On the note of mines (which IMO, do not need to be changed), the final burst on the Mine Drone spawns mines that are not invincible.
I have also never experienced that tank problem.

Just played a game, and found that the lurker upgrades for the mutant are way too high.

It would do you some good to read the other posts in the topic before posting.

>:o okay okay i'm working on it.. Can't I have a life while making maps too? :C
And yeah.. It'll take me some time to get the new version done ( but I promise I won't be like Blizzard )... Because I finished my job and want a vacation... Also, I failed to keep note which death count does which in my later triggers (The scrap paper which I initially used ran out of space lol ).. and Besides, I need to test the new changes, and figure out a way to balance the Nuke (I don't wanna remove it :C)

So Yeah.. ..
BTW just for fun.. lemme give you a list of Random Bugs/Imbalances that I've found and fixed =D

• P2 Special Ops has a location centering glitch.. No Spells affect him
  
• Warrior's spell 2 has too much Upgrade bonus.. I made it +2 now.
  
• Fixed the vulture speed. (Why the hell does Jizz Rainer not have a fast bike?)
  
• Tanks get +5 upgrades...
  
• Found that P2's spawn moving trigger had a bug (I completely missed a trigger!)
  
• Changed Summoner's first spell to 2 zlings, but zlings only get +1 per upgrade (not sure if this'll work out)
  
• Changed Abyssal Demon max to 2. (Sorry summoner fans)
  
• Changed Infested Terran's attack to 200 (they do half dmg to organic units)
  
• Added Summoning Cap for most units. (sci-ves = 4, ghost = 1)
  
• Made Spawn units from Marine and Up Stronger, so that Spawn units may be "Strategically Viable." (Fancy words from Moose)
  
• Mealstorm now costs 100.. and re-summoning Dark Orb gives it only 50% E (rather than 100% before)
  
• Ensnare now costs 40 E.
  
• Lurker upgrades has been fixed to +3
  
• Archer's Companion will have +2, max 8 for now.., but that'll need to be tested
  
• Medics = 120 Hp and 10 armor.
  
• Giving p7 n p8 5 shields to start with... and Cannons have 2500 + 1000 shields and 40 dmg, and costs 80. Pylon stays the same.
  
• Gonna make most spawn buildings more HP/Armor (probably 20 armor)
  
• Fiine. Dark Archon now has 400 shields
  
• Volt's lvl4, the power Overwhelming, will have a 20 second Cooldown, and will be +8 bonus dmg. I don't know if I should allow people to use other spells while being Supercharged..
  
• Volt's lvl1 has been changed. It will paralyze for 4 seconds, and drain 15 mana, but ONLY ONE Scourge can affect you at ONE TIME.
  
• Dark mage's Dark Orb will no longer reheal when re-summoned. It will still get 50% E (100)
  

And, as I said, ima use SEN as my checklist
ALSO, these are all just Changes that are under testing... They are NOT Final.. so don't wry

And I will always remember this: "Balancing is when the people who takes more effort to win, will win"

Post has been edited 9 time(s), last time on Aug 24 2008, 4:56 pm by UnholyUrine.

I very disappointed with your summoner change. All you need to do was make attack speed boost cost 100.

I really hope archer's companion doesn't still only get +1.

I'm also sad you didn't choose to balance dark orb in a different way(making the DA fragile).

Finally, the nuke isn't broken. Just make it cost 100 gas, and maybe 10 minerals.

I'm worried you are taking horrible balance advice from USwest players. I've played them, and even the ones in your clan suck HARD. Pop in around east some time.

What about the horribly underpowered +2 upgrade on summoned sieged tanks?

Ouch.

Hopefully they'll be worth the XP they give. I do hope you remembered Mystic Warrior is used for the Light Mage's third spell, too.

Does it still have 500 shields? Keep this, but still, reduce the shields.

I'm curious as to what "fixed" means. Ambiguity like this scares me, because now I'm afraid I might see +1 or something.

I also hope that your list is incomplete. I'm tempted to write out a consolidated complete checklist of what I would do to the map.

On the subject of "new" bugs, I've found one. Certain units that explode for effects on spells haven't died at one time or another. I had an Archer running around with a Dropship and another guy with a Devourer. The Archer one hilariously backfired though, because he instantly died from casting a spell inside the Dropship.
There is also inconsistency between the tutorial information and the buildings in the hero selection (6% or 10% mana speed, 25 or 35 minerals, who-knows-what% HP).

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Aug 21 2008, 4:11 am by Mini Moose 2707.

Exactly, they're not that great as is, they're annoying to say the least, maybe a very high cap on them would be okay, but all viet does is spam other base with mines, this slows em down and damages them eventually, then people would just come in and rape them, like it's not that it's unfair or anything, but it's definitely annoying to see the whole map covered in mines... Not only that but it's pointless, a lot of them glitch out and dont even move anyways...

GENERAL
- Remove free Civilian for tutorial completion.
- Remove Civilians on player elimination, in addition to removing P12 civs when people drop or leave.
- Give pylons controlled by players who drop/leave/get eliminated back to the appropriate base.
- Fix grammar and spelling errors, text inconsistencies.
- Fix placement of location on the Spell Level upgrade for easier purchasing.
- Improve advanced spawning levels such that the challenge they provide to the other team is more equivalent to the experience they give.
- Make HP upgrade percentage amounts consistent and truthful.
- Decrease cost of Photon Cannons from 120 to 80.
- Decrease cost of Pylon from 20 to 15.
- Increase and shield HP amounts for Protoss Buildings by 25% (excluding Pylon and Photon Cannons.) Increase Pylon's HP from 300 to 500.
- Start White and Yellow off with 3 or 5 shield upgrades.
- Change P6 Brown to a more minimap friendly color.
- Reset Mana to 0 upon death. (Hi, I just died, but fortunately I have mana from BEYOND THE GRAVE.) In addition, you may or may not want to have death remove Summoner's Ultra/Lings, Dark Archons, Companion Archers, and/or Nuclear Ghosts, etc.
- Get rid of our ability to upgrade Protoss Air.
- Move the Temple Builder purchase away from the heal so one can micro to save his base without blowing his cash.
- Make sure spell effect units that die always die. IE, no Archers flying about in Dropships or random Devourers.
- Give players a Map Revealer in the center of the skill point are for vision at all times.

TERRAIN
- Improve building placement for north base to protect the geyser closest to the top path exit.
- Clogging problems for north base spawns in the top right base, they go up the ramp and back down the same one. This conflicting pathing leads to problems.
- There are minor building placement changes I would make in the bases that I am too lazy to detail. Generally, the bases need to be more defensible.
- There is also a lot of unused terrain on the borders of the map. Whether or not you want to get this involved is your choice.

ARCHER
- Increase attack upgrade of Archer's Companions from +1 to +2. Maximum of 12.
- Apparently we can upgrade Hydra speed and range for the Companions. Might want to move that building near the other upgrades so it isn't a big secret.
- Remove his buildings when he is eliminated.
- Increase cost of Spore/Sunken colonies from 0 gas to 20 gas, double build time.
- Increase cost of Hatchery from 0 gas to 40 gas.
- Still difficult to attack hit things with the fourth spell, it charges up for so long. How about a Guardian power arrow that does around 250 + 15 for three shots?
- Disable Overlord speed upgrade.

ASSASSIN
- Make it visible on the beacon for the hero selection.
- Decrease duration for the third spell slightly. Logically, one cannot assassinate a building, so why can this guy do it so easily?

ASSAULT
- Decrease HP on Bomber from 550 to 350. IMO, he just really shouldn't be able to hide in the Bomber all the time. Classes without air attacks can really get cheesed by the Assault class, and it's frustrating. I'm ready to say make the Bomber disappear after awhile. Or just not give it bombs at all and call it a Transport.
(On that subject, I was toying with the implications of purchasable Transports for 50 minerals or so. They would, of course, get less HP than the Bomber's transport. This could open a whole new lot of strategy, in addition to bringing some otherwise "unused" terrain on the edges into use.)
- Remove Nuclear Silos after hero selection for non-Assault players.
- Maximum of 1 Nuclear Ghost.
- Increase cost of Nuclear Missile from 0m/50g to 10m/100g.

DARK MAGE
- Dark Mage has too much HP. Especially since she's a "mage". The other Mage in this game only gets 2800, Dark Mage gets almost double that. I would decrease it to 5000, or even 4500.
- Increase Maelstrom cost from 65 to 100 and/or spawn Dark Archon at lower energy. Or ooh, you can switch the first and second spells and decrease the duration of that Curse of Weakness. IMO, the class doesn't have a Mage "dynamic" at the moment right now. I'm assuming you don't want to do such drastic changes, but that would make for an interesting revamp.
- Decrease Dark Archon's shields from 500 to 200.
- Increase cost of Ensnare from 20 to 50... maybe even 60 or 70.

LIGHT MAGE
- Increase HP from 2800 to 3000.

MECH
- The mech doesn't really need more HP. Given that it can change between the various forms, it currently has a maximum of 11,500 HP available to it. That's 5000 more than Warrior!
- Increase attack upgrade for sieged tank spells from +2 to +6.
- Give the speed upgrade to the Vulture form, but decrease its HP from 3200 to 3000 or 2800 to compensate.
- Make Vultures on Rail Gun change out slower such that they are all able to attack.

MEDIC
- Increase Healing Spirit (Medic) HP from 90 to 150. Maximum of 12. (why anyone would max Meds anyway, I dunno.)
- Boost range and duration of Disable.

MUTANT
- Decrease attack upgrade for Lurker spell from +4 to +3 -OR- change Lurker's base attack from 35 to 15.
- Increase duration of Transform (final spell).

SPECIAL OPS
- Final burst of mines from Mine Drone (final spell) is not invincible.
- Add maximum amount for summoning Science Vessels (4) and SCV (2).
- Increase HP of Turrets from 100 to 250.
- Increase HP of SCV from 60 to 100.

SUMMONER
-Increase cost of Adrenal Glands (Zergling Attack speed) to 80 or 100. Leave attack upgrades for Zerglings at +2.

VOLT
- Decrase attack upgrade of Supercharged Volt (final spell) from +12 to +8.
- Slightly decrease duration of final spell.
- Any way to make the Magnetic Charge not slow down the Volt? If someone is out of range, you just look dumb and feel dumber.
- Decrease sensitivity for first spell's hit detection. (I hope the location for heroes getting hit isn't a full 1x1 tile size). Reduce mana drainage per hit to 5 and duration of paralysis.

WARRIOR
-Allow Warrior to cast other spells during his defensive shield spells.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Aug 21 2008, 12:57 pm by Mini Moose 2707.

wow... well I have a lot of things that I agree and disagree with.. and for those that I disagree with I have my reasons.

But i'll just keep updating that post Above here (post #104.. wow so many posts?!) About further changes.. Also, I just randomly change little stuff without remembering them usually (Things like the Location on the Level up Spells), so the checklist is incomplete.

But ONE thing that I definately must say is that Dark Orb has so much HP is because it gives a HELL lot of Exp (Killscore for Dark archon = 2000 ? or 3000.. smwhere there).. And it's the same for Medics (which I made 120 hp with 10 armor) So, the Dark Orb's going to stay about 400-500 shields + HP

3000? Not even close, it's 1300.

10 armor? Ehhh... I'd say just keep the old armor but push the HP to 150.

i think dark orb hp is about right a few ways to easily get mad exp when fighting dark mage, cripple/magnetic/emp the dark orb and repeat every resummon XD

This.

My points:
1. It's a wonderful strategy until you're not Special Ops.
2. Science Vessel doesn't do any good in the early game. DA is summoned as a first spell and if you want the Science Vessel you're shit out of luck until you have the third spell.
3. The DA is also a counter for Science Vessel because it has Feedback. If you're too slow, forget the EMP.

1. The idea is to make a team where you can work together, if your team doesn't get rine, pick something else that can do a good chunk of damage, or something that can counter rine, but the idea is be strategic in your choices, you know this...
2. Agreed.
3. Hate to throw it out there, but this is based purely on the persons skill, if they're not capable of doing EMP fast enough, then that's their fault, not the balances fault really...

I never claimed there was a balance problem. What you're saying is my point. Also, keep in mind that Feedback outranges EMP.

Anyway, I'm tempted to say invincibility for Light Mage's first spell is overpowered. It's spammablility is on the same level as Volt's. I also want to say that Light Mage's L3 doesn't seem worth it. Perhaps the invincibility should be moved to L3 and lengthened a bit. I also feel the summoned Dragoon's damage should be upgraded a bit because it is explosive type, unlike the L1 spells. Given that there are only 2 heavy and 1 medium class, it needs to be more powerful for hitting the majority of classes, which have light armor. (range isn't terribly much compensation) However, since the next version features increased power for advanced spawn units, which includes those Dragoons, this problem may be fixed already. Regardless, as things are now I still think I'd be better off spamming the L1 spell three times instead of casting L3.

Let me start with Moose. Anything I don't comment on I completely agree with, or couldn't care either way.

All of this is not worth demanding change, and barely worth mentioning. I think we should at least show some restraint in our suggestions in what should and shouldn't be in the next version.

I think even that kind of boost would be too modest. Plyons should always be stronger than their cannons. It should be about as hard to kill as 1.5 cannons, but currently it is always a better idea to go after to pylon over a cannon. I can't give exact number because I am unsure about the difference in armor between the 2 buildings, but a pylon should be much tougher to kill than a cannon.

I find them too defensible. I miss the v1 setup where you could sneak around much more freely and gank player at night that were running back for a heal. You can't do that anymore

Just wanted to back you up on this idea. Makes so much more sense.

If by slightly you mean by 1 second? Do not mess with assassin. You're stupid and I hate you.

You went from reasonable, to bat shit crazy in less than 10 seconds. DO NOT ADD TRANSPORTS(and for just 50 minerals... ). I guess you could reduce it's hp to like 400 something, but I don't like 350.

I couldn't really get behind anything else you said about the dark mage. I just think we should make her dark orb incredibly weak and killable(100 shields 25 hp, maybe less).

Actually since hp is part of it's theme, I don't think that's such a bad idea. +6 is pushing it. Make it + 4-5. I never that problem with the rail gun. I can't believe you actually left out the fact that the mech is Alan Schezar, a unit with less ground attack range than the regular dam unit.

Do not put a limit on medics. If you do, then I have to worry about suiciding them into cannons just to get 1 with full energy. Wish at least 1 of her spells were global too.

I don't like that his final is basically a copy of volts, but can be mael'd. I would actually like to see something completely new. Maybe spell like the lv2, but with mutants instead of goblins? Maybe something that could act like a mine. It burrows a unit at your location, and if an enemy runs over it, BAM lv2 ownage.

Deal with it


But seriously if you take anything away from this, CHANGE MECH TO REGULAR MECH UNIT! HERO GOLIATH'S GROUND ATTACK RANGE IS INFERIOR!

You're just dead wrong in so many ways. What your talking about has nothing to do with that fact that relying on vessels to deal with Dark orb. In fact, dark orb is the counter to vessels since it's range is greater, and casts instantly, emp lags. What point are you even trying to make? I don't know if I'd take advice from someone who actually gets owned by mass mines, and then suddenly think they're the most broken thing ever. I don't lose to them, most good players don't.

Most of them are also very small changes. I made the post to state what changes I would make, not to demand things

Yeah, I kind of agree, but you also need to factor in that Pylons cost much less. Maybe they could even be pushed down to 15. If CAFG's suggestion for Pylon goes in, the cost for Pylons needs to go up, though.

I think you misunderstood me. The available space to manuever isn't really an issue of bases being defensible. It's an issue of the space and pathways that the terrain provides. Bases are supposed to provide safety to the team and its players.
Pylons are killed easily, and most classes can simply run pass cannons easily without much HP loss. The base can't defend itself very well at all unless players are helping out.
I agree with your point. I do like the idea of a more open map with more room and paths to play around on.

To be honest, I didn't know it had different range. If I did know, I would've said something.

Yeah, you might be right. I guess I'm the only crazy person who suicides them into cannons on a regular basis to not feed the other team. ;o
HP might be better as 150, too. You can trim a point or two off the armor if you go to 150.

Global.... DISABLE? Ouch.
Global.... mana gain? Might work if the give amount is reduced for players not near the medic.
Global.... heal? Rape. Maybe have it only heal to the player's HP % if they aren't near, 100% if they're by the medic. Even still, that might be overpowered.

I was too lazy to brainstorm myself. It might work.

Keep in mind the Volt's L1 is going to be powered down, therefore making Volt less OP overall. It might need this.

I was playing as Brown last night and was using my Civ to order spawns to go north. This just led to a gigantic clusterfuck in the base.
Fortunately I was playing as Special Ops and dual-irradition of vessels led to a shit ton of XP. I like this bug, but I don't think the other players did.

Fixed. Anther copy and paste error... I make a lot of these
I've been reading all of these comments, and I'll keep them in mind. More importantly, I've been updating my changes on the post above

The Light mage is a lot more stable with the first spell. Because of its low hp... Level 3's are for mages who thinks they're strong enough, and can catch a desperately running away hero. (Altho i think i'll change the dmg a bit)
Mutant's final spell is different. It is a lot better than the Volt's.. However, it is much shorter. Which of course gives the theme of Fast striker for mutant.
I'm also saving guardian for something else.. and I like the Raining Arrows Effect :C

But right now, what I really need are testers... I'll be mostly on west, sometimes on east. If you want to help test, please msg me =D

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Aug 22 2008, 4:50 pm by UnholyUrine.