Staredit Network > Forums > Null > Topic: Mafia: Organized Entropy
Mafia: Organized Entropy
Aug 5 2012, 4:11 am
By: Dem0n
Pages: < 1 14 15 16
 

Sep 7 2012, 8:42 pm Azrael Post #301



Just going to reply to a few things you said Moose.

Quote from Mini Moose 2707
- I was wondering halfway through if Townsperson was not listed as a role for a reason; it was. Interesting choice to give everyone a role, though I wouldn't do that myself. With that many detectives and two hitmen, the mafia had the odds stacked against them from the start due to the role setup. (assuming more activity on the part of all those detectives, that is.)

The reason it works is because of how the Detective works: "The Detective will see who they visit and what roles visit them."

Investigating a Mafia, even a Hitman, does not tell you that they killed the target. It only tells you that they visited them. It's perfectly plausible that multiple people visited the person who died, so witnessing the visit doesn't necessarily incriminate anyone.

Also, it seems that the Analyst was what was used in place of a normal Townsperson role. I certainly don't see any imbalance in adding them.

Having roles with no powers whatsoever is, quite simply, bad game design. It's unnecessary and no one appreciates it. Every player should have a method of contributing to the game which those not playing the game do not have.

Quote from Mini Moose 2707
- Rogue Engineer was an interesting role.

Based on a number of comments including this one, I'm under the impression you haven't seen this thread, so I'm providing a link.

Also, I believe that the Rogue Engineer should replace the Vigilante role in any Mafia game that would use one, since it's much more tactical and strategic in nature, and enhances the game experience with its improved functionality. Additionally, the player still has the option of using it as a direct killing role, if they wish.

Quote from Mini Moose 2707
- Giving Beguiler six different powers is kind of excessive.

One was passive, two could only be used once per game, and two were mutually exclusive.

The most important aspects of a Beguiler are that he should be manipulating information (having little to no direct impact on the game), have a lot of utility (in the form of numerous powers), and it should be nearly impossible for him to win by himself. The latter aspect is what balances the previous one, requiring him to work with his teammates to get the most out of his powers.

On that note, I think the first aspect should have had a little more focus on it (the ability to detain players is definitely directly impacting the game).

Quote from Mini Moose 2707
- Players were posting role PMs in the thread in flagrant disregard of the rules. Maybe you're nicer than me, but I would've struck down some lightning bolts just for that.

He retyped a lot of things into his own words. I'd like to think that he meant the same thing that the rules previously said, that you can't provide your role PM in any form other than copy/pasting it as text.

If he actually did mean that no one could share them at all, then I think the more appropriate course would have been to just sent role PMs that stated "You are X."

Quote from Mini Moose 2707
- (Insert previous comments about sudden triple lynches near the end of the day.)

Everyone knows a triple lynch can be called at any time, and that Sacrieur was about to die. It was obviously going to happen. I commented on how hilarious the vote was long before it ended, because it was clear what was going to happen. No one took the triple lynch or the Saboteur into account. They should have seen through such an obvious outcome and voted accordingly to stop it (it literally would have only taken one person to change their vote).

Quote from Mini Moose 2707
- If the mafia are segregated into their own roles, something should be done to ensure they still have killing power.

I agree that every Mafia member (except the Beguiler) should have a means of permanently eliminating players as threats. While the Beguiler can potentially use his powers to misdirect people until he is one of the last two players remaining, the other Mafia cannot, and should not have to rely on what will end up being luck in surviving for such a significant length of time.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Sep 7 2012, 8:47 pm by Azrael.




Sep 7 2012, 8:53 pm Sacrieur Post #302

Still Napping

Quote
Everyone knows a triple lynch can be called at any time, and that Sacrieur was about to die. It was obviously going to happen. I commented on how hilarious the vote was long before it ended, because it was clear what was going to happen. No one took the triple lynch or the Saboteur into account. They should have seen through such an obvious outcome and voted accordingly to stop it (it literally would have only taken one person to change their vote).

That's why I took you and Ari out of the game, because you both DEFINITELY would have seen what was coming. The plan was that the resulting confusion would be disorienting enough for people not to think so much, and it did.

Only one death could have been prevented. Mayor gets +10% remaining people left towards a vote, which gave me a voting power of 2.8 -- so one person voting another way wouldn't have tied the second person in line.



None.

Sep 7 2012, 9:40 pm Aristocrat Post #303



Quote from Azrael
Raitaki was the only Mafia member that didn't give himself away.
He kind of did; I sent this out half a week ago:

Quote from Mafia PM
To: Sand Wraith, Positively, omginbd, Tempz, BiOAtK

Alright, since both of you got the exact same night PM from analyzing that clue, I can trust you guys to both be town. Analyst Sand Wraith, meet analyst Positively.

I've also included omginbd, Tempz, and BiOAtK because I'm convinced that they are also, without a doubt, town-aligned, so there should be no harm in them knowing your roles.

As for why that last analyze attempt failed, that clue was given to me by Raitaki, who claimed Detective. I have a theory as to why it didn't work:
  • Raitaki and Wing Zero are the remaining mafia.
  • Raitaki faked the clue by copying the format of the clue image that Tempz posted, and told me that Wing Zero was visited by the Saboteur to clear him.
  • Note that the only thing he "quoted" was the image. He didn't send me his whole night action.

Now, compare the clues sent by Tempz and Raitaki:



Note the following:
  1. The font used for the code is different. I noticed this immediately, but didn't think much of it at first.
  2. Every time a closed shape is drawn in Tempz's image, there is a lot of "overhang", or an extra length of line drawn over the point at which the shape is closed. In Raitaki's image, however, closed shapes have a gap at the endpoints and no overhang.
  3. Finally, perhaps the most incriminating bit, when you zoom in on the images, you'll see that the lines in Tempz's image are anti-aliased while the lines in Raitaki's image are not.


This suggests that the two images were made by different people on different computers using different versions of MS paint. Also note that Raitaki went along with the lynching of Echo, Positively and xAngelSpiritx without any questions, but as soon as I vote to lynch Wing Zero he makes a long post explaining why we shouldn't lynch him, which set off the alarm bells in my head.

Our next course of action is to make sure that Wing Zero is lynched today. There are three votes, but because the Saboteur may still be in play, I'm not comfortable ringing the bell just yet.

I'm certain that all the hitmen are dead due to the lack of night deaths. Tomorrow, as soon as the day starts, I want all of you to vote Raitaki. I will ring the bell as soon as four votes for Raitaki are recorded, before he realizes that we're onto him, and hopefully the game will end right there.

While the Wing Zero part turned out to be incorrect, can you blame me? Why would you claim a role, say you have a role PM, then proceed to not send it to a confirmed townie until you're about to get lynched? At least behave like town instead of scum. :|



None.

Sep 7 2012, 9:52 pm Moose Post #304

We live in a society.

Quote from Azrael
The reason it works is because of how the Detective works: "The Detective will see who they visit and what roles visit them."
When I saw "Detective", I assumed it worked differently and that they could find out one role per night. My mistake.

Quote from Azrael
Having roles with no powers whatsoever is, quite simply, bad game design. It's unnecessary and no one appreciates it. Every player should have a method of contributing to the game which those not playing the game do not have.
I agree, this is why I started to give Townies a dodge, and in some cases, other powers. (I think I have, anyway.)

Quote from Azrael
Based on a number of comments including this one, I'm under the impression you haven't seen this thread, so I'm providing a link.
You are correct that I have not looked through that game, though I am unsure if I am willing to read the entire topic to discover what you are trying to say about the role.

Quote from Azrael
Quote from Mini Moose 2707
- Giving Beguiler six different powers is kind of excessive.

One was passive, two could only be used once per game, and two were mutually exclusive.
*shrug* I still think it's too much.

Quote from Azrael
The most important aspects of a Beguiler are that he should be manipulating information (having little to no direct impact on the game), have a lot of utility (in the form of numerous powers), and it should be nearly impossible for him to win by himself. The latter aspect is what balances the previous one, requiring him to work with his teammates to get the most out of his powers.

On that note, I think the first aspect should have had a little more focus on it (the ability to detain players is definitely directly impacting the game).
This is a good way of looking at the Beguiler's role, IMO.

Quote from Azrael
Quote from Mini Moose 2707
- (Insert previous comments about sudden triple lynches near the end of the day.)

Quote from Azrael
[quote=name:Mini Moose 2707]- If the mafia are segregated into their own roles, something should be done to ensure they still have killing power.

I agree that every Mafia member (except the Beguiler) should have a means of permanently eliminating players as threats. While the Beguiler can potentially use his powers to misdirect people until he is one of the last two players remaining, the other Mafia cannot, and should not have to rely on what will end up being luck in surviving for such a significant length of time.
Yeah, my suggestion was just one of many ways to address the issue. Yours also works.




Sep 7 2012, 10:03 pm poison_us Post #305

Back* from the grave

You didn't ask for the role PM, you asked if he had it...At least from what I understand, he did nothing wrong. Please state clearly the intent of your questions.




Sep 7 2012, 10:38 pm Raitaki Post #306



Oh damnit :V

Oh well. I thought Aristocrat would get leery if I don't get any notes ever. I placed my hopes on the possibility that Aristocrat wouldn't look at it too closely, and that uploading the image early onto imgur (I reuploaded it like 3 times due to late night post ;_;) would steer away suspicions. I spent 15 minutes trying to find Demon's font, but couldn't find a definite match, so just banked it on the possibility Aristocrat wouldn't think it a proof of fakery ;o I didn't even know about anti-aliasing though, and damnit Demon practice drawing closed shapes more D:

(No srsly I wasn't even trying to avoid overhang on the closed shapes how did that happen)

Also apparently I misunderstood your thought process. I thought my insistence on not Wing Zero could be plausibly be explained by the (alleged) fact that Aristocrat's reasoning on the reason Wing is mafia is flawed :ermm: Well I might have made a wrong move in appearing to not believe in the possibility of a live Beguileer though.

But oh well I have no regrets. I fully expected the chance of me being randomly lynched before victory to be high throughout no matter what I do (see also: Azrael's mafia), and Saboteur powers are complete crap if all lynches are more or less unanimous, so I just tried doing whatever came to mind and hope it works :3

EDIT: @lil: Dude, I've said this many times, how could I have made you guys any less likely to be lynched after the especially discriminating stunt you guys pulled off early game ;_;



None.

Sep 7 2012, 11:51 pm Wing Zero Post #307

Magic box god; Suck it Corbo

I got a little annoyed no one wanted me in their secret club so I was being a smartass. I probably deserved that but IMO it was worth it




Sep 8 2012, 1:33 am TiKels Post #308



I already said that I voted for sacrieur because he was the only one who wasn't going to kill me, except inferno who had been afk for half a week.

We had to act rash because I was 50% of our killing power and was gonna die



"If a topic that clearly interest noone needs to be closed to underline the "we don't want this here" message, is up to debate."

-NudeRaider

Sep 8 2012, 3:13 am Azrael Post #309



I think analyzing a fake code should have resulted in a fake clue, rather than failing.

The Beguiler should have also had the Analyze ability as one of his secondaries, in my opinion.

Quote from Mini Moose 2707
You are correct that I have not looked through that game, though I am unsure if I am willing to read the entire topic to discover what you are trying to say about the role.

Oh no, I wasn't trying to say anything, I just noticed you hadn't seen it yet :P I thought you might find it interesting.




Sep 8 2012, 3:41 am Dem0n Post #310

ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ

As a side note, while I making the role PMs, I was incredibly high and was listening to the Dark Knight Rises soundtrack, which is why there are so many Batman references in everything. I'll give 70 minerals to whoever can spot the most references between the role PMs and day/night posts. :awesome:

Also, why the hell are the links to the day/night posts after Day 3 messed up? Clicking on them sends me to the page after whatever I clicked on was posted. D:




Sep 8 2012, 3:52 am poison_us Post #311

Back* from the grave

Deleted posts, most likely.




Sep 8 2012, 5:16 am Positively Post #312



YAY. Good game everyone. The last mafia I played was a disaster, Voyager's -_-.
Hope I can get in on another later in the future!



None.

Sep 8 2012, 5:32 am Aristocrat Post #313



Who's hosting the next one?

I kind of want to see the Resident Evil mafia setup again (or something like it).



None.

Sep 9 2012, 2:24 am Observer12425 Post #314



I agree with Aristo, RE mafia was good. I also agree with Azrael, that having no powerless roles makes the game a lot more engaging. I also rather agree that the mafia could do with a degree more firepower to compensate. Life is good. I love you all.



None.

Sep 9 2012, 2:40 am Aristocrat Post #315



Quote from Observer12425
I agree with Aristo, RE mafia was good. I also agree with Azrael, that having no powerless roles makes the game a lot more engaging. I also rather agree that the mafia could do with a degree more firepower to compensate. Life is good. I love you all.
Mafia had more than enough firepower. Poor gameplay from mafia caused them to lose.



None.

Sep 9 2012, 2:52 am Raitaki Post #316



Quote from Aristocrat
Quote from Observer12425
I agree with Aristo, RE mafia was good. I also agree with Azrael, that having no powerless roles makes the game a lot more engaging. I also rather agree that the mafia could do with a degree more firepower to compensate. Life is good. I love you all.
Mafia had more than enough firepower. Poor gameplay from mafia caused them to lose.
^
Also, me finding Infil too late, and Aristocrat killing Roy right after me finding him while Roy thought Aristocrat trusted him enough to kill other people instead.

RE mafia DOES need a nerf.

Well actually idk, as that game Zombie got played into town's hands, who used him to sniff us out.



None.

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