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[05:47 pm] NimoStar -- If its any consolation, the human brain would still mop the floor with this bot if it wasn't limited by the mechanical interface[05:34 pm] NimoStar -- Well. The bot didn't come up with any new strategy. It just has superhuman micro. Hard to beat that. I reckon even the simplest dedicated chess engines are unbeatable for humans now.[10:54 am]  NudeRaider -- Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: NudeRaider did u watch the entire video? it's not one game. it's currently dominating the ladder at number 1 position. do ur research first! Oops, caught me there, no I haven't.  I was imagining how the game went. Sorry for that. Watching it now. brb[10:52 am] NudeRaider -- NimoStarNimoStar shouted: They were not "Unprepared" that was their fifth loss in a row against the bot. The other replays are also available that doesn't mean he was prepared. When humans come around with new strategies it often takes weeks until the pros figure out how to shut it down. Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: https://youtu.be/GiQ-cDtsZYw that's certainly a way more convincing argument for micro being "too good to beat".[08:35 am] NimoStar -- " its shown is that you can trade 1000's of apm to make up for lack of strategy"[03:12 am]  Oh_Man -- bunch of replays here: https://davechurchill.ca/starcraft/cog/results/2026/report/[03:07 am] Vrael -- though I wonder if at that level basically almost every match is over in like 3 minutes[03:05 am] Vrael -- but from a gameplay perspective I think all its shown is that you can trade 1000's of apm to make up for lack of strategy[03:04 am] Vrael -- cause like AttackUnitByID(ID_of_damaged_muta); is a lot different than clicking on it visually in the stack[03:03 am] Oh_Man -- it wuldnt surprise me if this thing starts essentially "solving" SCBW, or at the very least discovering new metas[03:02 am] Oh_Man -- so far it's shown u can dmoniate toss with completely non-traditional units AND its shown u can shutdown zerg muta-ball without building a single missile turret[03:01 am] Vrael -- well I want to see it put its 6000 apm to good use, by destroying humans in interesting ways[03:00 am] Oh_Man -- i cannot comment any more beyond just quoting wat the expert is saying unfortunately i dont know anything bout this stuff[03:00 am] Oh_Man -- they have a long way to go until they cvan make a truly 'fair' AI vs human matchup[03:00 am] Vrael -- yeah but it looks like pluto's eAPM is still 6000 based on issuing all those orders[02:59 am] Oh_Man -- "Additionally humans have to take actions to get information. Want to know how much health that Zealot has? Got to waste frames and an action selecting it. BWAPI AI wants to know that Zealot's health? It just checks it without having to select it nor waste the frames."[02:59 am] Oh_Man -- "Pluto taking an action every 6 frames also doesn't mean it'd be on-par with a player with 240 APM. Players usually spam keybinds to inflate their APM and be "in the rythm" when they need a burst of speed. A bot will always outdo them, because its actions all mean something, while a human often does something just to keep "the rythm" going. Difference between APM and effective APM."[02:58 am] Vrael -- if its issuing 12 commands in a single 'action' to 12 separate units, (and based on the gameplay footage we know these 12 commands are truly 12 independent commands), I don't see where the inflation is coming from[02:57 am] Oh_Man -- " as far as I remember about about bwapi internal workings, you can order a unit to do an action by calling a method. However, in-game way to order a unit is to select it first, then order the unit around (or a bunch of units). It takes 2 actions for a human to select 12 units and order them to attack, however, the dude who implemented this, probably selects each individual unit and orders it around in the same frame, meaning that it will have 12 times more actions for the same operation a human is doing."[02:57 am] Vrael -- Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: "- Pluto takes one action every 6 frames, which is exactly 240 APM. But when it issues commands to 12 units, they get counted as 12 separate commands, inflating the displayed APM." I actually dont understand this, like, how is it exactly 240 apm but also 6000 apm[02:55 am] Oh_Man -- VraelVrael shouted: one action every 6 frames *gets out calculator* lets see are they using hyper triggers? lol[02:55 am] Oh_Man -- also inrersting: "- "333" is also running Pluto with maphacks enabled. Pluto is designed to play with normal vision. It's not even clear that the maphack is helping Pluto more than it's confusing Pluto."[02:55 am] Vrael -- one action every 6 frames *gets out calculator* lets see are they using hyper triggers?[02:54 am] Vrael -- and yeah its cool that the AI makes weird units but if I had 6000 apm I could probably just micro scv's and kill anyone[02:54 am] Oh_Man -- "- Pluto takes one action every 6 frames, which is exactly 240 APM. But when it issues commands to 12 units, they get counted as 12 separate commands, inflating the displayed APM."[02:52 am] Vrael -- if for example, we slowed down the game by a factor of 10 to allow the humans to do 10x more (or capped the AI at 500 like they did with alphastar) we'd see more meaningful gameplay perhaps[02:51 am] Vrael -- like when I get my 60apm ass whooped by a 600apm pro, its because my control group usage is dwarfed by the pro's raw speed, there isn't even strategy really[02:50 am] Vrael -- Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: also the 6000 APM is kind of a fake/incorrect number, which is xplained by the AI maker in the comments. it's not using control groups, it doesnt have that functionality I think you're missing the point of how powerful being able to micro every unit individually, aka not use control groups, is[02:04 am] Oh_Man -- and templars psi storm as arty said is a strong counter to the marine med the bot was going, so the wraith was actually the correct play there[02:04 am] Oh_Man -- and the wraith was cloaking and going around sniping templars (which wuld be too hard to perfectly micro in a normal human game and the wraith wuld die or distract u too much trying to micro it vs doing other things)[02:03 am] Oh_Man -- they usually require too much micro so it's 'dumb' for a human to use them. but in the hands of the AI they become god tier, ghosts locking down goons and helping get them picked[02:03 am] Oh_Man -- artosis also didnt understand a couple of its plays, coz they make no sense for a human, but they did for the AI. The wraith and the ghost for example[02:01 am] Oh_Man -- it's issuing orders to each unit individually, so the number sounds more hype than it actually is, it's just an artifact of it not being able to use control groups[02:01 am] Oh_Man -- also the 6000 APM is kind of a fake/incorrect number, which is xplained by the AI maker in the comments. it's not using control groups, it doesnt have that functionality[02:00 am] Oh_Man -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: Oh_Man nothing too special tbh. the human player wasn't ready to combat the push that stretched almost the whole map. So this game means nothing. We'll have to see how it goes once the humans have adjusted for its unorthodox strategies. did u watch the entire video? it's not one game. it's currently dominating the ladder at number 1 position. do ur research first![11:10 pm] NimoStar -- But Terran players did win the game against the bot. So it is conclusive, Terran OP  =[11:09 pm] NimoStar -- They were not "Unprepared" that was their fifth loss in a row against the bot. The other replays are also available[10:37 pm] NudeRaider -- VraelVrael shouted: wasnt even that really, they 6000 apm just made the terran army so much more value/$ that the extra economy didnt matter Well yes and no. The apm made him win the battle, but I'm not convinced a pro player can't account for that. He got caught with his pants down so it's not really representative of a prepared player. And the extra economy absolutely would've mattered if that push didn't almost immediately end the game.[2026-9-19. : 6:38 pm] Vrael -- wasnt even that really, they 6000 apm just made the terran army so much more value/$ that the extra economy didnt matter[2026-9-19. : 1:58 pm] NudeRaider -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: Oh_Man nothing too special tbh. the human player wasn't ready to combat the push that stretched almost the whole map. So this game means nothing. We'll have to see how it goes once the humans have adjusted for its unorthodox strategies. they basically lost most of their army in one big battle and didn't have the time and production to leverage the economic advantage and come back from that blow.[2026-9-19. : 1:55 pm] NudeRaider -- Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: https://youtu.be/1vsTqNwHquE omg guys it's happening. ITS HAPPENING. EVERONY STAY CALM. STAY F:wob::wob:CKING CALM! not sure why you are so hyped, when basically the same happened 7 years ago with AlphaStar on SC2.[2026-9-19. : 1:53 pm] NudeRaider -- Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: 6000 apm XD, i dont even understand how it culd came back wen it was 5 base vs 2 nothing too special tbh. the human player wasn't ready to combat the push that stretched almost the whole map. So this game means nothing. We'll have to see how it goes once the humans have adjusted for its unorthodox strategies. |
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