Staredit Network > Forums > SC1 Map Showcase > Topic: Temple Siege v1
Temple Siege v1
Jul 10 2008, 8:31 am
By: ClansAreForGays
Pages: < 1 « 86 87 88 89 90140 >
 

Mar 26 2009, 8:59 pm UnholyUrine Post #1741



Quote
I feel that team splashing added much depth and innovation to the game.
I totally agree.. But I also agree that it is wrong to wall and then kill your own spawn, which increases your experience while depriving your foe's.

The only way anti-ally killing would work without disrupting the current game too much is to stop Dark Archon and Medic killing.. That probably affects the game the most in terms of cheating.... I shall implement this.
While walling with DA/Medics is untriggerable, the new terrain may help.. and I can change the Cannon Placements and all that so people can't wall (Unless with loads of medics.. =_=') with the protection of Cannons....

Faz-, rather than arguing against some of the game's somewhat controversial perks, I'd rather focus on the Broken stuff... Warrior's supposed to be high HP, and Mage's L2 team killing is emergent gameplay that isn't very broken (how else can LM compete? plus, in early/mid game, if he constantly uses L2 to just feed, he'll be shit outta luck to dodge things when an enemy comes at him.. one gotta preserve those mana points.. especially for LM.. and Don't argue about how L1 is OP... because, as we've all gotten used to it, it isn't)...
The truly broken stuff must have more emphasis, or else Moose and I wouldn't be able to pick it out from the other complaints unless we play the game several times and find that... Even then, the most prevalent and often emphasized changes will be changed.... I don't mind you guys spamming for those changes (just don't get urself banned).. it'd make me work on them earlier...

Also, avoid using things like "Very Good players playing this hero is OP".. That's the same as saying "You must change it so that Good players can't micro Mech"... good players = good players.. the heroes they pick = what they want to become... If u want to be a safe player, and want to be a GOOD safe player... then u'd pick the respective hero, and once u become good, you will be a very safe hero =D...

Well... maybe you're just thinking too much... I guess you feel that all of those points are broken... anywho, I'd need agreements from others (or myself) to really consider your ideas...
Obviously, I've said i'll change medic... but next time, think for a while, does the change enhance or decrease gameplay? ... Yes, you can argue that imbalance decreases gameplay... buut does rebalancing it outweight it?
Things like using a Muta and morphing it to make it explode decreases it.. One, it requires much more micro-management, as he must move the mutalisk and morph it which takes time.... The starting speed of the muta doesn't matter as much, as it takes time to detect the morph... 2. It has the same speed as the scourge... so it doesn't outrun anyone better than the scourge... 3. it looks ugly.. 4. My name is on it :P and finally 5. I already made a solution to that in V1.5, where the grenade can "sense" if it's over a foe and explode after 1 sec... (the drawback/gameplay depth now is that it'd activate over any units, including spawns)
This is same to the shared exp thing. that'd decrease the gameplay dramatically..

This is why I introduced the wraith as the 2ndary upgrade for mech.. This way, if a mech wants to stay as vulture but also have a good L2 to pick off heroes, they'd need to seperate their upgrades... same For L4, which is very fast and hurts quite a bit (if no spawns are there to distract ur wraiths)... See? This doesn't detract from the Gameplay, rather it adds more depth while balancing (sorta) at the same time. This is the type of solutions that I want...

And for DM, Someone b4 you.. or WAS it you? .. has suggested for the DM to spawn broodlings by herself.. there is one problem in that, which is it'd block the DM's movement, which is part of the curse for the Enemy... and IF u stand still to keep it at 8 broods.. well.. good luck surviving that lolol... Plus, whenever I see smone do that, I storm them so it kills/respawn broodlings + do damage XD... but w/e, there's lots of ways to do things when they're stuck... so standing still is not a very good option either..

I agree that DM is a bit weak, especially with the new spawn system... any ideas for that'd be greatly appreciated...

TY, tho, for all your input <3..
~Unholy



None.

Mar 26 2009, 9:31 pm Decency Post #1742



There isn't anything seriously broken anymore, at least not in Moose's versions, and that's what this thread is for. There's no real discussion on that. Obviously Marine+Dropship+Mine Drone is too powerful, that's been revamped. The only other huge issues are because of people teamkilling: DA/Medic blocking, Reaver spawnkilling, etc.

As for the mutalisk, it would be a huge improvement. Microing two units should not be shot down because it's too difficult, especially when if you don't want to, you can use it just like the scourge. It takes away nothing and adds a lot of versatility to the spell, which is already be made more powerful by the L2 slowing.

All of the changes I've suggested are replacements for spells that are almost never used and should thus be made to be more viable. Adding a guardian L3, for example, makes the L4's use much more promising because it's only another few civilians. It also makes companions more viable by making them easier to get to. They obviously should be made weaker, which should have happened anyway because of how much incredibly better they are than zealots in spawn incremental.

If you don't agree, that's fine, but you're going to need reasoning. Unholy, no offense, but all 5 of yours are worthless.

1. Addressed.
2. Faster Acceleration means that it absolutely will be better.
3. Who cares? It's better for the players to be able to distinguish between the L1 and L3 anyway.
4. You can have a new unit.
5. This isn't 1.5.



None.

Mar 26 2009, 10:29 pm UnholyUrine Post #1743



Let'z answer in your type of language

1. Okay.
2. No it doesn't. By the time the muta morphs, the hero'd be long gone... and also, I doubt the acceleration is that different.
3. Maybe you don't care. But people would.. They would go "hey, what'd I do with this muta? do I attack with it?" ... Plus, when you spawn it, it'd attack the enemy, making the muta have a lag time before it can be moved...
4. Considering that only Defiler is available........ well actually that's okay :O..
5. Which is exactly why this doesn't matter. The new system works fine too. It explodes quicker if the enemy's closer. It also is something new, where you can hide behind spawns to avoid the grenade....

and "No offense, Faz-, most of your suggestions were worthless", or has been addressed too. (j/k <3)
Anyway, some spells aren't used often, but that's only because people aren't changing their strategies.. Yes, there obviously are winning strategies, and strategies that are better than others.. But that doesn't mean the other way don't work...
The classic example I can come up with is when one side builds spawns.. and I mean a LOT of spawns..... like 5 Mystic Temples at least... At that point, there is no way to overrun the continual horde of dragoons. But the players continually fight and gain experience... The amount of experience they get would already put them ahead of the other heroes, but they will never come in contact with them as dragoons are raping their ass...
They could've simply built some spawns themselves... it really is just that simple.. I made TS like that in the first place, where there can always been a huge turn of the tables. Obviously, the spawn increments are a bit high, but I am planning to lower them (bunch them more together :O)as the new spawning system would allow spawns to do more dmg.

A Guardian as Archer's L3 works in terms of PvP... It's theme is supposed to be versatility, not like phantom and pvp... L3 is great for base storming, and same for L4.



None.

Mar 26 2009, 10:41 pm Pigy_G Post #1744



I think we're forgetting that kukulza cannot morph, so we'd need to change archers spells to kukulza and mutalisk to scourge. If hydralisk is still the ending spawn, thats really retarded. I think spawns should go on to keep pace with the heroes power levels continuously. Blocking with medics/dark archons is going to be really hard to fix, no matter what we do there will always be fags abusing the one unfixable flaw in the game, this is the reason there is that little thing called 'Ban player'. I already know many TS fags that do these types of things, we ban them. Not to advertise but these are the kind of people excluded from xTs, we're trying to build a community of honest siegers, pro's that dont have to resort to this douchefaggery. LM is fine IMO, it's the slowest fucking hero in the game, if it go's mana whore with reavers, most heroes can kill it in just a few hits by the time reaver whoring is a problem. DM Should get more than 8 broods if a player is not moving, oherwise his alli's can just come to assist him, especially since this is DM's only offensive damaging spell. You could change mutants L4 and give DM an ultalisk spell, or if there is an unused ultralisk just do that. I personally hardly ever use mutants L4, except maybe a dodge, even then it's very rare seeing as how fast mutant is and how short chaos mutation lasts.



None.

Mar 26 2009, 11:22 pm Decency Post #1745



True, Pigy, I didn't remember that. Still, it's just a simple find and replace for Mutalisk->Kukulza

Unholy, you don't wait until after the guardian finishes morphing, you detect the cocoon. It's near instantaneous. If a player is a newb and can't figure out to do what to do with a mutalisk that's called "Firebomb" that has explosion effects, they aren't going to figure out how to get a L3 spell, 80 mana, and how to cast it. As I've said, you don't NEED to morph it, if you want to wait 5 seconds like you would with a scourge, you can do so.

Because there are winning strategies, it really does mean that the other way doesn't work, at least not against skilled opponents. Most classes have at least 2 avenues, and definitely lategame variations , so it's not as huge of a deal as it can be. However, there's only one smart way to play LM, Summoner, Medic, and Archer in 90% or more of good games. That means the classes have significant room for improvement.

You counter spawns with spawns. This has been obvious for a while. If one team wants to take the PvP out of the game, whatever. I still don't really feel that spawns are a useful aspect of the game, especially Reavers.



None.

Mar 27 2009, 1:04 am rockz Post #1746

ᴄʜᴇᴇsᴇ ɪᴛ!

FYI, 107 acceleration > 67 acceleration.

Also, why is blocking/storming so bad, considering lm can completely take out both spawn sets with one reaver blast or one storm without blocking? It's a different way of accomplishing the same goal, yet people don't frown upon it. This is why we need who killed what detection. I say take deaths into consideration in the rewards formula, even if it has a tendency to glitch when fighting different units.

Also, fix the defiler bug.



"Parliamentary inquiry, Mr. Chairman - do we have to call the Gentleman a gentleman if he's not one?"

Mar 27 2009, 1:49 am Moose Post #1747

We live in a society.

Sorry guys, I haven't had very much time for TS these days. Probably not going to get some more for awhile, either. Figured I could lend a post, though. :P




Quote from Mini Moose 2707
Quote from name:FaZ-
Well, hopefully the razing score for such buildings is not the same as a warp gate or a cannon
I could really just add a massive bonus for Warp Gates only. You're going to be killing a max of 3. I could also add a team bonus like the ones for when Assimilators die.
I just had a horrible idea. What if the other team's spawns that would've come through their destroyed Warp Gates are just directly converted to XP for your team? LOL. For the record, no, I'm not going to actually do this.

Quote from name:FaZ-
Medic: L4 is way too powerful, L3 is way too weak. I gave my suggestion on this issue somewhere in the last 10-20 posts. There are many possibilities for making the L3 more powerful, but making the L4 heal based on the level ups of a character +20-30% seems obvious.
I'm going to look into the trigger work on this.

Quote from name:FaZ-
Warrior: I think that the warrior has far too much life. Now that every other character has been lowered, the Warrior is almost impossible to kill in the hands of a safe player. One thing that I think a lot of players don't realize is that the amount of life on a character doesn't affect how often you die, it affects how often you have to heal and thus how adventurous you can be. While the Warrior should definitely be among the highest of these, I think it's foolish to have it with such a significant advantage over all of the other players in the early game. A few HP upgrades off the start and it literally doubles other classes' HP values. This makes it a powerhouse, even for newbs, as it just soaks up damage. I would suggest lowering this to 5200 or so.
An HP cut maybe be in order. I'd want to increase the shields, though. (for L4, anyway)

Quote from name:FaZ-
Mutant: You rarely see L4 nowadays, because melee Mutants tend to not even bother with L3, so it's 6 (plus mana) civilians, which is a lot lategame. I'm not sure if that's a problem, it's definitely still an option for characters.
I have some of my own ideas for the Mutant's L4 to improve it. I'll talk about that later.

Quote from name:FaZ-
Archer: Still muta-spam heavy like hell. L2 needs 2 drones. I still think Companions->L2 and adding a Guardian-based L3 would be a good choice.
I'm not really a fan of Archer having three damage spells. I might change around Archer's L2 and L3 a bit... or I might wait another version. How about a Guardian L4?

Quote from name:FaZ-
Summoner: I am still partial to my idea of giving Broodlings +8 damage or so, and making a cap of 3 of them as the L2. Make the cap on Zerglings 6. Leave the L3, make it more simple, and people will start to use it more frequently. The broodlings would increase the micro required by the summoner a ton, keeping the same upgrades. This wouldn't affect the spawns.
You might be on to something. However, I'm going to save Summoner revamps for a later version.

Quote from name:FaZ-
Dark Mage: The L4 kind of sucks, now that Unholy revealed that it only spawns 8 broodlings if you just stand still. However, giving the summoner the L2 broodlings such a big bonus would obviously transfer to the DM's Broodlings too. That means that it should be changed to ALWAYS spawn 8 broodlings. (If there are no enemies around, it should just summon them on the DM). This way newbs aren't so vulnerable.
Usually people want to move because the Broodlings tend to kill them. Of course, that means someone with enough armor can just sit in the middle of 8 Broodlings until the curse wears off. IMO, it should just keep spawning Broodlings on the person and not stop at 8 if they don't move. ;o

Quote from name:FaZ-
Mech: The vulture is overpowered. I think your L2/L3 swap might be the best choice in order to fix this problem.
I'm probably going to hold off for another version on this.

Quote from name:FaZ-
- I dislike the "big" bonuses when you get far up in leveling something. Heals become by 6%, for example, and mana becomes +50. I would like to see this balanced, it rewards people who focus on doing one thing, such as LM L2 Reavers or Zealot HP.
Mana becomes +50 for a whopping one final upgrade. Whoopty doo.

Quote from xYoshix
I feel that there is no need to go through the whole making of the new heroes.
M3 was fine the way it was. The only change it needed was the assims.
You might as well make "Temple Siege 2" with brand new heroes and terrain.
Right now, it seems like all heroes are going to get changed when there really isnt a need, IMO.
There is always a way to defeat a hero- even if you have to change the "build".
You need a stronger argument than tradition to prevent changes. There are many balance issues with the hero setup. Just because a hero can be countered is not enough and does not mean the class is balanced. In addition, there would ideally be multiple viable builds available to each hero. (As FaZ- has pointed out.)

Quote from UnholyUrine
Also, avoid using things like "Very Good players playing this hero is OP".. That's the same as saying "You must change it so that Good players can't micro Mech"... good players = good players.. the heroes they pick = what they want to become... If u want to be a safe player, and want to be a GOOD safe player... then u'd pick the respective hero, and once u become good, you will be a very safe hero =D...
"Very Good players playing this hero is OP" is precisely what should matter. Balancing should always assume that the players are competent and relatively skilled. That is much different from "You must change it so that Good players can't micro Mech," which does not have much credibility as a suggestion.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Mar 27 2009, 1:57 am by Mini Moose 2707.




Mar 27 2009, 2:08 am rockz Post #1748

ᴄʜᴇᴇsᴇ ɪᴛ!

Quote from Mini Moose 2707
"Very Good players playing this hero is OP" is precisely what should matter. Balancing should always assume that the players are competent and relatively skilled. That is much different from "You must change it so that Good players can't micro Mech," which does not have much credibility as a suggestion.
I agree. Assault right now is OP in the hands of an expert player. In the hands of anyone else it's terrible.



"Parliamentary inquiry, Mr. Chairman - do we have to call the Gentleman a gentleman if he's not one?"

Mar 27 2009, 2:21 am Moose Post #1749

We live in a society.

When you're done knocking Assault, do both of us a favor and read my previous posts containing the changes already implemented in the next version that will be released.




Mar 27 2009, 5:27 am Iceman16 Post #1750



I don't understand all the hate to Mutant "not being POWERFUL ENOUGH". I know for a fact that a pro Mutant player can COMPLETELY rape ALL but 4 heroes (maybe less). Those heroes being Light Mage (can't touch because of L1+L2 late game), Assault (ONLY because of dropship), Mech (although head on 1v1 I would say Mutant would win), and Medic (ONLY because of disable). Everything else, a GOOD mutant will be able to literally annihilate. And if you also notice, NONE of the heroes that can beat mutant can kill mass spawn effectively. Therefore Mutant can quite easily be called the most powerful heroes because of it's spells AND spawn effectiveness put together. It even completely dominates Spec Ops and its L4 (probably one of the most powerful spells), because of the inability for spec ops to upgrade mines, and because mutant is one of the very FEW that will beat spec ops in a spawn battle. There is a difference between a hero being too weak, and YOUR PLAYING being too weak. Remember, one of the differences between a pro and a newb is that a pro will call a hero too strong while the newb will say it is too weak.



None.

Mar 27 2009, 6:28 am Decency Post #1751



I don't think anyone has said Mutant is not powerful enough. Please read the topic.



None.

Mar 27 2009, 7:00 am Iceman16 Post #1752



People are complaining that its L4 isn't good enough, which means they think Mutant needs improving. I would suggest you actually read what people are saying FaZ-.



None.

Mar 27 2009, 7:25 am FlashBeer Post #1753



The l4 for mutant is weak. However, it is a great hero besides that. A lot of people don't use it's l4, and it still can compete with most of the other heroes.



None.

Mar 27 2009, 11:39 am Moose Post #1754

We live in a society.

Quote from Iceman16
People are complaining that its L4 isn't good enough, which means they think Mutant needs improving. I would suggest you actually read what people are saying FaZ-.
To say Mutant "needs improvement" implies that the class has multiple inherent deficencies, whereas what actually needs improvement is one small facet. (the L4)




Mar 27 2009, 12:31 pm Pigy_G Post #1755



This is what i've been saying, the mutants L4 is up there with the rarest L4's seen ever, like warriors, summoners, LM ect. It needs to be changed, right now it's L3 is godly compared to it's l4, and personally I think it's L2 is stronger aswell. L4 needs complete overhaul or changing.



None.

Mar 27 2009, 1:45 pm Lt.Church Post #1756



i really think medic and dark mage need a boost, ive gotten them teamed up in 2v2 situations and it was near impossible to win, the two opponents were mech and something, the other was LM and summoner, now you'd think medic could deal with LM but the summoner always had a group of 6 lings with the LM so if i tried to run up to disable LM then i'd get hit my 6 lings with +9 ups for 28damage each hit, which could surround with good micro...

It isnt very fair how easily summoner can milk more than one lane , the less players ingame the cheaper it gets as it gets harder to stop and he has more lanes to take,it'd be nice if disable had some kind of weak stun or something on summons and spawn or darkmage's curses effected summons. Because honestly a summoner with 4 lings and good micro can own a dark orb for like 14exp, then send in more to mob the DM who cant do anything at this point.



None.

Mar 27 2009, 2:21 pm Pigy_G Post #1757



Everyone knows summoner is OP in anything except 3v3.



None.

Mar 27 2009, 9:16 pm Iceman16 Post #1758



Quote from Mini Moose 2707
Quote from Iceman16
People are complaining that its L4 isn't good enough, which means they think Mutant needs improving. I would suggest you actually read what people are saying FaZ-.
To say Mutant "needs improvement" implies that the class has multiple inherent deficencies, whereas what actually needs improvement is one small facet. (the L4)
So you are saying if it needed one thing to be improved it is NOTHING like saying two things need to be improved? The Mutant's L4 does NOT need to be improved, it is already very powerful as it is. This is what happened to Spec Ops just because it had a bad L2 (even though its L4 plenty made up for it). So then it was given an outrageously powerful L2 and L3, that when combined with its L4 allows it to rape literally EVERY hero (maybe of the exception of Mutant). The only spell that was actually more USEFUL was its L1. There's a difference between a spell needing to be more useful and needing to be more powerful, and the Mutant's L4 does not need to be more powerful.

Quote from Pigy_G
This is what i've been saying, the mutants L4 is up there with the rarest L4's seen ever, like warriors, summoners, LM ect. It needs to be changed, right now it's L3 is godly compared to it's l4, and personally I think it's L2 is stronger aswell. L4 needs complete overhaul or changing.

Summoner's L4 and Warrior's are actually example of USEFUL spells, if anything the LM's final needs to be changed not the Mutant's.

Quote from Lt.Church
i really think medic and dark mage need a boost, ive gotten them teamed up in 2v2 situations and it was near impossible to win, the two opponents were mech and something, the other was LM and summoner, now you'd think medic could deal with LM but the summoner always had a group of 6 lings with the LM so if i tried to run up to disable LM then i'd get hit my 6 lings with +9 ups for 28damage each hit, which could surround with good micro...

It isnt very fair how easily summoner can milk more than one lane , the less players ingame the cheaper it gets as it gets harder to stop and he has more lanes to take,it'd be nice if disable had some kind of weak stun or something on summons and spawn or darkmage's curses effected summons. Because honestly a summoner with 4 lings and good micro can own a dark orb for like 14exp, then send in more to mob the DM who cant do anything at this point.

The heroes are pretty much ordered from what can kill mass spawn easily and what can't. Medic and DM are obviously at the bottom of this chain and therefore would rarely ever win a game alone, let alone against a Summoner. Btw, it won't have much effect if a Summoner takes all 3 lanes, either your heroes counter him or they don't. Also a 2v2 version needs to be made with only two lanes so at least summoning heroes won't have that epic advantage.



None.

Mar 27 2009, 10:12 pm ClansAreForGays Post #1759



Spawn blocking becomes a real problem only when people start doing it behind their cannons or if the single lane manages to block more than 1 gate.

Using a system that only cares about unit the computers unit deaths is stupid. That would mean that even if the spawns ran into cannons, you'd get the same exp.

The most most hosted and well received TS is still MT. Followed by v1.5, with third being a tie between M3 and M4.


CAFG's Journal: New TS version this morning, Firebat lost his dropship. This game is afraid of me. I have seen its true face. The lanes are extended gutters and the gutters are full of broods and when the drains finally scab over, all the vermin will be stormed. The accumulated filth of all their team killing and version changes will foam up about their waists and all the Lurker-whores and self-nukers will look up and shout "Save Us! Give us another TS tourny!".....and I'll look down, and whisper, "No".




Mar 28 2009, 5:38 am Moose Post #1760

We live in a society.

Quote from Iceman16
This is what happened to Spec Ops just because it had a bad L2 (even though its L4 plenty made up for it). So then it was given an outrageously powerful L2 and L3, that when combined with its L4 allows it to rape literally EVERY hero (maybe of the exception of Mutant).
Special Ops has already been changed as I have detailed his changes in this topic already.

Quote from Iceman16
There's a difference between a spell needing to be more useful and needing to be more powerful, and the Mutant's L4 does not need to be more powerful.
As FaZ- has pointed out, the fact still remains that nobody has said Mutant's L4 is not powerful enough.
Since you've made the distinction between "powerful" and "useful", I would like to make the distinction that when a spell is improved it does not necessarily become more powerful. A spell is also improved when it becomes more useful.



As for Summoner.... if he's milking all 3 lanes, cut spawns to one of the lanes.
If you're there killing his summons, you stop feeding equivalent to two lanes.
If you're not there... well, he was going to get two lanes of XP anyway. (or just move the spawns back)

Post has been edited 4 time(s), last time on Mar 28 2009, 5:47 am by Mini Moose 2707.




Options
Pages: < 1 « 86 87 88 89 90140 >
  Back to forum
Please log in to reply to this topic or to report it.
Members in this topic: None.
[12:30 am]
ClansAreForGays -- When you join a pub lobby because you see 7/8 players, but then realize host is bating you with computers. :flamer: :flamer:
[11:48 pm]
O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- :wob:
[2024-10-30. : 6:24 pm]
Ultraviolet -- :wob:
[2024-10-29. : 4:33 pm]
Vrael -- :wob:
[2024-10-29. : 1:32 pm]
Zoan -- :wob:
[2024-10-28. : 5:21 pm]
Ultraviolet -- :wob:
[2024-10-27. : 4:34 pm]
jjf28 -- :wob:
[2024-10-27. : 9:01 am]
Zycorax -- :wob:
[2024-10-27. : 3:31 am]
RIVE -- :wob:
[2024-10-26. : 7:12 pm]
Ultraviolet -- :wob:
Please log in to shout.


Members Online: lil-Inferno