Awesome info Kaias.

I played bad that game because I've been trying out all the different champions.

I still think health regen can be vital, I hate winning a team fight but staying at sub 200 HP because I have zero regen, it basically nullifies my advantage to push their lane because I have to leave my lane too. With some regen, I could basically stay in lane or keep fighting. Why do you think Cho'gath is such a low tier? He has a huge aoe stun + silence, very vital in team fights and ganks.

Thanks for the tips, Kaias. I've basically been using mobafire.com to base my purchases on, but I can totally see why some of those would be better items.

As for the game we played, I was sucking terribly that day.

Chomps a dude, silences and knocks up. He does all this then is ignored while his team dies. His cooldowns are too long to use more than once, maybe twice a teamfight and his knock up is so easy to dodge, unless they're already slowed. Mainly hes down there because he is outdone by other tanks like Galio/Shen/Rammus, who all have taunts that force people to attack you and can deal out a lot of damage (Shen less so, but his ability to stop a gank and reverse it from anywhere on the map make him valuable).

All the red heroes I think should be +1'd tier up.
Reason:
Katrina. Amazing solo lane hero for a melee but really why she should be up one is because of her ulti. Early game, and late game if she gets fed, heroes w/o blink can't do shit against her ulti. Stuns are rare in LoL so not many people can cancel her. It does insane damage, and as of next patch it will do even more damage.

Udyr. He is one of those tank/dps hyrbids IMO, right along with garen and xin, but a little harder to play. He is harder to learn, but extremely easy to master because he is so strong. With tigers stance he deals tons of damage even w/ a tank build, and he dishes out stuns like no other hero.

Karthus. Get mejai on him. Ulti when people have low hp (which happens surprisingly a lot). Get 10+ stacks EXTREMELY fast. Then the rest of your abilities kill enemies extremely fast. Up a tier.

Soraka. One of the greatest supports in the game. Laning with her = unlimited mana and tons of bonus health. Mejai on her is also an amazing item. If she ults before a friendly champion kills an enemy, she gets an assist. Like Karthus, she has that long range, no risk assist move. When she gets enough AP, her ulti can heal 1k HP every single team fight. She isn't a game changing support hero, but she should def be at least tier 3.



These items = Disagreed.
Reason:
Warmogs. The hp regen DOES help late game. I personally love this item on morde, especially because his abilities cost HP. After team fights, if your team got beaten (but not too badly) and there are like 2 of you left and 3 of them, everyone low hp, and they are pushing, you use your extreme hp regen. A morde w/ warmogs gains his hp extremely fast and he doesn't even have to recall to be able to defend his turret from the pushing team.

Philosphers stone. Its not the best item but I'm partial to it because it works on Shaco well. The gold bonus doesn't do much. (30 minutes after buying the item you get your 800 gold back). But the hp regen and mana regen for such a cheap item is really good early game. I buy it when I'm shaco and I have 100% control over the grass areas because I can spam my jack in the box w/ losing ANY mana.

Wit's End. Yea, this item sucks, but it can come in handy. If you are a dps, and the other team is mainly spell casters, then you are gonna want some magic armor w/o sacrificing too much money for non-dps items. Wit's end works perfectly. It gives you bonus magic armor and dps qualities. Very situational item, not very good, but it helps when your tanks REALLY suck (Been there, done that).


Lastly, the Doran's items.
The shield and the ring are good for starting, but the sword sucks so much. 4% life steal? That gives you nothing! Having the shield makes you regen more hp per second than that 4% life steal.

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Oct 11 2010, 12:23 am by Raccoon.

Disagreeing on the items in general. Like I've mentioned before, the spellvamp relies more upon your heroes spells than any other thing. Of course nobody except spammers and AoE whores will benefit from Hextech, but that doesn't make it a bad item. It's almost a must-have for Nasus. Like coon mentioned, Wit's End is highly situational, and isn't really that great unless used for the right reasons.

Some of them, like the Doran's, I don't ever get unless I'm playing a new hero. The Doran's are generally stupid, mostly because they never build. I'd consider maybe getting the shield for Nasus if it built into an armor or something, but it doesn't.

That's my two cents. Basically, the items and heroes are interrelated. Just as you wouldn't get Wit's End on a mage, you won't find much use for Hextech on Warwick.

Norm, if you insist on playing Kat every game, can you please at least get better with her outside of our games? I've watched you go sub 5 kills and 13+ deaths in each of the games you were as Kat. I know you like Kat, but it's really no fun when we don't stand a chance because you've fed their team 10+ deaths. I don't mind playing with you, but every single game, I watch you struggle with Kat and it's not fun for anyone else. If you're trying a new hero, then fine, but you've been Kat for least a good week and I've barely seen any improvement. You're like Kevin in HoN, you have absolutely zero map awareness or game sense.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Oct 11 2010, 1:22 am by Neki.

Warmogs: This is especially bad on Mordekaiser because Mordekaiser relies on his passive shield, which does benefit from Armor and MR but not from health. Buffing your AP, Magic pen, and Armor/Mr all buff his shield which is primarily what makes him unkillable. Force of Nature can give you all the regen you need to keep your health up beneath your shield from using abilities while giving you MR to make the shield even stronger. Let me put it into perspective for you:

Cost of Warmogs: 3160 gold
Health of unfilled Warmogs: 770 hp
Cost of each hp point in gold (efficiency): 4.1

Cost of Giant Belt: 1110 gold
Health from Giant Belt: 430 hp
Cost of each hp point in gold (efficiency): 2.58

In an unfilled warmogs each 1 point of hp it gives you cost you 4.1 gold, vs the giant belt that gives you 1 hp per 2.58 gold (thats a wayy better deal)

Cost of Warmogs: 3160 gold
Health of filled Warmogs: 1220 hp
Cost of each hp point in gold (efficiency): 2.59

Once warmogs is actually full (125 minion kills later) the efficiency is 2.59 which comes close to giant belt's 2.58, but never actually does (aka it never quite breaks even in gold cost per health). "But what about the regen!" Negligible. Empty you get 6 health a second. If a teamfight lasts 10 seconds (that's being generous) you've regained a whopping 60 health. Full you get 18.5 health a second, which would be 180 health over the duration of the teamfight.

The primary reason its so bad, however, is what you're losing out on. 3160 gold is a serious investment, and when first made you've paid 1,172.33 more gold than the stats you're getting are worth. If you want to come close to filling up that warmogs you'll need to get it ASAP (as a tank you'll likely not get 125 creep kills over the course of the game, let alone after getting the warmogs) and if you're getting it ASAP you're missing more important stats for you to be getting especially at the times you should be getting them. 3160 before you ever see another stat. The next reason its bad is because its more health than you need. It'll put you over that goldilock zone I talked about in terms of effective health to cost (aka you've invested too much of your gold in health which is suboptimal to maximizing your effective health in health to damage reduction to gold cost). And you should be getting it in other sources along the way while getting the stats you need.

Take Mordekaiser, for instance. You're a fool if you're not getting Rylai's on him; it gives him health and AP and has the slow effect passive. AP buffs his shield, his spells and his ghost, health buffs him and the passive effectively allows you to slow all nearby enemies with your spells and it gives your ghost's attacks this effect too. If you got Rylai's and Warmogs on Mordekaiser then you've got WAY too much health per damage reduction you've invested it. Total waste of gold.

/end of Warmogs rant.
I'll defend my other observations when I have more time.

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAIT A SECOND. Did I just see "Mordekaiser relies on his passive shield"?


I will prove you wrong whenever you'd like. That shield is merely a diversion if you're actually even playing Tank as Mordekaiser, and is hardly useful in the least unless your enemy's team is just that bad.

And I can definitly say with my experience, nothing saves you more then Spell Vamp (Which is so totally useless. Yep yep.) and his ultimate, combined with boatloads of AP. 5% magic damage per second for 8 seconds. Thats 40% of that poor bastard, plus whatever you bought in Spell Vamp. Oh my.

1. I bought her yesterday.
2. My first melee hero, it's harder to adjust than you'd think.
3. What hero I play doesn't change the fact that I rarely pay attention to what's going on around me in the game.
4. My deaths rack up late game because I can't stop myself from being overly aggressive and in the middle of a group of 5 enemies. I'm use to having characters that can escape easier like Kennen and Sivir - refer back to point #2.

Also, really you gunna call me out in the official SEN topic? Not even a PM, but in front of everyone? Show some class man...

Kaias is such a hypocrite, look at him get 3 Warmog armors and we win the game because of it.



If you're willing to admit that you're being overly agressive and that you pay no attention is better than ignoring it, then I commend you for it, but you should still try working on it, it's still no fun watching you run into their whole team and dying. I've called you out so many times in private convos but it doesn't change, you just get mad at me and log off. If I play really badly, I encourage you to call me out on it, you don't get better without any criticism.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Oct 11 2010, 3:14 am by Neki.

HEY LOOK I'M NOT USING MALADY ANYMORE YAY

Hey I use it because the guide on Mobafire for Jungle Yi tells me too.

I won that game, not 3 warmogs.

lol, how did you get 16 kills with fiddle while having 3 warmogs and nothing else? Tank then ult while your team is hacking away at them?

I carried you guys last night lulz.

I read 1 guide for any champion ever. I then modified my build from his for experimenting and stuffs, now I just make up my own builds as I go for champs I have without one. People bitch at me for using Zeal/Phantom Dancer with my Kennen. It's not gonna change. And I usually get some decent scores with Kennen.

Didn't read most of the thread since last time, posting what I glanced through:

Warmogs = bad item. It has way too much of a cost deficit, and you have to kill an addition 100 or so minions to full stack it, after which it barely become gold efficient. This only really works on Cho, who can farm like crazy and who's passive gives him additional staying power. There's plenty of other item's that will benefit champs for though. I'm interested to see what it's buff does to it.

Also, LOVE that TF buff in the PTR. SO going to break the game, same with Urgot's buff.

So the balanced heroes get nerfed, the ever-so-slightly OP get buffed...what about the way underpowered ones?

You didn't even talk about the HP regen OUT of battle. Having to almost never go back to fountain unless you are under like 5% HP does wonders. Many tanks DO get tons of creep kills. Morde for one can get tons of creep kills. He intercepts the whole lane before they touch your creeps, spams his abilities and you get 6/7 quick creep kills. Many others do the same thing like Mundo (flamey body spell) and Shen (spammable abilities and insane life steal). The creep kills aren't hard to get. Morde's AP ratios are horrible, and usually after you have spammed your spells you ALREADY have full shield, getting that little bonus AP from rylai's doesn't help much. Also, if you think warmogs is such a bad item for the health, what other tanky item would you reccomend? Ignoring your Morde suggestions.

And I solo'd baron at level 13 in a real game as shaco. It twas epic.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Oct 11 2010, 8:56 pm by Raccoon.