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[2017-5-14. : 11:50 pm] Broflamingo -- ExcaliburExcalibur shouted: Broflamingo There is no 'cover', there is no falseness or pretense. Stop implying I'm being dishonest. Not implying that, I actually said you did this out of being emotionally rash.[2017-5-14. : 11:50 pm]  Lanthanide -- Mini Moose 2707Mini Moose 2707 shouted: It just feels like TS potentially becoming toxic a second time is a topic that's appropriate for the staff to discuss among themselves if and when it happens. totally[2017-5-14. : 11:50 pm] Lanthanide -- ExcaliburExcalibur shouted: Broflamingo There is no 'cover', there is no falseness or pretense. Stop implying I'm being dishonest. you were acting in your capacity of a moderator, by saying "this map previously bought bad people to SEN that caused moderators like me a lot of trouble. i remember it, even if you don't, and I don't want those people back"[2017-5-14. : 11:49 pm]  Moose -- It just feels like TS potentially becoming toxic a second time is a topic that's appropriate for the staff to discuss among themselves if and when it happens.[2017-5-14. : 11:48 pm]  Excalibur -- BroflamingoBroflamingo shouted: NudeRaider Nude thats the problem , his post wasn't about a proper debate look how he started it. He wasn't even impartial it was knocking other peoples passion with the cover of "im protecting SEN", in a map project thread no less asking for help. There is no 'cover', there is no falseness or pretense. Stop implying I'm being dishonest.[2017-5-14. : 11:47 pm] Broflamingo -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: Mini Moose 2707 I already conceded that it's understandable to interpret it as sarcasm? I went on, however, to show why, if you're interested in proper debate, you can see why this wasn't sarcasm. Nude thats the problem , his post wasn't about a proper debate look how he started it. He wasn't even impartial it was knocking other peoples passion with the cover of "im protecting SEN", in a map project thread no less asking for help.[2017-5-14. : 11:46 pm] Lanthanide -- Mini Moose 2707Mini Moose 2707 shouted: NudeRaider Hello, creator of <your project>, I'm a global moderator. I think <your project> will be detrimental to this website and bring in bad people. But I don't disapprove of you working on it! Don't you ever imply it could be beneficial to SEN. That's all, thanks, please continue working on <your project>, which I think will be bad for SEN. truth [2017-5-14. : 11:46 pm] Moose -- Not that whether or not TS can, can't, will, or will not be a benefit for SEN (even if you have to filter some shit) is really a provable hypothesis, so I'm getting ready to break out Newton's Flaming Laser Sword on this one.[2017-5-14. : 11:45 pm] NudeRaider -- Mini Moose 2707Mini Moose 2707 shouted: NudeRaider Hello, creator of <your project>, I'm a global moderator. I think <your project> will be detrimental to this website and bring in bad people. But I don't disapprove of you working on it! Don't you ever imply it could be beneficial to SEN. That's all, thanks, please continue working on <your project>, which I think will be bad for SEN. I already conceded that it's understandable to interpret it as sarcasm? I went on, however, to show why, if you're interested in proper debate, you can see why this wasn't sarcasm. [2017-5-14. : 11:44 pm] Broflamingo -- ExcaliburExcalibur shouted: Mini Moose 2707 Nice meme, but present it fairly: The map has already brought in largely problematic people. I had reason to be concerned, as should we all be. Thats false because you chose to do it. Again everything is contextual when i came back Im sure moose was watching for Old Maxx behavior, or Extreme TS toxicity. There was none, so why even bring it up?[2017-5-14. : 11:44 pm] Moose -- ZoanZoan shouted: Are we even talking about map making anymore lmao I don't think it was ever about map making LMAO[2017-5-14. : 11:43 pm] Excalibur -- Mini Moose 2707Mini Moose 2707 shouted: NudeRaider Hello, creator of <your project>, I'm a global moderator. I think <your project> will be detrimental to this website and bring in bad people. But I don't disapprove of you working on it! Don't you ever imply it could be beneficial to SEN. That's all, thanks, please continue working on <your project>, which I think will be bad for SEN. Nice meme, but present it fairly: The map has already brought in largely problematic people. I had reason to be concerned, as should we all be. [2017-5-14. : 11:42 pm] Moose -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: Mini Moose 2707 ... I don't follow. The words say "I wish you luck" - Inf said "Ex wants him to not work on TS". Hello, creator of <your project>, I'm a global moderator. I think <your project> will be detrimental to this website and bring in bad people. But I don't disapprove of you working on it! Don't you ever imply it could be beneficial to SEN. That's all, thanks, please continue working on <your project>, which I think will be bad for SEN. [2017-5-14. : 11:41 pm] Broflamingo -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: Mini Moose 2707 ... I don't follow. The words say "I wish you luck" - Inf said "Ex wants him to not work on TS". Translation: Screw you, and your community, i hate temple siege. Good luck anyways.[2017-5-14. : 11:39 pm] NudeRaider -- Mini Moose 2707Mini Moose 2707 shouted: NudeRaider No, there is no misrepresentation because that's the text of the post. It's what the words say. ... I don't follow. The words say "I wish you luck" - Inf said "Ex wants him to not work on TS".[2017-5-14. : 11:38 pm] Lanthanide -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: Lanthanide Strawman. And in this case Ex is correct. People are misrepresenting what he said. For example lil-inf: He argued that Ex is trying to stop people from mapping, when in Fact he said the opposite. It's UNDERSTANDABLE that, because of Ex's tone, people thought his remark "have at it" is meant sarcastically. But if you look at it closer you realize he said it because he was upset. that's not a strawman at all, it's a logical conclusion[2017-5-14. : 11:36 pm] Moose -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: Mini Moose 2707 I thought I elaborated on what was misrepresented and why. Any questions about something in particular? No, there is no misrepresentation because that's the text of the post. It's what the words say.[2017-5-14. : 11:35 pm] NudeRaider -- Mini Moose 2707Mini Moose 2707 shouted: NudeRaider What's to misrepresent? He told him straight up never to even imply that TS could be a positive for SEN. If some random did that in a production or assistance thread for another map, I'd like to think our mods would bop that in a heartbeat. I thought I elaborated on what was misrepresented and why. Any questions about something in particular?[2017-5-14. : 11:35 pm] Moose -- lil-Infernolil-Inferno shouted: tbh, just bop repeat offenders and keep the good people, same as always Yup, what  suggested if they act up: Voyager7456Voyager7456 shouted: Swampfox then they'll get the bop, problem solved [2017-5-14. : 11:34 pm] lil-Inferno -- tbh, just bop repeat offenders and keep the good people, same as always[2017-5-14. : 11:32 pm] Broflamingo -- Mini Moose 2707Mini Moose 2707 shouted: NudeRaider What's to misrepresent? He told him straight up never to even imply that TS could be a positive for SEN. If some random did that in a production or assistance thread for another map, I'd like to think our mods would bop that in a heartbeat. <---think moose indirectly alluded to my point, you are a Mod and have influence and power. This optics of this are terrible for you.[2017-5-14. : 11:31 pm] Excalibur -- If "that guy" in this context happens to be the person considering SEN's well-being first then I hope to always be that guy. .-.[2017-5-14. : 11:30 pm] Broflamingo -- ExcaliburExcalibur shouted: lil-Inferno Have any of these maps resulted in an influx of members the majority of whom were banned for flaming and arguing with staff about their conduct? I believe the answer is no, so I don't think thats as serious. And its not a shot at you because, I used to argue and tout my right to argue. But thats not a good way to win support from anyone, generally leaves you isolated or pushes people away.[2017-5-14. : 11:29 pm] Broflamingo -- ExcaliburExcalibur shouted: lil-Inferno Have any of these maps resulted in an influx of members the majority of whom were banned for flaming and arguing with staff about their conduct? I believe the answer is no, so I don't think thats as serious. You opened a can of worms that wasn't productive, had negativity associated with it. At a minimum alot of SEN'ers did question why post that in the thread. Or maybe have Moose convey that message. Arguments, especially about old and petty shit, are not sexy , productive, and lead to divisiveness. Nobody likes arguments except our girlfriends, thats it.[2017-5-14. : 11:26 pm] Broflamingo -- ExcaliburExcalibur shouted: lil-Inferno Have any of these maps resulted in an influx of members the majority of whom were banned for flaming and arguing with staff about their conduct? I believe the answer is no, so I don't think thats as serious. The best way to put it to you, in this context EX is like. There is always that "one guy" at the party or social gathering. You never wanna be "That guy".[2017-5-14. : 11:24 pm] Excalibur -- lil-Infernolil-Inferno shouted: Excalibur Do you want anyone who shits out a map to argue that their map will be a net benefit to SEN? Cuz there are plenty of maps advertising SEN that are really shitty LMAO Have any of these maps resulted in an influx of members the majority of whom were banned for flaming and arguing with staff about their conduct? I believe the answer is no, so I don't think thats as serious.[2017-5-14. : 11:24 pm] Moose -- lil-Infernolil-Inferno shouted: Excalibur Do you want anyone who shits out a map to argue that their map will be a net benefit to SEN? Cuz there are plenty of maps advertising SEN that are really shitty LMAO But did those maps bring in trash talkers eight years ago? O_________O[2017-5-14. : 11:23 pm] lil-Inferno -- ExcaliburExcalibur shouted: Mini Moose 2707 Argue that TS could be beneficial to SEN, have a net gain impact, and that it won't be a repeat of last time. Several people have already presented points he could make as part of that argument. Do you want anyone who shits out a map to argue that their map will be a net benefit to SEN? Cuz there are plenty of maps advertising SEN that are really shitty LMAO[2017-5-14. : 11:23 pm] Excalibur -- So I think associating SEN and TS could be a bad thing for SEN. Because SEN is important, I think that issue is important. More important than a shoutbox argument. Important enough to warrant a post and say hey, you, OP, and all the other SENners here, I have something to say.[2017-5-14. : 11:22 pm] Swampfox -- Do you think it was appropriate to voice your opinion on the matter in that particular thread? Do you think this would have been better suited to shoutbox? I feel like some of the animosity may be stemming from this.[2017-5-14. : 11:21 pm] Broflamingo -- ExcaliburExcalibur shouted: Broflamingo This is what I'm trying to get at: Who I am, what I've done in the past, or what I personally think is not relevant no matter how much your feelings say they are. The only relevant thing is my argument. And since you can't respond to that, you can only tell me about your feelings and about what you feel is relevant, then you aren't presenting a case of why I'm wrong. You're presenting a case why you're mad about me voicing my opinion. And if you're looking for the silencing of dissenting opinions you've come to the wrong place. <----This, you are just lacking a certain level of awareness man. We all have self-reflect sometimes. Like you wished me luck, I wish you luck on some self-reflection.[2017-5-14. : 11:19 pm] Excalibur -- BroflamingoBroflamingo shouted: Excalibur Ex i can't be more anymore honest with you, you just came off as salty and being negative. It's a visceral feeling, and sure maybe there is some merit to your argument but your past actions just throw any of that out the window. This is what I'm trying to get at: Who I am, what I've done in the past, or what I personally think is not relevant no matter how much your feelings say they are. The only relevant thing is my argument. And since you can't respond to that, you can only tell me about your feelings and about what you feel is relevant, then you aren't presenting a case of why I'm wrong. You're presenting a case why you're mad about me voicing my opinion. And if you're looking for the silencing of dissenting opinions you've come to the wrong place.[2017-5-14. : 11:18 pm] Moose -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: Lanthanide Strawman. And in this case Ex is correct. People are misrepresenting what he said. For example lil-inf: He argued that Ex is trying to stop people from mapping, when in Fact he said the opposite. It's UNDERSTANDABLE that, because of Ex's tone, people thought his remark "have at it" is meant sarcastically. But if you look at it closer you realize he said it because he was upset. What's to misrepresent? He told him straight up never to even imply that TS could be a positive for SEN. If some random did that in a production or assistance thread for another map, I'd like to think our mods would bop that in a heartbeat.[2017-5-14. : 11:18 pm] Broflamingo -- ExcaliburExcalibur shouted: Mini Moose 2707 Argue that TS could be beneficial to SEN, have a net gain impact, and that it won't be a repeat of last time. Several people have already presented points he could make as part of that argument. Ex, i sound like a broken record but: THERE IS POWER IN NOT SAYING A WORD.[2017-5-14. : 11:17 pm] Broflamingo -- ExcaliburExcalibur shouted: Mini Moose 2707 Argue that TS could be beneficial to SEN, have a net gain impact, and that it won't be a repeat of last time. Several people have already presented points he could make as part of that argument. Ex i can't be more anymore honest with you, you just came off as salty and being negative. It's a visceral feeling, and sure maybe there is some merit to your argument but your past actions just throw any of that out the window.[2017-5-14. : 11:16 pm] Broflamingo -- ExcaliburExcalibur shouted: I see why you're trying to incorporate politics as an example but I don't think it actually applies. Honestly Bro, I'll say it for the fifth time: Address my argument. Do it. Stop going THE TONE THOUGH. Its like when people we're going BUT HER EMAILS during the election. Address the argument or back down. Just like Hilary you come with a negative stigma in this context, your arguments are overridden by your past actions. And I just disagree with everything that you said. Example, despite toxicity Moose and CAFG were able to curate some of the player base into benefits for SEN. I just don't think you are as smooth as them and it gives you bad image in this context.[2017-5-14. : 11:15 pm] Excalibur -- Mini Moose 2707Mini Moose 2707 shouted: What even do you want him to argue? That 8 years ago didn't happen? That's insane. Argue that TS could be beneficial to SEN, have a net gain impact, and that it won't be a repeat of last time. Several people have already presented points he could make as part of that argument.[2017-5-14. : 11:14 pm] Zoan -- Mini Moose 2707Mini Moose 2707 shouted: What even do you want him to argue? That 8 years ago didn't happen? That's insane. ya but it didn't tho in my opinion.[2017-5-14. : 11:13 pm] Moose -- What even do you want him to argue? That 8 years ago didn't happen? That's insane.[2017-5-14. : 11:12 pm] Excalibur -- I see why you're trying to incorporate politics as an example but I don't think it actually applies. Honestly Bro, I'll say it for the fifth time: Address my argument. Do it. Stop going THE TONE THOUGH. Its like when people we're going BUT HER EMAILS during the election. Address the argument or back down.[2017-5-14. : 11:12 pm] Broflamingo -- ExcaliburExcalibur shouted: ....But this isn't politics? And the context of you being a Leading figure here seems to be lost on you and some others. There is an awareness you appear to be lacking, and im saying this with an utmost respect.[2017-5-14. : 11:10 pm] Broflamingo -- ExcaliburExcalibur shouted: ....But this isn't politics? Seemed like politics/Beef to me. That long of a response and thorwing people/opinions about a map under the Bus. I mean dude, people aren't robots. The tone was negative, it was an old arugment, and it appeared you were taking subliminal shots at UU. Being somewhat politically savvy you could have worded that much better and left out the negativity, yet you opened a can of worms that divided people. It became political.[2017-5-14. : 11:06 pm] Broflamingo -- ExcaliburExcalibur shouted: I guess my main gripe is this: Why is everyone talking about my motives/tone/preference/the fact that I'm staff and not my argument? Why is all of that relevant but the actual argument I presented is not? And this goes back to my original point, there is power in just not saying a word, especially one colored with negativity.[2017-5-14. : 11:04 pm] Broflamingo -- ExcaliburExcalibur shouted: I guess my main gripe is this: Why is everyone talking about my motives/tone/preference/the fact that I'm staff and not my argument? Why is all of that relevant but the actual argument I presented is not? You guys seem to forget people are humans. Yes the logic is sound blah blah, but perceptions, gut feelings, and history play a part as well. No matter how much you argue with Logic, people will see through veil of "ITS JUST A LOGICAL ARGUMENT". Guess why its called politics huh.[2017-5-14. : 11:02 pm] Broflamingo -- ExcaliburExcalibur shouted: Broflamingo If thats the case then why are you accusing a Staff member who illustrated his point of being dishonest / needing to read between the words for their actual intentions? Is your opinion that a Staff member by default is a dishonest person with a motive they don't wish to admit? Or are you still assigning that to me personally over my dislike for TS? You know what, again, you don't guys don't get it. You can hide behind logic all you want, but there is context and history. And your argument comes from an emotional place that is negative toward TS.[2017-5-14. : 11:01 pm] Excalibur -- I guess my main gripe is this: Why is everyone talking about my motives/tone/preference/the fact that I'm staff and not my argument? Why is all of that relevant but the actual argument I presented is not?[2017-5-14. : 11:00 pm] Excalibur -- BroflamingoBroflamingo shouted: NudeRaider Also with all credited due respect to EX, he is a mod. that comes with a degree of influence and power, it's not like hes some mad random throwing his two cents in. Everything is contextual If thats the case then why are you accusing a Staff member who illustrated his point of being dishonest / needing to read between the words for their actual intentions? Is your opinion that a Staff member by default is a dishonest person with a motive they don't wish to admit? Or are you still assigning that to me personally over my dislike for TS?[2017-5-14. : 10:57 pm] Broflamingo -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: Lanthanide Strawman. And in this case Ex is correct. People are misrepresenting what he said. For example lil-inf: He argued that Ex is trying to stop people from mapping, when in Fact he said the opposite. It's UNDERSTANDABLE that, because of Ex's tone, people thought his remark "have at it" is meant sarcastically. But if you look at it closer you realize he said it because he was upset. Also with all credited due respect to EX, he is a mod. that comes with a degree of influence and power, it's not like hes some mad random throwing his two cents in. Everything is contextual[2017-5-14. : 10:56 pm] Excalibur -- The only thing I'd add Nude is that due to my long standing reputation here I feel like I get less of a fair shot at having my viewpoint considered. "Its just Ex being an impassioned zealot again. He's obviously being disingenuous. He can't have a factual point of why this is a bad idea."[2017-5-14. : 10:54 pm] Broflamingo -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: Lanthanide Strawman. And in this case Ex is correct. People are misrepresenting what he said. For example lil-inf: He argued that Ex is trying to stop people from mapping, when in Fact he said the opposite. It's UNDERSTANDABLE that, because of Ex's tone, people thought his remark "have at it" is meant sarcastically. But if you look at it closer you realize he said it because he was upset. Inferno was right, just because he didnt say "I HATE TEMPLE SIEGE DONT MAP IT" doesn't mean the tone or the subtext isn't discouraging or throwing shade toward a Map/Project/Person.[2017-5-14. : 10:53 pm] NudeRaider -- BroflamingoBroflamingo shouted: Dem0n This. NudeRaider Nude that maybe true but that wall of text was not relevant to what the main topic was about. Again, it's like the logic maybe sound but there was a emotional impetus to throw negativity into the convo. was mainly replying to the shoutbox convo, because everyone seemed to be arguing about a different thing.[2017-5-14. : 10:52 pm] Broflamingo -- Dem0nDem0n shouted: It's like if I had an emotionally charged response to someone asking how to set up a bot and cited how flooded op SEN got 7 years ago and how that should never happen again. It is not relevant. This. NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: So yes, when Ex is mad he's not the most eloquent of persons, but if you actually try to understand his point it's not that hard and there's no reason to become butthurt or open 20 discussion topics on what Ex didn't even try to say. Nude that maybe true but that wall of text was not relevant to what the main topic was about. Again, it's like the logic maybe sound but there was a emotional impetus to throw negativity into the convo.[2017-5-14. : 10:50 pm] NudeRaider -- * Ex's recommendation on that matter was to not associate SEN with TS to prevent it.[2017-5-14. : 10:50 pm] Dem0n -- It's like if I had an emotionally charged response to someone asking how to set up a bot and cited how flooded op SEN got 7 years ago and how that should never happen again. It is not relevant.[2017-5-14. : 10:48 pm] Dem0n -- Ex had no business bringing any of that up in that thread. That's it. Nothing else. /discussion[2017-5-14. : 10:48 pm] NudeRaider -- So yes, when Ex is mad he's not the most eloquent of persons, but if you actually try to understand his point it's not that hard and there's no reason to become butthurt or open 20 discussion topics on what Ex didn't even try to say.[2017-5-14. : 10:48 pm] NudeRaider -- THIS is the point y'all should argue (and some did): Will TS cause and influx of toxic members? And if yes how, and maybe how to prevent or mitigate it. Ex's recommendation on that matter was to prevent it was to not associate SEN with TS.[2017-5-14. : 10:48 pm] NudeRaider -- Upset because of past experiences where TS has brought several people to SEN that weren't behaving up to par. Bro interpreted that (falsely) as a personal beef with TS itself. The distiction is minor, but important: The emotions stem from the fear of history repeating itself. 'The beef' is not with TS, its maker, the players, it becoming popular, or people improving on it.[2017-5-14. : 10:48 pm] NudeRaider -- LanthanideLanthanide shouted: if you think there are multiple people misunderstanding what you've written, then actually the problem is your writing Strawman. And in this case Ex is correct. People are misrepresenting what he said. For example lil-inf: He argued that Ex is trying to stop people from mapping, when in Fact he said the opposite. It's UNDERSTANDABLE that, because of Ex's tone, people thought his remark "have at it" is meant sarcastically. But if you look at it closer you realize he said it because he was upset.[2017-5-14. : 10:30 pm] Moose -- BroflamingoBroflamingo shouted: Mini Moose 2707 Fuck it, looks like i will have to get in the dirt and figure out how to work triggers. Gonna get this map made one way or another. Mini Moose 2707Mini Moose 2707 shouted: SMH, gotta spend 5 hours searching for shouts so I can quote myself now Mini Moose 2707Mini Moose 2707 shouted: MasterJohnny Yeah, turns out when you have a lot of obscure executables that sometimes trigger false positives in malware scanners, you get flagged. There we go. |
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