You do realize more than half the cast has a better endgame than bat?

Warrior: IF he survives bat will never kill him period.
Volt: Yep once your pumped you own him, and yes its not hard to own firebat with volt
LM: Hard counter to bat endgame.
Mech: Fbat l1 owns you hard but PvP you still rape him and hes regulated to staying in base
Archer: Hardest counter, total rape.
Summoner: Once you are ready to go, bat can do nothing to stop you, except try to sniper you and mass reavers.
DT: Awkward matchup, but bat alone can not stop you from soloing base, he'd have to sit there all night webbing you to stop from soloing the base.

Rine can farm vs bat now, So so can mech. DM has always been owned by bat, nothing new.

Mutant: Cant farm.
Warrior: Can farm once he has L4, and its not hard to run back once you see dship.
Mech: Yes he will farm, just not in mechmode.
Volt: Yes he will farm.
Rine: Yes he can farm, now he has a dodge, especially since now Vessel is L2 he can watch bomber at all times and Dmatrix on command.
ARcher: Yes he can farm.
LM: Yes he can farm
Summoner: will always farm period vs bat barring a concentrated team effort. Stop being pubstar.
DM: IF he goes in on you mael him, then its up to your teamates. Hope you have good teamates.
Assassin: early midgame, however assassin is a gamebreaker and changes the natuer of the game, bat cannot hold him down forever. Assassin will farm, he will gank, and he will own.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jun 18 2010, 6:00 pm by DoLLe.

Thank you for the in depth analysis and support DoLLe.

Today I see 2 TS games with map name "Temple Siege M9T"

I dare not join, as I don't see a version T on the official topic!

T is for tournament.

I don't see where your need to put me down comes from, or why you do so.



This is assuming he has control of the gateway he is farming in, and even then, he knows where you are, and has the best crowd control in the game, so you can die pretty easily.
Does allow you to farm, until he switches to a lane without gateway control, or kills you because he and his team know where you are, and when.


Mech vs Firebat late game.... pretty much says it all. There are other matchups too.



This is assuming the fbat is better then the zealot, which is not taken into account on balance arguments.

You always assume everyone is playing their character to the fullest, which means zealot won't win.

You seem to forget that Warriors lategame comes alot longer then it would have were he laning elsewhere due to the nature of splash farming.


Except dmatrix cuts out a ton of your ability to hit him.


Good l4's keep you in the game as Fbat, as LM won't have much hp (espicially because he can barely farm early.)


Mech vs Fbat was never disputed, just the fact that a 32 second stun will have you dead if any competent dps is nearby.


I don't belive this was ever disputed. Still difficult to farm much of the creeps early if you don't have mana, but this goes away quick.



O, and kill all your minions in one of his stuns. (and one ultra at a time.)


This is a night vs day thing, however for fbat if the game goes this long your doing something wrong.


Although neither get every creep, or usually even half or over that many creeps.

OK.


True.


Because wasting 120 mana for a couple of creeps is feasible? Also what happpens when the dship is near the creeps?


And always under half the creeps in a wave.



Splash vs splash is odd... id call this even.


Watching bomber was never something i put out there, but ok. Also, he loses a ton of creeps per lane due to the nature of splash farming.


Waste mana to get creeps/harass, or get less creeps then the full wave, your choice.

Depends how far he gets along during the capturing base phase. If he can afford to waste mana to farm, he can farm. Otherwise, no. And if he isnt using l2 to farm, he is losing out on a ton of exp.

Summoner: will always farm period vs bat barring a concentrated team effort. Stop being pubstar.
I'm going to call the creepline (where the creeps fight) the LoS. On the LoS where the fbat is, summoner won't farm. That is what i was talking about. (interesting to note neither person talked about how i said summoners ability to farm and never stop without making you lose farm too was rediculous)

DM: IF he goes in on you mael him, then its up to your teamates. Hope you have good teamates.
Hope you have a mech/archer, and even then, with a l2 and a l1 he can get away from a lot.

Assassin: early midgame, however assassin is a gamebreaker and changes the natuer of the game, bat cannot hold him down forever. Assassin will farm, he will gank, and he will own.

Unless fbat holds him off from his team wiht dship while his team rapes assasins base during the day.

Things that were never mentioned, that i'm still wondering about:

How is the ability to get more then a full wave of creeps while denying your opponent of all the extra creeps you get balanced?

Damn, I really fail. I meant to post this before the tournament, but yeah, that obviously didn't happen.

Sometimes when I was blue in m9e, when picking random, I'd sometimes get 20 minerals. Something weird to check out.

EDIT: I like Minerals for random, because it's funny. And hey, if people want to stay at that lower echelon of skill by constantly picking random, and therefore not really getting better at any characters, then just let them. It's their own stupid choice to do so.



I agree. This is enough. I didn't read all of it to see what was decided, but ^this^ is all that's needed. And it's effective too.
Because when you get to the point where you're forced to camp the heal and you can't really walk out, probably 80% and upwards, you're going to end up losing.


Okay, I don't know if you were playing some sort of TS god, MEMEME, but I've never had a problem as big as what you're making it sound like, ever. =\
You make it sound like Assault is the exping apocalypse for all other characters, which I disagree with. Assault has plenty of counters. Archer and Mech counter right off the bat (Lol, no pun intended). I'd write more, but there's a storm, so I need to turn stuff off, so I'll say it later.

Post has been edited 4 time(s), last time on Jun 20 2010, 12:09 am by LoXs.

I don't see where your need to put me down comes from, or why you do so.



This is assuming he has control of the gateway he is farming in, and even then, he knows where you are, and has the best crowd control in the game, so you can die pretty easily.
Does allow you to farm, until he switches to a lane without gateway control, or kills you because he and his team know where you are, and when.


Mech vs Firebat late game.... pretty much says it all. There are other matchups too.



This is assuming the fbat is better then the zealot, which is not taken into account on balance arguments.

You always assume everyone is playing their character to the fullest, which means zealot won't win.

You seem to forget that Warriors lategame comes alot longer then it would have were he laning elsewhere due to the nature of splash farming.


Except dmatrix cuts out a ton of your ability to hit him.


Good l4's keep you in the game as Fbat, as LM won't have much hp (espicially because he can barely farm early.)


Mech vs Fbat was never disputed, just the fact that a 32 second stun will have you dead if any competent dps is nearby.


I don't belive this was ever disputed. Still difficult to farm much of the creeps early if you don't have mana, but this goes away quick.



O, and kill all your minions in one of his stuns. (and one ultra at a time.)


This is a night vs day thing, however for fbat if the game goes this long your doing something wrong.


Although neither get every creep, or usually even half or over that many creeps.

OK.


True.


Because wasting 120 mana for a couple of creeps is feasible? Also what happpens when the dship is near the creeps?


And always under half the creeps in a wave.



Splash vs splash is odd... id call this even.


Watching bomber was never something i put out there, but ok. Also, he loses a ton of creeps per lane due to the nature of splash farming.


Waste mana to get creeps/harass, or get less creeps then the full wave, your choice.

Depends how far he gets along during the capturing base phase. If he can afford to waste mana to farm, he can farm. Otherwise, no. And if he isnt using l2 to farm, he is losing out on a ton of exp.

Summoner: will always farm period vs bat barring a concentrated team effort. Stop being pubstar.
I'm going to call the creepline (where the creeps fight) the LoS. On the LoS where the fbat is, summoner won't farm. That is what i was talking about. (interesting to note neither person talked about how i said summoners ability to farm and never stop without making you lose farm too was rediculous)

DM: IF he goes in on you mael him, then its up to your teamates. Hope you have good teamates.
Hope you have a mech/archer, and even then, with a l2 and a l1 he can get away from a lot.

Assassin: early midgame, however assassin is a gamebreaker and changes the natuer of the game, bat cannot hold him down forever. Assassin will farm, he will gank, and he will own.

Unless fbat holds him off from his team wiht dship while his team rapes assasins base during the day.

Things that were never mentioned, that i'm still wondering about:

How is the ability to get more then a full wave of creeps while denying your opponent of all the extra creeps you get balanced?
What? Fbat has dmatrix? Dmatrix is gonna tank Volts L3+L4 combo at 10+ ups? what?

Bat cannot kill warrior lategame, its a waste of time. Btw, LM L1+L3 combo rapes anything in bats aresenal bigtime even his l4? Assuming he can get close enough to l4 without dying.

Archer will harass bat out of the lane. Cut it out.

Bat will lose to assassin endgame. Without nuke Assassin with DPS down his base. 1 night at 15ups takes off nearly half. Stop it. Now imagine 20+ ups.

Bat loses his ability to kill marine easyliy with his new L3 and dodge. Still has the upper hand tho because he destroys Marines L4 and his farm ability.

Maybe you are right about summoner vs bat one dropship will rape his lings...oohhh whoops endgame summoner just split and micro'd his forces, dAMN.

Seeing as you lost in the first round of the tourney to randoms probably reflects your playstyle, not to great. Maybe that is why you are complaining about bat. Without nuke is endgame suffers terrible outside of L3.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jun 19 2010, 1:23 am by DoLLe.

Let's simply ignore this "MEMEME" person, words of wisdom will not get thorough his skull...

If ts is an imbalanced game we won't be playing it right?



So someone confirm for me: Is the M9T version official or not?

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jun 19 2010, 9:22 am by close.ads.

M9T is indeed official. It's the version that was used for the tourny. That is what the 'T' stands for.

Can CAFG put it up in this topic?

http://www.staredit.net/?file=2220

Actually Bnet players thrive more from rigged and imbalanced maps than perfected ones.

Ok, i'll only reply to the stuff i don't agree with, and blanket the rest in this.

I never said fbat was great late game... he has a 32 second stun, which costs essentially 80 mana, and can have 16 seconds added for an additional 80 mana during itself. This, combined with the fact that LATEGAME you USUALLY aren't laning that much anymore, would seem to me that fbat can easily make up for not being able to 1v1 in a team game at the very end of the game.

Getting close enough to L4 without dieng is a problem, yes. However, should it go off, a lm who doesn't have a good amount hp will be dead, and one that does severly injured, ready for teammates to take on.

Bat vs Assasin = This game is not a 1v1 game.

Bat vs Summy = unless my base is dead or I have no teammates... Oh yeah, unless you mean dswarm which wont get off without summy dieng.

The Last Line: No offence to CAFG or Minimoose, but i spend my time with better AoS' then TS, because their better.

Outside of an easily 40+ second stun, because that isn't good enough to make a character? (and an added dweb, which is easily the best base killing ability in the game.

@close.ads

Unless you don't realize, ive noticed a decent amount of what i said was wrong. Most of the big points were not (against a good team, I can still see bat finding a lane where he can dual exp pretty easily, which in itself denies exp, and gets bat to his rape stun super early.) Might help that nobody has really addressed it, leaving me to believe most people believe it is true...but idk.

OR it can be that you are not good. Have you thought about that that your skills are so low that you fell to pub bat tactics in the first round. Wouldnt suprise me since olimar couldnt even choose properly.

You do realize that you are the only one crying about bat being rigged. Nobody else has a problem, so why are you the only one complaining about it?

Don't like TS then leave and think there are better AoS style maps then leave. Simple as that.

Thought we discussed this, L1+l3 rapes Everything bat has L1,L2,L3,L4. I'm not repeating myself again. Any bat L4 attempt on LM will result in minimal damage to LM and you suiciding. GG.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jun 21 2010, 6:01 am by DoLLe.

Unfortunately this is now necessary.

Any form of trash talking, saying what strategies are "pub star", saying who's noob and who's not, or saying who's better than who needs to move here - http://www.staredit.net/topic/6408/

Any glitch reports, feature suggestions, gameplay questions like "so how do I use medics old lv1?", praise, or complaints of brokenness may remain here.
I also feel like I need to explicitly address that last part, because it could turn into a loop hole. If someone says that "Summoner's lv4 is broken, warrior cant do anything" don't freak out at them. Don't worry, I'm not that easily influenced. I don't care if you've played them, and learned they are so bad that they don't even know what warriors lv4 does. If you have to respond to them, you can tell them "Use your lv4", but you can't tell them to get their mind correct and stfu. This is flame and against the site rules. The thing is multiple people are starting to do this, and if you're just at sen or op sen for temple siege, then it kinda gets me in trouble too since I'm kinda responsible for it.

Please continue the previous discussion in the link provided above, because I read it on a regular basis.

Lmao.

We're getting too far off of my main point here.

There are a few things you haven't disputed.

1. Aside from his hard counters (archer, mech, volt on this point, after a while) he can get his l3 off on someone, and have you sitting in a stun for freaking ever.

2. He can splash farm, which makes his farm x2 and his opponents farm x0, on a linear scale. Although only very rarely is it 2/0, its usually more like 1.7/.3 if he can farm well. Which, given his good mobility, he can usually do.

3. If he can splash farm, he gets his midgame before anyone else, because he is the best splashfarmer in the game early on. This means he can get his stun while people are just verging on getting their l2's, or people are just finished getting upgs depending on builds/fedness.

4. Should this happen, you are going to get raped.

is anything here wrong? Is it essentially five times harder for bat to farm then I am realizing?

Also, on a bigger note. How is the ability to both gain more farm then usual and deny the opponents of the farm you get balanced?

And, on a side note, although i don't believe this is imbalanced, it's just something I can't find an answer to right now.

How is summoners ability to farm while doing anything else, and as soon as he can get a little bit of farm, be almost unharassable, balanced?

I have a few ideas, but it doesn't add up completely to me.

Also, I realize that my first post was KINDA me raging and may have brought this whole thing offtopic. My apologies.

@CAFG: You appear to be watching this, but don't seem to have an opinion. Why not?

P.S. Although i quoted DoLLe, i really just want answers XD.

I got a little too offensive there too, my apologies.

My answer to MEMEME:

http://www.staredit.net/topic/6408/last/&skin=#special

Even though it's not one of your gripes, I'll say that flashbang has no reason to still be invincible, which only happened because of the severe nerfing it got. M10/C1 will have that change, but I don't see any other nerfs coming to it.

I need to report some balancing issue---the top is really too easy for people to steal. Ack, today I captured top with a 600 rine, no problem at all! The trick is to run in from the bottom, then run towards the large bridge---during this progress only the bottom canon will hit you. Next, run left, and up the western ramp, again, only 2 canons will shoot you, but with less shots. As long as you time your run, top is really, really easy to cap.

I'll try stealing it with lm with no upgrades at all---if I can pull it off, well it needs fixing!

If other team looked at the warp pads in their base, would have never happened. They were caught slipping.