I hate to say it, but letting go and accepting the world as it is (full of bull shit and never improving) is a very very liberating feeling. At least it was for me. Realizing that you, alone, are solely responsible for any pleasure you're going to feel is empowering. It's no longer up to any external source. The "hope" that it could somehow be better is what kept me down for so long.

There are hundreds of thousands of people that die everyday. Sure I wouldn't want to see a dead body on the shores but I've come to realization that if I ever see a dead body it wouldn't bug me because I too will be a corpse.

Like previously said, I wouldn't force anyone to live (which of course this couldn't ever be put into play). I just don't see the meaning of killing yourself. If anything, I would rather kill the people that made you feel like shit (not saying I would, but I would rather)

I would also say to myself, "My life doesn't suck. It's the people around me that suck."

It's still good to live life to its fullest. In fact, the woman who had recently took the first US face transplant is amazing. She would be the likeliest candidate to suicide before the face transplant and AFTER the face transplant. Even after the face transplant, there are uncomfortable internal bones and external appearance. And her eyelids did not change.

About the sentence "I would rather kill the people that made you feel like shit". I somewhat agree but if it's just "bullying", just keep yourself isolated away from them, since retaliation will bring consequences. Of course there are pricks and annoying bastards, ignoring them is enough. If there are any physical contact, then go ahead, kick their ass. But "killing" civilians that made you feel shit is something different, you will face 10 years in prison or may go through 25 to life. Well, at least in the United States.

About suicide, sometimes you cannot just let them go. Jumping on the train tracks, jumping off a bridge and landing on a freeway, walking on the third (High Voltage) rail, getting ran over by a vehicle, jumping off a building, climbing an electric fence, etc. is a selfish act and interrupts society. I would HATE to see people suicide on the new High Speed Rail system in California and across the United States, especially that the national project's cost is 10 times more expensive than Japanese High Speed Railway system. And by interrupting society will lead far more consequences to the society than the person who would suicide. Stabbing self, shooting self, poisoning self, hanging self, etc. is a different category that I'd probably assume you, Fierce, would agree on.

It depends. Is she scared or is she sure that she doesn't want to kill herself?
Some people could say that 10 yrs. in prison isn't a big deal. For me, however, I wouldn't want to go to prison because you could possibly end up being someone's female dog anyway. It just depends on the person I guess. If they are willing to get rid of the bully, they can do it 1 of 2 ways. I would prefer beating the bully's ass but that is just me out of 7 billion people on this planet.
I agree that someone should help people that feel they will suicide but TBH, it doesn't work. No matter what, you just don't get that feeling of being justified. I was once one of those kids that had thoughts of killing myself back in middle school. I was too scared to do it, but I told my parents and they got me help. I don't know if it was the fact that I knew I wouldn't do it or something but it still wouldn't stop the pressure or bullying.

Relevant to the help situation: I have a friend that hated his mom so much because she just pissed him off all the time. He pulled a knife on her and threatened to kill her. He was sent to a MI and he comes out and didn't change one thing about it. He still hates her and she left the family. There is no true help in the long run for most.

Life's too full of great things for me to ever THINK about committing suicide.

Like Mini game party right? ;o

Suicide should only be considered the last considered exit stragety. Some people fail to realise that and commit the act anyone, selfishly trying to attain some goal while they are gone (See suicide notes left next to the hung corpse).

Ive only thought of the act once in my life, though it swiftly turned into thoughts of murder, then fuck it Imma go to sleep, wake me up when the bullshit is over. I really dont think the act should be allowed by most because IM WORST off then they usually are (Poor and what not). Kinda brings me up to the attention grabbing of emo kids, but thats another story for another day.

I doubt she's scared. She lived through it and actually appreciated the face transplant and thanked the dead female donor's family.
It always depends on the person.
Middle School is one of the most typical reasons why people commits suicide. As a matter of fact, Seung-Hui Cho, who committed suicide after killing thirty two people in the Virginia Tech Massacre, is one of the victims that suffered in Middle School. And I'll admit, I too hated Middle School, but I got over the 'suicidal attitude' and dealt with it. I still suffer a depression (Neck is as stiff as steel) but I just deal with it and never brought the problem to friends. Seung-Hui Cho, like what you mentioned, murdered those who pissed him off. And people that oppose Seung-Hui Cho, absolutely does not understand what he had went through. If you can get through Middle School, never allow it to haunt you in the future.

About your friend hating his mom, that's just bad parenting. You didn't mention he would consider suicide, so that's good if he does not.

Suicide doesn't solve any problems. If you're gone, the problems still exist here in the real world, and by committing suicide, you make those problems worse.
Life is supposed to be shit. Get used to it.

Not the problems of "I feel shitty", or "I care about the problems in the 'real world'."

It's a permanent solution to a temporary problem, and incredibly selfish.

People are so misinformed when they think its all just fun and games. I find Seung-Hui Cho to be more of a victim than a murderer. Why? I believe a human doesn't have the capabilities to withstand their own mentality to the fullest. If you prove false to this statement look at the list: rapists, murderers, child molesters, etc. They're mentality just doesn't function the same way as a society wants it to be. Anyway, simply put, Seung-Hui Cho was more of a victim because of his mentality and the things that went throughout his mind because of the bullying.

For my friend, he thinks about suicide but he isn't sure if he would do it.

OC.
Don't take this the wrong way. I'm genuinely curious if you read the other posts. Anyways, that all depends on who's point of view your looking at it. If your the suicide-E then the problems will be gone period. They can't get worse, they don't exist. For the most part it's only a problem to you so as long as you don't exist, the problem shouldn't exist either(Your depressed over a girl but she doesn't feel the same way) though you can't apply that to everything.

Say my friend kills himself because he just sucks at life. he can't get any girl, I'm his only friend, and he's failing at school. The problem is that he can't get anything done or doesn't go for it right? But if he's dead who is left to take the problem upon themselves? No one. It might suck for me because he was my friend but even thought he is dead and the farthest he can be from solving the problem, what does it matter? He is dead. Does it matter if his corpse is that much farther away from being successful in life?

I just think that saying ALL suicide is wrong is wrong.

I don't know. I suffer from a pretty intense depression, and It gets annoying when I always hear my thoughts saying shit like "blah blah blah there is no point to living" "blah blah it'd be easier to just die" And I don't know why I hear these things almost everyday. They are easy enough to ignore, but it gets really crazy when I had a few hallucinations when I'll actually see myself committing the act. That freaks the hell out of me each time it happens, it's a lot harder to ignore, but I know that There is shit in life that I got to do, so no matter how much my head is going to bug me about it, Suicide isn't an option. Besides, The GF would be SO mad at me if I tried to do that shit... I'd prolly get Dumped ><

Suicide can be seen as a selfish act only by those who have lived privileged lives and have never experienced their limit of emotional coping. You can't blame a starving man for stealing food. Suicide is never wrong. The people who cause others to commit suicide are the ones at fault.

What about those folks who struggle alongside someone who committs suicide, only to be left worse off in life because of the suicidal's act? Take a poor family where the father committs suicide, for instance. Why can't the mother or children regard the act as selfish? They are just as ill-privileged as the father, and surely experience a great deal of stress; perhaps even more than the father because they are at the mercy of his paycheck. While he may be able to function without them, they might not be able to function without him.

I agree that oftentimes suicide may be a result of external pressures caused by other people, but it still remains to a significant degree the decision of the individual, that is, their choice. You can blame a starving man for stealing food if there's a soup kitchen nearby (unless he is mere inches from death, but that is a different case as it beomes a function not of choice but of necessity), and likewise you can blame someone for their own suicide. Suicide can be wrong, and I would argue that it is generally "wrong" as well, thought it must be taken into account the object to which we are referring to as right or wrong. If you mean simply that it is an act chosen by an individual with no lawful repercussions against any others, then perhaps it is "never wrong." But if you mean it as an escape from problems which have solutions to be sought, or as the premature ending of the opportunities afforded by life, then it can be wrong.

Reagardless of whether the suicide in question is right or wrong, it is nearly always a selfish act. It is committed to by an individual for the purpose of endig that individuals problems, not for the benefit of any others. There are exceptions; however, they are infrequent I believe: A serial killer committing suicide would benefit the lives of his potential victims by removing the threat to them, a prisoner of war might ensure the safety of his comrades by ending his life and protecting valuable secrets, and someone jumping in front of a bullet for someone else benefits the life of the person he wishes to save. Generally, these acts would be called self-sacrifice and not suicide however, the distinction being that they are sacrifices of the individual for the benefit of others, whereas suicide is the termination of one's own life to put a stop to his or her own problems, which often may have negative consequences for others. The privileges of "those who have lived privilieged lives and have never experienced their limit of emotional coping" do not negate the selfishness of the act, and are completely unrelated.

There is a third "class" of suicide I think, namely that which has no effect on anyone else. If you lived alone in the woods for 10 years and were bored as hell for lack of company and decided to kill yourself, I would be sympathetic to your plight. Such a situation has no negative or positive effect on anyone else, which sets this apart in my view as a third "class" (the other two being those types of suicide which result in 1) positive or 2) negative results for others).

In essence, whether you call suicide selfish or not, your perspective reduces to your consideration for others. If you believe suicide is not selfish, or that it is not wrong, I would predict that you have not taken into account the effect it has on those around you, or that you have and simply don't care for them. If you believe suicide is selfish or wrong, then I would surmise the opposite: that you have considered the effect on your family and friends. The third option is really inconsequential, because those accessing this site clearly are a part of some society, somewhere, to have internet access (though I suppose it is possible for someone to exist in society and have no family or friends, in which case, that is very sad ).

Assuming free will exists.

Because if it does not, we have no moral right to judge anyone.

@ Vrael: First of all, Self-sacrifice IS suicide.

You seem to have a made up definition for what suicide is and what cases of suicide are 'real' suicide or different types of suicide, but in reality, all suicide is the same. If one kills themselves, that's all there is to it. They're dead. It doesn't matter who it effects, or if Society was better off without them.

One thing I think is wrong with your logic is that in order to determine whether suicide is selfish or not, we must look at it from the suicide r's perspective. First of all, a large majority of suicide cases result from mental illness and are dragged out and fought against by the individual for a long time before finally taking over their life, causing them to end it. Put yourself in our perspective: If your brain put thoughts into your head about suicide, even if you weren't sad or upset. Even when you are feeling completely happy, a thought about suicide enters your head without warning. It feels like shit, and it leaves the person with a lot of guilt, wondering why they would think this, or if there is something wrong with them. A lot of people with these mental illnesses don't realize that it isn't their fault to have these thoughts.

Add to that a rarer case when people can actually have visions where they see themselves dying, or committing suicide. Some people, after dealing with this for years will hear voices in their head. Picture this: You're driving in your car and you have a hallucination that you just committed suicide. It scares the shit out of you. Then, to add to it you hear a voice saying something like "Go ahead and do it... There is no point in waiting any longer to die" Add that to the fact that 20 seconds ago, you were as happy as ever, and this came out of no where.

If someone must live like this, it is not selfish for them to commit the act. Most of the time, they don't have a choice in the matter. They are driven insane by their mental issues and pushed to the limit of mental tolerance.

It's not like we tell people about it either... Think of all the counsellings there would be to go through. The rumors about you, and the creepy looks. Over protection coming from people who use to treat you normally. The people around us have no idea what we experience, and what we see. So, if someone with a mental illness finally succumbs to suicide, the people around them see it as unexpected, 'un-like them', selfish, ect. But it's not.

What I guess I'm trying to explain is that a lot of people who commit suicide, don't do it because they want to. They do it because their brain gets pushed to the point where it tells you that there is no other option. I also figure that the way the media depicts suicide sort of ruins the image of it. Gearing it toward "OMG THERE IS NOTHING TO LIVE FOR!!! KILL MYSELF FOR ATTENTION", when really, that sort of scenario is rarely the case.

Correct. I operate generally under the assumpion that free will does exist. One note though, even if it doesn't exist we can still judge others based on their actions, we just can't hold them morally responsible.

Yes, I agree, I just believe it's a different "type" or "class" or whatever label you want to give it.

I didn't really make up any definitions, I simply divided existing suicides into different ways according to what I see. I believe someone killing themselves to protect someone else is quite different than someone killing themself because of stress. I agree that "they're dead," but I disagree when you say it doesn't matter who it affects and it doesn't matter if society was better off without them. By saying this you imply subtly that we should disregard all effects that one person has on another, throw down our law and government, and live in chaos. Now, you could intentionally be implying this, but I think you aren't, I just think you should consider a bit about the implications of holding suicide to a separate standard than we hold other acts to.

Very well, here is one example of what I think a suicide person may go someting through:
They are continuously tortured by the things around them, can find no peace of mind, may have to endure extreme physical pain constantly, suffer abuse from friends and family, or may have some other reason. When they finally jump, I would assume it is because of such reasons, and because they are doing it to escape them, because they are jumping for themselves, it is a selfish act. That is not to say that their act can't be justified, for there are limits to which we expect reasonable people to be able to cope with. If someone was in Stephen Hawking's position, though without the ability to make a special chair that can talk for them, and they committed suicide, yes, they did it for themselves, but I wouldn't blame them as having done something wrong.

If the suicide is a result of uncontrollable impulses within the brain, then I wouldn't hold the person responsible, nor would I call them selfish. This is a different case from what I had been talking about, I was talking about the case where the person chose to kill themselves, and was not forced to by a chemical imbalance within their brain.

If this is the case, then I wouldn't call it selfish.

So you are saying that if I committed suicide because I am overwhelmed by my emotional problems it is selfish?
I don't believe that to be true at all.

Sure, there are exceptions. Sometimes a heroin addict can simply stop taking heroin by sheer force of will, but everyone has different thresholds and capabilities. To think that everyone is "capable" of resisting the temptations of suicide is the same flawed reasoning that people use when they say, "Everyone has unlimited potential". This is false. When a man commits suicide, it logically follows that he has fallen over his capability for coping with thoughts of suicide. Sure, maybe a Zen-Buddhist monk in Tibet can withstand much more emotional pressure, but that monk is a separate being. It's true that you can teach an individual to be emotionally stronger, but if that individual hasn't gained that knowledge, he/she simply has a lower threshold.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on May 11 2009, 10:50 pm by PwnPirate.