Hmm. So my friend gave me his account, and I'm finally able to play SC2 online

So far, there're a ton of massing games, plus some gems on the top popularity pages... Which makes me sad, and reassures my hatred for the custom game system.

anyway, besides that, there're a lot of examples I can draw from.

For example, in Infested Arena, one can get this jet pack that allows you to jump pretty far... I'm thinking of putting that in Assault.
I'm also thinking assault would be Reaper (with/without cliff jump in beginning, he'll get it with passive no matter what)

Summoner will be Infestor, and currently, we've all agreed to zerglings degrading in HP if their out of range from the summoner. There is currently no real agreement to what the other spells would be.

Also, any of you played Zerg Hunter RPG: Betrayal? The spells there are pretty well designed . For example, the "sphinx" hero has "Overload Shields", which deals 150% (or more with leveling) damage in a small AoE around the sphinx. As Sphinx level up, he gets more shields. It actually does fairly good damage, but this breaks all the shield, decreasing his D.

Another map that I highly enjoy is Survivor vs. Swarm. It's basically a L4D clone (which I felt was kind of... schmeh..). But, he has a roach/Hunter called Predator that can pounce on a player from a distance... Which is Awesome . There's also the Strangler/Smoker/Infestor that sticks out a tongue a long distance and pulls people towards it.

If you guys come across any cool things like this, please make note of them here and maybe we can use it.

Wow, just found this thread. I'd be willing to terrain/add the details to the terrain for you.

I'd like to see a real TS 2.0 in sc2. Reformed, and new, yet keeping the concepts of the sc1 TS. I really wouldn't like if random units were used and just given abilities (which is what sotis did; they used zerratul, tassadar, tosh, etc.).
I approve of keeping general names for the heroes (like "Medic"), who ever suggested that..

UI addition: add SZXC (similar to WASD) triggers to move the screen around. I use the arrow keys to look around the hero to check for possible threats, but they are too far away from the QWER spell buttons.
The ability to zoom out.

Effects and graphics are cool (and terrain textures), but it doesn't really matter in this game (compared to, say, a 3rd person RPG). Limit those things to reduce lag.

Use the ideas from HS and TS7. There were many cool ideas like having sub-hero units (like the dropship), and alternate hero forms (lurker-hydra).
Use some form of random items (seen in HS) and/or a shop (NOT PROVIDING EQUIPMENT ITEMS, but rather a probe, hp potions, etc.)
Keep the probe . Name it probert.

Keep night/day cycle. Maybe add dawn/dusk if it fits in.

Remove the toggle allies button and donate minerals to button (top right of screen). Remove supply limit (unless applicable; ie: summoner's max lings).
Use dialog boxes for everything, including upgrades (weapons/armor/shield, and other abilities like stim).
****Keep the minerals purchase upgrades system. Don't use the "hero levels up so it get's + stat points." It's ok to use hero levels with the purchasable upgrades, but not alone. It's this system that really sets TS apart from Dota style maps.****
Place the buttons to open the dialog boxes ON the command panel (place with the portrait, buttons, minimap, etc.). Maybe in between somewhere; it's a real annoyance when a random box is on my screen and I can't get rid of it.

Use MetalGear's (what was that one map he made...?) hero system giving all heroes unique(?) passive abilities (that could possibly be purchased with minerals, or skill points, etc.)

Please do not make a "time" hero. It just doesn't seem appropriate in a TS map.

Life time win/loss counter. Possibly create teams in game depending on rank (but first figure out a way to keep party emembers on the same team). ABILITY TO RESET YOUR COUNTER. A 0/0 record is better than 20 losses because you're a noob. Or possibly ~10 games that don't count to your record.
Leader boards displaying all hero levels, and hero kills. Another leader board displaying allied hero status.

Ban menu. # of votes to ban is dependent on # of players playing on each team.

Let players vote on how to pick heroes (Pick fast, each team, random, choose), if there can be duplicate heroes for each team, or no limit at all. Fast game (exp/money gain), or normal game.

**Just throwing this idea out there: Have a limit on the number of times a player swears. ie: A player says nigger 5 times, or gay wad X times, they get booted from the game. Trash talking is part of the game, but being a racist, sexist, etc is just annoying.

DO NOT MAKE HEROES SUPER POWERFUL. LET SPAWN ACTUALLY DO STUFF OTHER THAN DIE FOR MINERALS/EXP.
Not to say that the map should/should not be spawn based (which is my preference)...
I would* recommend using the armor system that sotis uses, but I personally believe that heroes should be able to rush defenses (during night?), or do hit and runs.




Just a quick reply to whoever posted this (cafg?), and some comments about the units in general:

Mutant: make it bigger - a big problem with it was being unable to click it. It would be nice if the clicking range was larger than the actual unit area.
Assault: all firebat heros I've seen sucked (cept for flashbeer's firebat map, though I'm not sure any of you have seen it. It wouldn't be that impressive in SC2 anyways.) I like the idea of this hero being a reaper.
Medic: very nice. either don't let it heal shields/mechs, or let it heal everything and nerf her overall healing abilites. Please don't use Nova's portrait for this unit.
Assassin: Kinda liked the obs idea from HS. Keep the cloak. Keep night time.
Warrior: kinda bland, I like the samurai from HS better.
Volt: I like this guy. I'd like to see more electric looking spells in TS2.
LM: So many versions of this guy... I'm not sure what to think. I think he should be totally redone.
Archer: A good hero. Norm's CoM was also a good hero. Either one works depending on the other heroes.
Summoner: A combination of TS, TSm9, and TS7's summoner would be epic. (specially with more than 4 spells). Please don't make the summoner's lings hp degrade if it gets too far. Instead of using a punishment, nerf the lings, and give them a bonus when the summoner is around them (possible spell idea).
DM: I like this one too; Keep the orb. Don't use kerrigan from sc2, she looks stupid when compared with sc1 kerrigan.
Mech: a cool morphing effect would be nice.
Special ops: I've always like the rine, my favorite. However, he is very hard to balance, even with the new editor's flexibility. For balances sake, I might suggest getting rid of this hero entirely.


Whew that was a lot. Everything off the top of my head; I'll have more after I think about it some more.
I'd really like to help in any way I could (including testing). Or ideas (heroes, spells)

Add a music system similar to how Runling Run does it's music.

Add a button to turn off the music. Imo, non-sc music is annoying.

Can you elaborate on your HS examples?

I haven't played that enough to know what you're talking about
Tho I agree that some ideas in HS are very good, and can be much better implemented with the SC2 editor

Well, flashbeer used many of the ideas from HS and used them in TS7. However, many of these ideas were only good because of sc1's limitations. The the majority of valuable parts of HS are game style ideas, and general game play (rather than spells or triggers).

By game style, I mean different pieces of the game. TS, HS and Dota are both AoS style, but they each have different styles of game play. One thing HS used was the 'items' scattered around the map. It gave other ideas as well:
Items around the map - Gives non-exp benefit for walking around and using alternate paths. Gives an additional bonus to teams that own a corner base. Also introduces random luck.
Spell number - HS featured ~12 heroes with 8-9 spells each. Some of the spells were combos, while others were spells for alternate forms, or if they were burrowed.
Passive spells - Figure you're gonna use some in TS2 anyways, but it would be nice if ALL heroes had at least 1-2 passives.
Spawn - Spawn did the majority of damage to the enemy base. A few heroes also had spells that spawned units equivalent to the spawn (hp and attack wise; the hydra made broods, the fbat had medics, the dragoon had rines and ghosts). Although a hero could base rush, it was about 4x faster when using spawn (ie: triple flowing a lane).
Builders - 2 heroes had a builder (drones for the necromancer, and the scv was a hero that could build). Probe was the same as TS. (I like the mana pool idea).
Gas - There were more vespene to build refineries on. Make more of them on the main path, so that heroes must fight to keep the land safe from the enemy. Give the refineries a very small attack.
Elements - Doesn't really fit, and I didn't like it that much, but it was a nice addition. Each element provided something to a hero (shield ups, type of spell, money, etc.), and sometimes the heroes had to compete to get them. Doesn't really fit into TS.

Spell/Hero/Other ideas:
Use the obs for the assassin. His L1 creates an obs. If an obs is already present, he teleports to it, and the obs dies (giving off a visual effect). If the obs is over invalid terrain, the obs just dies.
Spell combos; this can be within a single unit, or between allied/all units. ie: A hero casts water bubble, and another hero casts flame (or a helion attacks), the flame is 'put out' and no damage is done. ie: Double casting a spell = new effect.
Use the hydra and lurker as 1 hero (as seen in HS).
Use a unit that can get into a tank and move around. Siege lets the hero out. This hero only dies when the hero dies, not the tank. Spell/Ability to get/build new tank.
Air mini-heroes, such as the dropship, sci vessel, corsair with spells of their own. Make D-ship be empty if it is used to carry the hero.
Keep the DM with a dark archon and mael. Keep the organic/non-organic units.
Give units bonuses at times of day. ie: the ling in HS had +3 mana/sec when burrowed in the night.

Keep cloaked units, keep flying units, keep cannons powered by pylons, keep splash units.
Have defense clusters of 3 cannons and 2 pylons.
Do not do the thing where if allied buildings are killed, the enemy spawns better units. It's best to keep the spawners, or just have all 3 spawns come from the temple.
Throw in some damn easter eggs.
Create a help section (for F12), and detailed details of each Hero. Srsly, detailed.
Typed commands, ie: score (then a text displays which team is winning based off of.. idk.. % base left?)
Maybe a mobile shop, like a blimp that floats around in a predictable pattern. It could sell rare items, or potions, or w/e.
Do not do some gay ass dark vs light, or protoss vs zerg theme (what dota and sotis do).

GOOD SPAWN. Think about the the spawn in Storm the Fort: the base had miners, deployed tanks to kill bunkers, repaired bunkers and mech units, sent dropships to hot spots. All of this should be done, and more. Have vultures deploy mines, have buildings visually build the units (when they finish building, they move along the path or w/e), allow the spawn to upgrade the units (attack, defense, shields, and possibly abilities) before the next spawn level starts. Allow cannons to be slowly healed (by humans + money?). Send dropships and tanks (or allow players to purchase these "mercenaries"), create some goliath defender mercs.

No to the first. We will have the probe buyable, but not hp potions etc. There will most likely be equipment items, as in attack/def/hp/mana buffs. Not items such as home teleport, items that affect other heroes (probably).

Already got all this, except that were going to have a more custom UI than, for example, SOTIS.



Probably going to have this, although some heroes may not have passives. Not purchasable.

There'll be a kills/deaths/assists counter up top right, possibly with a gold counter as well, depending. Also a counter to show the enemy team's kills and your team's kills. As for a lifetime win/loss counter, there'll probably be this (we haven't discussed it but I already had something planned for it). The team sorting based on rank is possible but won't be in the first release. Probably won't be an easy way to reset the counter, or it would defeat the purpose of it.
Not sure about the allied-status board, I don't like cluttered UIs but other AoS's such as HoN and LoL use this, so maybe.

I was thinking more on the lines of the host choosing these things at the start.

There are easter eggs..

... in TS7

I'm not sure if Spell combos between different heroes would work.
Spell Combos within One hero works by design.

Items are definitely...... still in question :\

I know about the MInd and Machinery hero. It's a neat idea =) .. One of the things that I'm impressed by HS.

I like the idea of Typed commands too. I will remember that.

For Spawn, I'm thinking of Spawn Temples only spawning 1 spawn at a time. But the 1 spawn will be specialized at doing one thing (like the siege tank killing cannons. or maybe long range spawn hero, and etc.)
Visually building the unit would work (like in Nexus Wars)

I'm not sure if spawn upgrades would work... Technically it is okay, but what about Spawn levels?

Does that even work? I haven't seen a map that lets the host do this. That, and because of bnet 2.0's shitty layout, using the settings in lobby would be... undesirable. Till multiple games of the same map are allowed, please let players choose in game.


Srsly, easter eggs attract players. (ie: scarab gun in Halo 2) They don't have to really affect the game, just be there.

My idea for spawn was something like:
Games starts with broodling spawn, 35hp, 6 attack, 0 armor, 0 shields, X move speed, X attack speed, + 0.5 hp/sec regen. The temple researches upgrades so that the broodling get 2-3 upgrades before the next spawn level (lings?). This might add +2 hp, +.1 move speed, and +.15 regen. Then +1 attack, +2 hp. And for the final upgrade, give: +1 hp, +1 attack, +1 armor. Then lings appear. The first ling upgrade gives.... etc.

They should all follow some type of pattern, ie:
Upgrade 1: +vitality. This can be more hp, shields, armor, regen, evasion, etc.
Upgrade 2: +attack + attack rate. This is a useful bonus for base breaking.
Upgrade 3: +ability. This gives the unit a unique ability, like charge for the zealot. Not all units have to have a "special" ability. (Chitinous plating from sc1 ultralisk was an upgrade that gave a bunch extra armor)


Any way I could help? I reallllly want to help on this map.

I don't know if I like all of your ideas FFP...

I'd rather keep it as much gameplay style-wise as TS. I'd rather not be changing this into a HS2... And Passive spells are not needed for every hero. ESPECIALLY not 1-2 per hero. Seriously, it actually decreases the uniqueness of the heroes. I also dont like the idea of combo spells. 4 spells is much easier to balance, and usually makes sure that every spell is used. Giving combo spells would be a bit harder with the TS spell system, and would make it a lot harder to learn. Combo systems were used in SC due to limitations. They're not needed at all.

The idea of a water shield cancelling out a fire spell is a big no-no. Having one skill completely cancel out another skill is not good for balance, especially when it will have to have more of an effect in order to be balanced.

Also, no factions/teams. Just keep them all as neutral.

I do like your idea for spawns though. That seems like it would work fine.

The 1-2 passive skills idea was from MetalGear's map. Sc1 AoS maps usually made players get spell 1 before spell 2 (etc.); these passive spells were separately purchased, and had 2 for each hero. Just an idea that maybe each hero should have a passive ability (maybe let the player choose between a passive or non-passive ultimate spell?)

4 spells is standard. 8+ spells is exciting, and interesting. The use of 8-9 spells in HS really made it stand out from other AoS maps. They weren't just 8 straight up; they were usually 4 in 1 form, and 4 in another (or 3,3,3). Although you are right in saying it will make balancing more difficult, it can be overcome with enough testing.

The idea was spells interacting. The water shield doesn't have to completely cancel the fire spell, it was just the idea that spells/attack could interact, not just spells and units. It could be an actual effect like damage reduction, or simply aesthetics like bubbles instead of fire (boiling water). Again, not really needed, but a nice addition, and makes for more interesting game play/strategy/team work.

One thing I don't like about Water n Fire or other elemental spells is that, unless most, if not all, heroes have these elemental spells, then there's very few use of it. Not that it's impossible, but then a lot of things would need to change

Passive spells are already being incorporated.. in what shape or form, we don't know. We do know it'll be upped separately from L1-L4 (whether L1 to L4 will need a linear progression is still question, actually).. And that what I'm definately opposed to is having passives that just buffs certain attributes, like Increase Strength/Defense/Mana/Agility (tho agility is okay, since we've decided not to have speed as something upgradable). We want passives that fits the niche of the hero, and make it more interesting, benefiting the hero in diff ways.

For example, one passive spell that I've thought of for Assassin is "Bloodmark". When the assassin brings down a hero to 1/x'th of its max health, the hero will be marked, and will share a small vision with the assassin until he heals or dies.
Another I thought of was "hemorrhage", where Strike spells (shadow strike, crippling strike, and decap) will cause hero to take DOT (dmg/time) and/or slow down for x secs.

8-9 Different spells are definately NOT needed. 8-9 spells, with some spells that are basically "upgrades" of previous ones is fine.

again, we're still debating what spell system to use. Should we do the old L1 to L2 to L3 to L4? or have L2, L3, L4 all available in the beginning (except L4 will cost a lot of mana and be ineffective in the beginning?) and/or have techs for each spell, so like from L1, you can go to L2, or tech up L1 to L1b, L1c .....
Or have ... BLECH

...
on a side note, HS is an idea-fest, and while a lot of it is very cool, i felt he sacrificed too much gameplay for hero design. For example, mind and machinery is very cool, but the SCV will not hold itself late game, and the tank itself is fairly weak. I also noticed how Spawns play a .. erm.. larger role.. in comparison. Unfortunately, spawns are often too powerful and caused the game to feel like a grind. It also made Hero interactions less.

Another example of a map that sacrificed gameplay for design is this:


Can you tell me wut's SOOOO wrong about this map, even tho I don't even have to TOUCH it to know???

Anyways, what I'm trying to say is, always bear in mind that gameplay comes before cool ideas. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work, EVEN with SC2's awesome power.

There'd be a custom lobby after you start the game. Spawn wouldn't start spawning until a) the host has chosen all the options, and b) everyone's chosen their heroes.

Summoner's lings die when they go out of range why? Is this to force people to bring summoner along or to limit the chasing range of summoner?

They will not die, their hp will just go down to a low %. It's a slow degrading hp, so they would still have a lot of hp if recently sent out to attack a hero or something. They just won't have a prolonged life away from the summoner, such as grinding indefinitely until a hero kills it.

Yeah, it's actually okay.

I was thinking that we should show the range of the Summoner when we select the summons instead

Mutant, rigged? That's a joke right?

Mech OBLITERATES Mutant at all levels. If you can micro and time spells, mutant is a joke for a mech.

LM, if they have enuf ups, can kill Mutant with L2 followed by L3/L1

If you can't mael a Mutant while it's moving, then mael it while it's stationary... DM is a pure counter for Mutant.

I've managed to kill a mutant late game with a summoner, even when he went pure lurker upgrades. If you can split well, you'll do fine.

Warrior has stun that murders Mutant, and his shield is good against mid-game mutant.

Assassin, if played well, can murder Mutant. I've killed so many mutants with a surprise Decapitate it's not even funny.


I haven't really run into a balance issue in TS.


On TS2, you do understand that an AoS is already out? (SotIS wasn't it?) You're going to have to do things they haven't yet to make a good AoS. Maybe controllable manned base turrets for defense?

oh it'll more than that luls.

I think one of the things that would make TS 2 more successful than the DOTA style maps we're seeing now is the spawn.
I missed the spawn leveling up while playing these.

Also the fact that you can build temples to spawn stronger spawns less frequently.

The key thing to decide if you're going to make TS2 is whether you want to keep it similar to the original or not. Do you want all the same heroes, just redone with SC2 flexibility? Do you want totally different heroes with all-new abilities to take advantage of SC2's powerful editor? Do you want mostly the same heroes with some tweaks here and there?

That's what you need to decide before you move on. Then you can actually start talking about the heroes, about the spawns, etc.