Not sure where you're seeing that, since for 0 minerals you can only see it on the gas mines themselves.



The triggers that actually control the minerals are separate and uglier to look at, but I checked them and they add up to 16 and 46 as intended.

I cleaned it up and corrected the error.

Now you broke it the other way. You only needed to change 0 gas and 6 gas.

The correct numbers are:
16 / 21 / 27 / 33 / 37 / 41 / 46

I've been meaning to compute that for the current 2.5X version for a while now but have been too lazy to note the new mineral rates

See this attached spreadsheet I made for 2.08 quite a while ago which had the 6-gas break-even point computed at 17.13 minutes, just plug in the new values and double check the formulas for accuracy. It also does not have the new 6th gas 1000 bonus factored in.

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These quantitative analysis are awesome! I usually try to build the right combination of units that counters the opponent's before I gas up. Therefore, I personally don't believe there's the 'optimal' timing to gas since the army has to be right before I gas up.

Here is a glitch that I've noticed:

After a team takes out the cell, BOTH teams get the reinforcement spawn.

This has happened to me as the team who deserves the reinforcement spawn as well as the team who doesn't.

Has any one else ever noticed this? It does not happen very often in my experience.

If you've got a replay I'd be keen to see it.

I do have triggers in place for the very rare occurrence where both prison cells die at exactly the same time. This should result in a reinforcement spawn for each team, as well as the 150 mineral bonus and the hybrid. I've never actually tested it myself though, but the triggers are simple enough that I'm pretty sure it would work the way it is intended.

So perhaps you just had a case where both prisons died at exactly the same time? In all my games of DS, I've never seen this, although it's gotten close a handful of times.

Please, do smthn with TvP, there is no way for terran to win a compitent player. There is just a huge protoss advantage in lategame when opponent goes to mass stargates and fleat beacons, cus carriers are well protected and they accumulate to a huge mass no matter what terran builds

mb terran air should be stronger/cheaper or protoss air weaker/more expensive. I'm not shure, that's for u to decide

if u think i'm a noob and full of it i'm ready to play with any terran on iccup to confirm it


may be that's not the best example, but i'm shure it illustrates my point

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Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Mar 23 2012, 7:15 pm by Fierrary.

maybe you should stop massing wraiths against P

carriers are lolo without back up and really only add to army versatility, not so much strength

i've tried everything to stop that kind of army, nothing worked, even remotely

I do have to agree that if two high-level T player and high-level P player dukes it out, it's impossible as a Terran to beat Protoss in straight-army battle. Your ground army gets melted by the Reavers & Disruption Web while there is really no good counter against Carriers accompanied by Stargate units. Your only hope is to exploit the fact that Nuke is cheaper than MC and go from there, slowly killing the opponent.

I just played a TvP 1v1 game last night, I was P as usual. Game ended up lasting an hour.

He had been ahead of me the whole game, since protoss have no real good counter to reapers early on. I think one of Protoss' weakness is that they don't have any strong units in the ~$400 mineral range except for void rays. DTs, Archons and Reavers, which have high DPS, all cost $550-700, so a terran can mass lots of cheap units with high HP but Protoss can't get up the numbers to beat them easily. Archons and reavers also do explosive damage and therefore only 50% vs small units like reapers.

Anyway, he was ahead basically the whole game until it got to the end. I ended up getting about 15 stargates, 7-8 carrires and then built about 12 additional citadels for the DA's just because I could. In a clean battle, with no previous units on the field, usually the terran would push my army. If either of us got a ball going, then we would push the other.

I ended up winning, but that's only because, as usual, he saved up his money rather than spending it. There were several times early on that if he'd just nuked me, I wouldn't have been forced to boom as my only response, but he simply kept saving his money. In the end I had 2 booms left.


Dweb does make a huge different for PvT, and can be quite strong vs heavy hydras too. I might throw in another ability on the Thor: dispel dwebs in addition to dispelling dswarms. It's not a huge power, but every bit extra helps I think. Also with the carrier nerfs in 2.52 I think this might a bit better; although at the same time, DA's MC is going to be more powerful as it will no longer target goliaths in particular.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Mar 23 2012, 8:41 pm by Lanthanide.

I unfortunately forgot to save the replay when the double reinforcements happened. But check out this replay. The silo Brutalisk does not explode, and just wrecks for the rest of the game practically.

I honestly didnt even notice it until i got my 6th gas. I'm not really sure if it was even from their silo, I need to take a look at it again, but check it out. Never seen anything like it.

EDIT: Ok i found out what happened. My teammates Mothership froze the Brutalisk, and as it was frozen, the opponents Zerg Infestor mind controlled it! This not only made the Brutalisk the opponents, but it did not boom and remained invincible until a special was used later on in the game. This all takes place at about 21:00-22:00.

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Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Mar 24 2012, 1:07 am by stimmed..

I completely agree.

Lanth you may have a good point in having Thor disable Dweb, I would like to see how that plays out. If it doesn't work out, I suggest putting a limit on the amount of carriers one can have, and maybe at 4 interceptors max a piece.

This has been reported several times, and in 2.51 I tried to fix it. I screwed the triggers up though, so it's still there. It is definitely fixed in 2.52. Basically the infestor can sometimes steal any hero, including the brualisk, when it shouldn't be able to.

Not sure what you mean here. The triggers will work, it is pretty straight forward. It's just not going to be that powerful an ability since the thor isn't super-mobile and will tend to stand still and attack once it has a target. This is really just me taking advantage of the fact that I could do this ability with the thor easily, but I don't expect it to be super great.

I've gone over this multiple times. If I put a limit on carriers, then I'll have to put a limit on BCs as well. Most carriers already have a max of 4 interceptors, as well. Each protoss player can spawn 3 Tempest Carriers per spawn cycle (Guntrithor hero) that have a max of 8 interceptors; all other carriers have a max of 4.

i'm afraid that won't help either, cus your reinforced BC's will destroy your own temple much faster then any protoss units

the problem is not exactly in carriers, they are just immortal because of their range and backup. I also doubt that if we remove Dweb that will change much. May be terran ground units will still be busy with protoss ground army. The general problem i think is in bad antiair for terran. i mean corsairs don't shoot ground units, but terrans only have valkiries, max 4. Also stargate is too cheap, terrans starport and lab should be much cheaper then

and don't forget about splash from mothership, psy storms and archons

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Mar 24 2012, 8:01 am by Fierrary.

Stargate too cheap? It's the most expensive of the 'basic' air unit buildings at $640. Greater spire costs $606 (and spire is only $317) and wraiths cost $545. The wraiths come out at 0.86 HP per $ while the protoss stargate is only 0.72 HP per $.

Basically it looks like you're saying Protoss have too many units that do splash damage to air, while Terrans only have valkyries which suck. There's not a whole lot I can do about that, since I can't change the basic weapons and their attack type. Note that BCs have Normal attack type while Wraiths only have a single attack; Corsairs and Scouts are both explosive and Scouts do 2x attacks so get double armor penalty compared to other air units. The only air unit that does Normal damage for protoss is the interceptor, and that only does 11 damage so against many targets with 4 or 5 armor it isn't doing much damage at all, and does only 1 point per attack to the temple with 10 armor.

Try using Nuke at an 'awkward' timing so that the Protoss has to make a hard decision whether he should counter it immediately or wait until the next turn. Using 'do-it-and-cancel' technique might also be useful if your opponent complies to it; the Protoss lose the most amount of money by canceling the shield battery.

i agree with all that. i didn't mean that stargate should cost more. i mean corsairs are too strong against both terran and zerg air.

So i have an idea how to ballance protoss air. why don't we separate corsairs from scouts - stargate will build appropriate amount of scouts for reasonable price and mb observatory will build corsairs, you can call them void rays. there also must be limit for them. may be 4-8, accordin' to valkyries limit. So they may have much stronger parameters, but will be limited, and that makes protoss air much more equal with others