), last time on Nov 25 2008, 6:13 am by Mini Moose 2707.

Just a recent thought that may or may not have already been touched upon in the course of this rather lengthy thread...I wish there was a system that allowed you to kill your own team's buildings and such. It would have to turn experience gains off while team-structure killing mode was enabled so that you couldn't feed off of your own buildings, and there would have to be a significant disincentive for killing your spawn gates in order to prevent the other team from gaining experience; I'm not entirely sure how that would work, but one way or another, a mode like that would be really nice to have available. Otherwise, if you thoroughly trap yourself (like if you end up pinned against the temple by team buildings), it's pretty much an automatic loss, which is really harsh for something that easy to do.

Oh I must have missed what you said about a timeframe for respawn faz, so nevermind that could work

If it is 30 seconds, I would suggest it'd be half that if there are enemies at YOUR temple. I'd think 30 seconds is way too long when your temple is being assaulted. As for a minute or more, that's extremely too long :s

Again, the respawn I suggested is 15 seconds plus 3-4 seconds per level. The later you die, the more effect it has, but never more than a minute or so, or 3 as you suggested Moose.

And obviously, Moose, but therein lies the only way to gain a real advantage over your opponent. You may have the advantage in experience, damage, upgrades, mana, etc., but if you can't finish your opponent off, the game isn't going anywhere. If he heal camps and tries to catch someone with whatever spell combo he has, he may end up winning. In fact, as shown in the replay I just posted, if your team upgrades spawns and the other team doesn't, you'll be outmanned in a matter of minutes. And the fact is that you can't do anything about it because your opponent is more than content sitting in the heal picking up kills. That's just illogical. Volt L2 and Assassin L4 are the only counters I'm aware of for this.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Nov 25 2008, 2:08 pm by FaZ-.

Hmm...Now that temple has so much hp, assault's lv 4 seems like the best choice for killing the temple. His nuke can even kill enemy heroes sitting at heal who didnt upgrade max hp high enough. Hopefully we'll see people use assault more often now.

not until his grenades have increased range+duration.

Yeah, grenade kinda blows. Needs a shorter fuse, larger area, and longer paralyze. Considering that grenade is using the same triggers as Bomber, which means you get four instantaneous shots of the same thing... Grenade kinda sucks.

Uploaded new version:

Unlimited lives sounds nice...

Moose, you know that if you cancel the nexus, you only recieve 75% of the value.

Either adjust it so it refunds 75%, or give players the extra 25%.

=o what'd you mean by cancelling pre-built spells?
Like if you're cursed, casting disable cancels that curse?

Awesome! Now if an enemy hero uses an ability before disable takes effect, it won't last long.

No, it means if you see the disable animation starting and spam 5 zealots, you lose them instead of casting your L1 a bunch of times.