None.
Don't worry guys, I don't want to make a public release. I talked to UU today, and he said he'd ask if he wants help. I just wanted to show you my ideas, and I think a lot of the suggestions on this map would work better with attached demo files so people could see what we're talking about. I think for these sc1 remakes to succeed, it's important to keep the old communities together. Most new players are casuals and don't have the patience for the higher skill games.
I hate Faz just as much as anyone - but I will say he's an avid AoS player in general having played them all, which is more than I can say, and he had the biggest hand in recognizing mine HP needed to be reduced from 10 to 3.
Although he also had alot to do with moose's horrid M4-M7 :x
Although he also had alot to do with moose's horrid M4-M7 :x
http://waitbutwhy.com/2013/09/why-generation-y-yuppies-are-unhappy.html
"We're being taught to hate downwards"
"We're being taught to hate downwards"
I have been away for a while, and haven't looked too in depth at the comments until now. I thought I should just wrap up my beliefs.
While I agree that you shouldn't be rewarded for being a worse player, failing to kill your enemy doesn't mean you are worse than them. Not rewarded for failing; rewarded for striking.
Yes, but being countered and being better should grant you leniency.
There hasn't been any tournaments in a very long time. TS and it's players has changed an evolved quite a bit since the last tournament, learning more quirks, advantages, and weaknesses, as the game aged. While tourneys are generally a valid source of good tactics and play, players are now more competent and would beat old play-styles used previously... just as MMA in the old days is completely different than today.
TS is the only game I play on SC. I play 3-6 days a week, for 2-5 hours each session. I usually play with a bunch of regulars online. However, I believe that the fundamental difference in reasoning of almost all of our dispute, comes from a tournament style vs causal style attitude. You believe that choosing your hero is an essential part of strategic planning for countering and teamwork, where not strategically choosing is associated with lacking the general knowledge of the game. I, and most of the others I played with, tend to look down upon choosing, favoring improvised teamwork with whatever group you are dealt- in which, the general attitude of picking to purposely counter, is associated with lacking skill to overcome a "fair" fight. In your scenario, the countered should lose due to a poor setup, assuming similar playing skill on both ends. In my scenario, I believe the countered should still be at a disadvantage, just not as wide of a gap as it currently is, since both ends are given a "fair random". I don't have anything against a game of selecting teams, I just don't usually play in games that do.
That's fine.
Quote from Fashioned
Harassing the other player and stopping him farm IS the reward. I hope you aren't talking about fail-ganks. A player should never be rewarded because they are worse than the other players.
Quote from Fashioned
If you are countered by the other team, you are worse than them and therefore should lose. That is balance.
Quote from DoLLe
-Wally and company in the tournament coming back from the spawn cheese.
-Maxx, albeit trolling, proved he beat Faz-/Decency and friends multiple times 1v3.
-Myself and iceman16 in a tournament match when fdsa72 dropped still winning 2v3.
-In the 2nd tournament Maxx and Iceman didnt have a solid third, still continued on to win, despite going against three well established team memebers in the finals
-Twoja,tinypest and some random knowing they cant win through pure hero play used spawn to rape the tourney.
-Maxx, albeit trolling, proved he beat Faz-/Decency and friends multiple times 1v3.
-Myself and iceman16 in a tournament match when fdsa72 dropped still winning 2v3.
-In the 2nd tournament Maxx and Iceman didnt have a solid third, still continued on to win, despite going against three well established team memebers in the finals
-Twoja,tinypest and some random knowing they cant win through pure hero play used spawn to rape the tourney.
Quote from DoLLe
I'm wondering if you played temple siege regularly or you just mapped it regularly.
Quote from 
Jack
JackFlash, sorry, but your system probably won't be implimented. I suggest you stop arguing about it or keep it to PMs. We may make a test version like that sometime but for now we won't be developing it.
None.
Newflash!
My brand new Lenovo laptop has died (and it's just 4months old)
Tho it doesn't really matter in terms of creating the map, I was hoping to see what TZ and 7Owls have come up with. Now I can't.... And so I won't be able to provide future plans yet.
Nevertheless, I do have an idera that I want to run through you guys. But it is to be implemented (if it ever happens) way way later
I've been playing Transformice for the entire week, and I was contemplating what keeps players coming back. I arrive at the answer that it was, again, abusing the Skinner Box of rewarding after an amt of play - i.e. The Shop where you can buy outfits for your mouse, and the Titles, which show up beneath your name..
Then, I had a brainstorm. Why not give Titles for players in TS2, or even other maps, for playing? Since it's possible to record a player's win/lose, we can make it so that win gives you 3 points, and lose gives you 1 point. And for 50 points, you can buy a title like <<The Dark Lord>> to show whenever your name pops up. Like this
We can have titles like The Devouring One, The Unclean one, Gui Montag (throwbacks to SC1). .. Obvious titles like The Dark Lord, The Great Hero.. and Lulsy titles/Niche titles(for a much higher price) like <<It's Over 9000>> <<I herd u lik Mudkipz>> <<Fuhrer>> <<I like to Move it Move it>> and etc.
I think this will increase the longevity and replayability of TS2, and probably any game that implements this system, without causing any harm, since it doesn't have anything to do with the gameplay.
My brand new Lenovo laptop has died (and it's just 4months old)
Tho it doesn't really matter in terms of creating the map, I was hoping to see what TZ and 7Owls have come up with. Now I can't.... And so I won't be able to provide future plans yet.
Nevertheless, I do have an idera that I want to run through you guys. But it is to be implemented (if it ever happens) way way later
I've been playing Transformice for the entire week, and I was contemplating what keeps players coming back. I arrive at the answer that it was, again, abusing the Skinner Box of rewarding after an amt of play - i.e. The Shop where you can buy outfits for your mouse, and the Titles, which show up beneath your name..
Then, I had a brainstorm. Why not give Titles for players in TS2, or even other maps, for playing? Since it's possible to record a player's win/lose, we can make it so that win gives you 3 points, and lose gives you 1 point. And for 50 points, you can buy a title like <<The Dark Lord>> to show whenever your name pops up. Like this
RevJyushee <<The Dark Lord>> has been Slain by UnholyUrineIfHeBoughtTheGame <<The Pessismistic>>
We can have titles like The Devouring One, The Unclean one, Gui Montag (throwbacks to SC1). .. Obvious titles like The Dark Lord, The Great Hero.. and Lulsy titles/Niche titles(for a much higher price) like <<It's Over 9000>> <<I herd u lik Mudkipz>> <<Fuhrer>> <<I like to Move it Move it>> and etc.
I think this will increase the longevity and replayability of TS2, and probably any game that implements this system, without causing any harm, since it doesn't have anything to do with the gameplay.
None.
:payne:
Quote from UnholyUrine
UnholyUrineNewflash!
My brand new Lenovo laptop has died (and it's just 4months old)
Tho it doesn't really matter in terms of creating the map, I was hoping to see what TZ and 7Owls have come up with. Now I can't.... And so I won't be able to provide future plans yet.
Nevertheless, I do have an idera that I want to run through you guys. But it is to be implemented (if it ever happens) way way later
I've been playing Transformice for the entire week, and I was contemplating what keeps players coming back. I arrive at the answer that it was, again, abusing the Skinner Box of rewarding after an amt of play - i.e. The Shop where you can buy outfits for your mouse, and the Titles, which show up beneath your name..
Then, I had a brainstorm. Why not give Titles for players in TS2, or even other maps, for playing? Since it's possible to record a player's win/lose, we can make it so that win gives you 3 points, and lose gives you 1 point. And for 50 points, you can buy a title like <<The Dark Lord>> to show whenever your name pops up. Like this
We can have titles like The Devouring One, The Unclean one, Gui Montag (throwbacks to SC1). .. Obvious titles like The Dark Lord, The Great Hero.. and Lulsy titles/Niche titles(for a much higher price) like <<It's Over 9000>> <<I herd u lik Mudkipz>> <<Fuhrer>> <<I like to Move it Move it>> and etc.
I think this will increase the longevity and replayability of TS2, and probably any game that implements this system, without causing any harm, since it doesn't have anything to do with the gameplay.
My brand new Lenovo laptop has died (and it's just 4months old)
Tho it doesn't really matter in terms of creating the map, I was hoping to see what TZ and 7Owls have come up with. Now I can't.... And so I won't be able to provide future plans yet.
Nevertheless, I do have an idera that I want to run through you guys. But it is to be implemented (if it ever happens) way way later
I've been playing Transformice for the entire week, and I was contemplating what keeps players coming back. I arrive at the answer that it was, again, abusing the Skinner Box of rewarding after an amt of play - i.e. The Shop where you can buy outfits for your mouse, and the Titles, which show up beneath your name..
Then, I had a brainstorm. Why not give Titles for players in TS2, or even other maps, for playing? Since it's possible to record a player's win/lose, we can make it so that win gives you 3 points, and lose gives you 1 point. And for 50 points, you can buy a title like <<The Dark Lord>> to show whenever your name pops up. Like this
RevJyushee <<The Dark Lord>> has been Slain by UnholyUrineIfHeBoughtTheGame <<The Pessismistic>>
We can have titles like The Devouring One, The Unclean one, Gui Montag (throwbacks to SC1). .. Obvious titles like The Dark Lord, The Great Hero.. and Lulsy titles/Niche titles(for a much higher price) like <<It's Over 9000>> <<I herd u lik Mudkipz>> <<Fuhrer>> <<I like to Move it Move it>> and etc.
I think this will increase the longevity and replayability of TS2, and probably any game that implements this system, without causing any harm, since it doesn't have anything to do with the gameplay.
None.
>be faceless void >mfw I have no face
To make this secure, I'd have to finish that program I told you about for recording TS stats, and only players who use the program would be able to use that feature.
Red classic.
"In short, their absurdities are so extreme that it is painful even to quote them."
"In short, their absurdities are so extreme that it is painful even to quote them."
Lols. Well it's not really that Important.
Why'd u think it looks horrible? Cause I used Lulsy titles?
Why'd u think it looks horrible? Cause I used Lulsy titles?
None.
Quote from FlashBeer
There hasn't been any tournaments in a very long time. TS and it's players has changed an evolved quite a bit since the last tournament, learning more quirks, advantages, and weaknesses, as the game aged. While tourneys are generally a valid source of good tactics and play, players are now more competent and would beat old play-styles used previously... just as MMA in the old days is completely different than today.
What? Your response isnt even relevant to what I said about comebacks being inherently built within the TS engine. TS is based on comebacks and its within the design. What does your statement have to do with anything? And no offense you are still a random, never heard of you a day in my life. Only as a mapper, not a TS'er. These people whom I have mentioned more or less have been on the TS scene for quite awhile, defined the metagame, and have been in tournaments. Seriously, who are you again?
The "old style" that you so dubiously name, still has huge merit especially when you have guys running around still saying the following:
Quote from 
rockz
rockzI have a hatred for mutant. He's picked in every game. He's not easily countered.
Assault: probably the only counter, even then it's not much of a counter, as you still need multitasking skills to play well
Medic: stalemate early game. Mutant after l3/4
Assasin: is owned
Warrior: Instant death if he l2s. In general, going melee with mutant is asking for death, and warrior is only melee.
Volt: another decent counter, I suppose. Hard to hit with l1 though.
LM: stalemate early game. Mutant after l3/4. Mutant very early game.
Archer: About even
Summoner: can't train well
DM: easy to dodge curses, hard to hit with a mael.
Mech: big l2 target when not in vult. Can usually run away easily, so pretty much a stalemate.
Special ops: About even
Of the counters, volt is sickeningly weak vs archer and mech, and many other units. Nothing can survive a perfectly placed l2, and often times you only have to take 1-2 hits when setting it up, so you can have 200 life and kill something with ease if they don't have many hp ups. I rather think a nerf wouldn't be hard (take away some of the l2/l3 units). However, my skill with dealing with mutant is irrelevant. Point is he's always picked. How about playing someone else for a change? Banning pick is an easy way to balance the game, regardless, and tell which characters need balancing.
Assault: probably the only counter, even then it's not much of a counter, as you still need multitasking skills to play well
Medic: stalemate early game. Mutant after l3/4
Assasin: is owned
Warrior: Instant death if he l2s. In general, going melee with mutant is asking for death, and warrior is only melee.
Volt: another decent counter, I suppose. Hard to hit with l1 though.
LM: stalemate early game. Mutant after l3/4. Mutant very early game.
Archer: About even
Summoner: can't train well
DM: easy to dodge curses, hard to hit with a mael.
Mech: big l2 target when not in vult. Can usually run away easily, so pretty much a stalemate.
Special ops: About even
Of the counters, volt is sickeningly weak vs archer and mech, and many other units. Nothing can survive a perfectly placed l2, and often times you only have to take 1-2 hits when setting it up, so you can have 200 life and kill something with ease if they don't have many hp ups. I rather think a nerf wouldn't be hard (take away some of the l2/l3 units). However, my skill with dealing with mutant is irrelevant. Point is he's always picked. How about playing someone else for a change? Banning pick is an easy way to balance the game, regardless, and tell which characters need balancing.
*/facepalm*
"Evolved" you say Flashbeer? I've been trying to teach strategy to guys like this since 08-09.
This whole post is full of noob trash and misconceptions. And this statement was made in late 2010. "Evolved" indeed.
You can have the "New Style" while I'll stick with the "OLD PRO STYLE". Anybody with a half of brain would lol at this.
Quote from FlashBeer
TS is the only game I play on SC. I play 3-6 days a week, for 2-5 hours each session. I usually play with a bunch of regulars online. However, I believe that the fundamental difference in reasoning of almost all of our dispute, comes from a tournament style vs causal style attitude. You believe that choosing your hero is an essential part of strategic planning for countering and teamwork, where not strategically choosing is associated with lacking the general knowledge of the game. I, and most of the others I played with, tend to look down upon choosing, favoring improvised teamwork with whatever group you are dealt- in which, the general attitude of picking to purposely counter, is associated with lacking skill to overcome a "fair" fight. In your scenario, the countered should lose due to a poor setup, assuming similar playing skill on both ends. In my scenario, I believe the countered should still be at a disadvantage, just not as wide of a gap as it currently is, since both ends are given a "fair random". I don't have anything against a game of selecting teams, I just don't usually play in games that do.
Another gotcha statement.
I have been through this argument Billions of times so im going to keep it brief. There is no skill in picking random. I say "Evolved" because this argument has been put to rest awhile back, yet you are bringing it up like its new. This is not evolution, this is pubstar nonsense resurfacing again. It was and has determined random is, so aptly named, for randoms. Is this coincidence that you are bringing this up? I would hope so.
This is why your skills are questionable as is your perception. Again, i'm trying to be as civil as I can when I say the following statement so don't mod me or flame me:
-->EVERYONE in TS who i have encountered who advocates random has been more-or-less bad to absolute trash<--
"Improvised Teamwork" a.k.a Picking random a.k.a lowering the skill ceiling. Look up a post Fashioned has written a VERY LONG WHILE back it should still be on here. It was very good, in summary he says randoms/pubs love to choose randomly simply because with the luck factor involved it throws any sort semblance of skill out the window. You know why 99% of pubs hated me, because I picked to win. "Luck" is pretty much the direct opposite of "Skill".
I will always pick to win, I know I'm not good with every hero nor do I pretend to be, but Im really good with 3-4 Heroes which can cover my other teamates imbalances in their hero picks. If you want to random to lose go for it, however every person that said I'm trash because "I pick" I proceed to faceroll them, then I either get dropped, raged, or they bring their friends and then I faceroll them too. Ironically this the same crowd who usually rush SpecOps and Mutant when given the chance to pick. Also the same crowd who says they are both overpowered.
If you random and you get something like Assault, Archer, SpecOps >VS< LM, Medic, War. Who do you think is going to win? Is there any skill involved. No, because you got bad picks vs good picks, made by the computer. This is also exacerbated because the godly team got +10 minerals to boot. Skill is picking a solid team, solid heroes, and random is for pubs who can't think and want a chance at a free win.
I don't care what you say, not everyone is good at every hero. Only one person I've encountered who can play nearly every hero decently sans DM was Iceman16, he also didnt like medic so he never chose it. When I play and the pubs cry "OMG DOLLE PICKED LULZ NOOB" and I'm alive at rines/lots/hydras supermanning the whole enemy team, while the noob who randomed DM is dead at first night still raging at me for not going in 1v3 mid. You'll see why random is trash.
Especially when the guy at the start of the match is screaming "RANDOM IS FOR PROS YOU NOOB!", then when he randoms DM and feeds orbs/lives and ask "Why did you random if you are not good with every hero?" and he responds either in two of the following ways:
- "SHUT UP NOOB"
or
- "DM IS MY WORST HERO, I HATE DM! XD"
And now for the meat and potatoes:
Quote from FlashBeer
In your scenario, the countered should lose due to a poor setup, assuming similar playing skill on both ends. In my scenario, I believe the countered should still be at a disadvantage, just not as wide of a gap as it currently is, since both ends are given a "fair random". I don't have anything against a game of selecting teams, I just don't usually play in games that do.
Ah ok now I see why you actually want this system implemented, because you don't like to pick and when you are hard countered when you randomed you dont like it. You want to reward no-skill random play. So you want this handicap system.
So Flashbeer, The +10 minerals and a decent shot at a free win due to F'd up hero choices potentially made by the comp wasn't alluring enough?
You want this terrible system of yours because you play random. When you are countered you are countered get over it. Here's an idea, pick smart and you wont be hard countered so badly and you will close this gap you speak of. Balancing because you are so hard countered when randoming heroes in pubstar games is not the way to fixing or adding to a game. You chose randomly deal with the consequences, you already get +10 minerals and a shot at a free win. Is this not enough? No I suppose it isn't, you wan't experience for failing to kill someone and landing skills.
In conclusion, Im going to put this bluntly: You should not touch the next generation of temple siege. Period. This statement you have so kindly provided us, right here just proves you are uniquely unsuited to do so.
"Evolved" indeed, Eh Flashbeer? I didn't keep it brief but i'm tired of hearing this same nonsense being brought up again.
Heres the mental checklist everyone should for determining skill level of someone in TS, lets run through it shall we?
(Correct me on any if I'm wrong and I'll apologize and retract the statements as I am a fair man)
-Have you said pubstar statements? Yes.
-Have you advocated for random? Yes.
-Have you ever been in a tournament or won one? No.
-Is your name well known in the TS circuit? No.
-Bad ideas stemming from lack of gameplay fundamentals and understanding? Yes.
-Mainly play random in pubs? Yes.
-Said you look down upon picking as "lacking skill"? Yes
-Have you said the following: LM/LING/SPECOPS IS OP'D!? No.
-Questioned the validity of tournament strategies?: Borderline
Congratulations, The only thing missing here from this list is the obligatory noob statement saying "OMG SPECOPS/MUTANT/LM NEEDS A NERF! SO OP'D" or "][cy is PRO!". Lacking skills indeed Flashbeer.
Now going through this list, is it fair to say that you are a pub/random? I don't know, I'll let the whomever reading decide. I'm done talking to you about this.
Post has been edited 19 time(s), last time on Mar 5 2011, 9:07 am by DoLLe.
None.
>be faceless void >mfw I have no face
When it comes to randoming, I agree with dolle, although not in such an aggressive manner 
Incidentally, in TS2, there'll be different modes, such as blind pick. I hope randoming won't be rewarded like it is in the more recent versions. And as for Moose and CAFG, they won't be in the team. Please don't bring them up again.
Incidentally, in TS2, there'll be different modes, such as blind pick. I hope randoming won't be rewarded like it is in the more recent versions. And as for Moose and CAFG, they won't be in the team. Please don't bring them up again.Red classic.
"In short, their absurdities are so extreme that it is painful even to quote them."
"In short, their absurdities are so extreme that it is painful even to quote them."
Quote from Jack
JackWhen it comes to randoming, I agree with dolle, although not in such an aggressive manner Incidentally, in TS2, there'll be different modes, such as blind pick. I hope randoming won't be rewarded like it is in the more recent versions. And as for Moose and CAFG, they won't be in the team. Please don't bring them up again.
Incidentally, in TS2, there'll be different modes, such as blind pick. I hope randoming won't be rewarded like it is in the more recent versions. And as for Moose and CAFG, they won't be in the team. Please don't bring them up again.Sorry about that I wont bring them up again. However jack you have to stamp out ideas like this or they get entertained. I didnt mean for this take up so much Forum time, however from the start he should have came out and said "When I random, I dont like being hard countered and I want a handicap system on top of +10 minerals and a free shot at winning"
If he would have said that from the outset, it would have ended this trivial argument much sooner.
None.
@Flashbeer
Those who still play suck more than ever because of their "new style", they are complete garbage who have no clue how to play, choose correctly, or work as a team. People actually think Saiyan(X_rated) is the best tser..., yea I LOL'd too.
Also people should never recieve a handicap for randoming; it justs enables bad players to be worse, encourages noobs to never get better/learn, and as DoLLe stated, lowers the skill ceiling.
@Jack
If these gameplay modes are inevitable... don't give all the choosing power to the host of the game, implement a system like the one in Desert Strike vSquare, make it a plurality system. This way people who actually want to play the game seriously can choose the skilled Pick mode over the noob "HAHA RANDOM FUN 4 ME" mode.
So let me recap, you've got several experienced players letting you know what NOT to do if you want TS2 to shine. Make the right decision, mappers.
Quote
There hasn't been any tournaments in a very long time. TS and it's players has changed an evolved quite a bit since the last tournament, learning more quirks, advantages, and weaknesses, as the game aged. While tourneys are generally a valid source of good tactics and play, players are now more competent and would beat old play-styles used previously... just as MMA in the old days is completely different than today.
Those who still play suck more than ever because of their "new style", they are complete garbage who have no clue how to play, choose correctly, or work as a team. People actually think Saiyan(X_rated) is the best tser..., yea I LOL'd too.
Also people should never recieve a handicap for randoming; it justs enables bad players to be worse, encourages noobs to never get better/learn, and as DoLLe stated, lowers the skill ceiling.
@Jack
Quote
Incidentally, in TS2, there'll be different modes, such as blind pick.
If these gameplay modes are inevitable... don't give all the choosing power to the host of the game, implement a system like the one in Desert Strike vSquare, make it a plurality system. This way people who actually want to play the game seriously can choose the skilled Pick mode over the noob "HAHA RANDOM FUN 4 ME" mode.
So let me recap, you've got several experienced players letting you know what NOT to do if you want TS2 to shine. Make the right decision, mappers.
None.
OVERWATCH STATUS GO
I assume the different game modes would be chosen in the lobby, not in the game, so if people don't want to play that specific mode, they can leave and join/start another lobby.
Currently Working On:
My Overwatch addiction.
Currently Working On: My Overwatch addiction.
Quote from FlashBeer
There hasn't been any tournaments in a very long time. TS and it's players has changed an evolved quite a bit since the last tournament, learning more quirks, advantages, and weaknesses, as the game aged. While tourneys are generally a valid source of good tactics and play, players are now more competent and would beat old play-styles used previously... just as MMA in the old days is completely different than today.
Quote from DoLLe
What? Your response isnt even relevant to the question. TS is based on comebacks and its within the design. What does your statement have to do with anything? And no offense you are still a random, never heard of you a day in my life. Only as a mapper, not a TS'er. These people more or less have been on the TS scene for quite awhile, who are you again?
I was questioning the validity of using info from tourneys. Not saying that old tourneys are full of BS- it's just my hypothesis that they are too outdated for comparison to how well people can play TS today. Although I may be wrong about it, I would require extensive testing of a modern day tourney, and comparing the results to all previous tourneys and observe a trend of game/skill "evolution", to persuade me otherwise.
Quote from DoLLe
The "old style" that you so dubiously name, still has huge merit especially when you have guys running around still saying:
Quote from DoLLe
"Evolved" you say? This is full of pub statements and misconceptions. And this statement was made in 2010. You can have the "New Style" while I'll stick with the "OLD PRO STYLE"
Quote from DoLLe
Another gotcha statement.
I have been through this argument Billions of times so im going to keep it brief. There is no skill in picking random. Again, "Evolved" I say. I say "Evolved" because this argument has been put to rest awhile back, yet you are bringing it up like its new. It was determined random is ,so aptly named, for randoms. Is this coincidence that you are bringing this up? I hope so.
I have been through this argument Billions of times so im going to keep it brief. There is no skill in picking random. Again, "Evolved" I say. I say "Evolved" because this argument has been put to rest awhile back, yet you are bringing it up like its new. It was determined random is ,so aptly named, for randoms. Is this coincidence that you are bringing this up? I hope so.
Quote from DoLLe
This is why you are a random and your skills are questionable. Again, i'm trying to be as civil as I can when I say this so don't mod me or flame me ok?:
Quote from DoLLe
-->EVERYONE in TS who i have encountered who advocates random has been more-or-less bad to absolute trash<--
"improvised teamwork" a.k.a Picking random a.k.a lowering the skill ceiling. Look up a post Fashioned has written a VERY LONG WHILE back it should still be on here. It was very good, in summary he says randoms/pubs love to choose randomly simply because with the luck factor involved it throws any sort semblance of skill out the window. You know why 99% of pubs hated me, because I pick to win. "Luck" is pretty much the direct opposite of "Skill".
"improvised teamwork" a.k.a Picking random a.k.a lowering the skill ceiling. Look up a post Fashioned has written a VERY LONG WHILE back it should still be on here. It was very good, in summary he says randoms/pubs love to choose randomly simply because with the luck factor involved it throws any sort semblance of skill out the window. You know why 99% of pubs hated me, because I pick to win. "Luck" is pretty much the direct opposite of "Skill".
Quote from DoLLe
I will always pick to win, I know I'm not good with every hero nor do I pretend to be, but Im really good with 3-4 Heroes which can cover my other teamates imbalances in their hero picks. If you want to random to lose go for it, however every person that said I'm trash because "I pick" I proceed to faceroll them, then I either get dropped, raged, or they bring their friends and then I faceroll them too. Ironically this the same crowd who usually rush SpecOps and Mutant when given the chance to pick. Also the same crowd who says they are both overpowered.
If you random and you get something like Assault, Archer, SpecOps >VS< LM, Medic, War. Who do you think is going to win? Is there any skill involved. No, because you got bad picks vs good picks, made by the computer. Skill is picking a solid team, solid heroes, and random is for pubs who can't think and want a chance at a free win.
If you random and you get something like Assault, Archer, SpecOps >VS< LM, Medic, War. Who do you think is going to win? Is there any skill involved. No, because you got bad picks vs good picks, made by the computer. Skill is picking a solid team, solid heroes, and random is for pubs who can't think and want a chance at a free win.
Quote from DoLLe
I don't care what you say, not everyone is good at every hero. Only one person I've encountered who can play nearly every hero decently sans DM was Iceman16, he also didnt like medic so he never chose it. When I play and the pubs cry "OMG DOLLE PICKED LULZ NOOB" and I'm alive at rines/lots/hydras supermanning the whole enemy team, while the noob who randomed DM is dead at first night still raging at me for not going in 1v3 mid. You'll see why random is trash.
Quote from DoLLe
Ah now I see why you actually want this system implemented, because you don't like to pick and when you are hard countered you dont like it. You want to reward no-skill random play. So you want this handicap system.
The +10 minerals and a decent shot at a free win due to F'd up hero choices made by the comp wasnt alluring enough?
You want this terrible system of yours because you play random. When you are countered you are countered. Pick smart and you wont be hard countered so badly and you will close this gap you speak of. Balancing because you are so hard countered when randoming heroes in pubstar games is not the way to fixing or adding to a game. You chose randomly deal with the consequences, you already get +10 minerals and a shot at a free win. Again is this not enough?
The +10 minerals and a decent shot at a free win due to F'd up hero choices made by the comp wasnt alluring enough?
You want this terrible system of yours because you play random. When you are countered you are countered. Pick smart and you wont be hard countered so badly and you will close this gap you speak of. Balancing because you are so hard countered when randoming heroes in pubstar games is not the way to fixing or adding to a game. You chose randomly deal with the consequences, you already get +10 minerals and a shot at a free win. Again is this not enough?
Quote from DoLLe
In conclusion, Im going to put this bluntly: You should not touch the next generation of temple siege. Period. This statement you have so kindly provided us, right here just proves you are unsuited to do so.
Quote from DoLLe
"Evolved" indeed. Eh Flashbeer? I didnt keep it brief but i'm tired of hearing this same nonsense being brought up again. So heres the checklist:
-Have you said pubstar statements?: Yes
-Have you advocated for random?: Yes
-Have you ever been in a tournament or won one?: No
-Is your name well known in the TS circuit?: No
-Bad ideas stemming from lack of gameplay fundamentals and understanding?: Yes
-Mainly play random in pubs: Yes, said so yourself.
-Said you look down upon picking as lacking skill: Big Fat Yes.
-Questioned the validity of tournament strategies?: err borderline
-Have you said pubstar statements?: Yes
-Have you advocated for random?: Yes
-Have you ever been in a tournament or won one?: No
-Is your name well known in the TS circuit?: No
-Bad ideas stemming from lack of gameplay fundamentals and understanding?: Yes
-Mainly play random in pubs: Yes, said so yourself.
-Said you look down upon picking as lacking skill: Big Fat Yes.
-Questioned the validity of tournament strategies?: err borderline
2) Somewhat. Closer to, I just tend to not like countering.
3) That should not effect credibility, as that falls under a logical fallacy (see argumentum ad hominem)
4) Somewhat, maybe you just haven't heard of me; nonetheless, a logical fallacy (see straw man)
5) Good ideas can still come from stupid people, not saying I am stupid (genetic fallacy)
6) If you consider the regulars of channel op SEN pubs, then yes.
7) I look down on it, if they are countering because they feel the need to counter to have to win, but I don't really mind if people counter.
8) It subjective without any real data.
Quote from DoLLe
(Correct me on any if I'm wrong and I'll apologize and retract the statements as I am a fair man)
EDIT: I quite care who Saiyan(X_rated), ][cy is, who map-hacks, I don't make a concerted effort to keep track. I don't call anyone pro, not you, not the tourney winners, nor myself— I just play the game. As long as people aren't a complete douche, I'm fine with it.
Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Mar 5 2011, 9:23 am by FlashBeer.
None.
Nearly 90% of what you responded was irrelvant. Lets get to the meat and potatoes.
How would know "for comparison to how well people can play TS today" when you only play in random, with low-skilled, in a small circle of people a.k.a Sen. No you don't need to compare anyhting. Stop playing pubs, get some people who are serious about winning, and employ the strategies and see for yourself. Stop complicating everything.
I say you are pub because thats what you are. No tourney experience, No pro experience, Pub statements, casual gamer and not serious about winning, admitted you play with low-skilled, admitted you played random, bad ideas stemming from playing random 24/7, admitting you somewhat advocate random, admitted you play within a small circle of low-skilled people, dont mind hackers. Sounds pubstar to me.
Nobody said it was there to cater to pubs. It just has the tendency to attract pubstars 24/7.
Great you don't want to win. Great you want to play with a low skill friend. Great you don't play to win, you play to go against impossible teams. Great you want to play against map hackers who are generally low-skilled as well. These are all pubstar mentalities see a trend? However this is all irrelvant, random is still no skill. Period.
1) You have definitely said some pubstar statements. This is valid.
2) Somewhat is still a degree of agreeing. This is valid therefore still pubstar.
3,4, & 5) Out of context and individually yes. In context, its valid. You are not well know for your insight, skill, metagame knowledge, or tourney experience. In conjunction with the fact that you have made pubstar statements, and somewhat advocating for random which is generally seen as pubstar. These factors all hold weight and point to this singular conclusion: You are a random meaning nobody knows you for anything regarding TS gameplay, with no pro experience, who admits he plays with low-skill people regularly, who has come up with a bad idea based on the pubstar aspect of random, that nobody has backed and has in fact said wont be implemented. People have also back up my assessment of random as well. You also admit that you random 24/7 and look down on people maximizing their chances of winning. A lot of people have scoffed at your remarks. Considering all this, Are these still an illogical fallacies?
6) Yes SEN has the aura of being pubstar. Ask around. I have replays and proof if you want. Here is one peice of proof courtesy of rockz:
7) You look down on people playing smart and maximize their chances of winning, and punishing sloppy and stupid play. You even admitted you play casually and with a bad player regularly and you don't maximize your chances of winning. You find enjoyment in match-ups such as DM, Medic, Volt vs Assault, Summoner, Archer. Why should anyone take you serious? If you want to know why they shouldn't read read 3,4,5.
8) You know nothing of the TS tourney metagame. Don't speak on strategies you don't employ or know nothing about. The data you need is at your fingertips, stop playing with bads, get a team, and try them for yourself. Oh nevermind, you are a casual who randoms 24/7 with low-skilled. Point taken.
Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Mar 5 2011, 11:00 am by DoLLe.
Quote from FlashBeer
I was questioning the validity of using info from tourneys. Not saying that old tourneys are full of BS- it's just my hypothesis that they are too outdated for comparison to how well people can play TS today. Although I may be wrong about it, I would require extensive testing of a modern day tourney, and comparing the results to all previous tourneys and observe a trend of game/skill "evolution", to persuade me otherwise.
How would know "for comparison to how well people can play TS today" when you only play in random, with low-skilled, in a small circle of people a.k.a Sen. No you don't need to compare anyhting. Stop playing pubs, get some people who are serious about winning, and employ the strategies and see for yourself. Stop complicating everything.
Quote from FlashBeer
I'm just a casual gamer, I play for fun over winning. While fun is associated with winning, it is not the same thing. I don't care if I'm countered either, I find it makes things more interesting. This is why I do not pick to counter. Skill is a separate issue, which I'm not judging you nor anyone else on this forum about. While I don't believe I am flaming you, or at least hope I'm not, you seem to come off as giving me a lot of crap that I lack skill and am a pub, ad nausem.
I say you are pub because thats what you are. No tourney experience, No pro experience, Pub statements, casual gamer and not serious about winning, admitted you play with low-skilled, admitted you played random, bad ideas stemming from playing random 24/7, admitting you somewhat advocate random, admitted you play within a small circle of low-skilled people, dont mind hackers. Sounds pubstar to me.
Quote from FlashBeer
If randoming was simply to cater to pubs for winning with luck, then it wouldn't have been installed- since TS didn't originally come with that option (or it would have at least been removed). I don't whine and/or rage if I am countered. If I wanted to win that badly, I would form teams with the best players I could find, always counter (probably with the same select characters every time) and just smash everyone I can. Instead I like to play with a friend who proclaims himself as not so skillful, but he listens and is great in teamwork. I don't mind if I have a team of awkward characters, it keeps things from getting stale. While the objective is to win, the conflict and effort is funner. I don't even mind if I'm playing against known map-hackers, so long as they don't drop anyone.
Nobody said it was there to cater to pubs. It just has the tendency to attract pubstars 24/7.
Great you don't want to win. Great you want to play with a low skill friend. Great you don't play to win, you play to go against impossible teams. Great you want to play against map hackers who are generally low-skilled as well. These are all pubstar mentalities see a trend? However this is all irrelvant, random is still no skill. Period.
Quote from FlashBeer
1) Not looking at the complete picture, it may look that way.
2) Somewhat. Closer to, I just tend to not like countering.
3) That should not effect credibility, as that falls under a logical fallacy (see argumentum ad hominem)
4) Somewhat, maybe you just haven't heard of me; nonetheless, a logical fallacy (see straw man)
5) Good ideas can still come from stupid people, not saying I am stupid (genetic fallacy)
6) If you consider the regulars of channel op SEN pubs, then yes.
7) I look down on it, if they are countering because they feel the need to counter to have to win, but I don't really mind if people counter.
8) It subjective without any real data.
2) Somewhat. Closer to, I just tend to not like countering.
3) That should not effect credibility, as that falls under a logical fallacy (see argumentum ad hominem)
4) Somewhat, maybe you just haven't heard of me; nonetheless, a logical fallacy (see straw man)
5) Good ideas can still come from stupid people, not saying I am stupid (genetic fallacy)
6) If you consider the regulars of channel op SEN pubs, then yes.
7) I look down on it, if they are countering because they feel the need to counter to have to win, but I don't really mind if people counter.
8) It subjective without any real data.
1) You have definitely said some pubstar statements. This is valid.
2) Somewhat is still a degree of agreeing. This is valid therefore still pubstar.
3,4, & 5) Out of context and individually yes. In context, its valid. You are not well know for your insight, skill, metagame knowledge, or tourney experience. In conjunction with the fact that you have made pubstar statements, and somewhat advocating for random which is generally seen as pubstar. These factors all hold weight and point to this singular conclusion: You are a random meaning nobody knows you for anything regarding TS gameplay, with no pro experience, who admits he plays with low-skill people regularly, who has come up with a bad idea based on the pubstar aspect of random, that nobody has backed and has in fact said wont be implemented. People have also back up my assessment of random as well. You also admit that you random 24/7 and look down on people maximizing their chances of winning. A lot of people have scoffed at your remarks. Considering all this, Are these still an illogical fallacies?
6) Yes SEN has the aura of being pubstar. Ask around. I have replays and proof if you want. Here is one peice of proof courtesy of rockz:
Quote from rockz
rockzI have a hatred for mutant. He's picked in every game. He's not easily countered.
Assault: probably the only counter, even then it's not much of a counter, as you still need multitasking skills to play well
Medic: stalemate early game. Mutant after l3/4
Assasin: is owned
Warrior: Instant death if he l2s. In general, going melee with mutant is asking for death, and warrior is only melee.
Volt: another decent counter, I suppose. Hard to hit with l1 though.
LM: stalemate early game. Mutant after l3/4. Mutant very early game.
Archer: About even
Summoner: can't train well
DM: easy to dodge curses, hard to hit with a mael.
Mech: big l2 target when not in vult. Can usually run away easily, so pretty much a stalemate.
Special ops: About even
Of the counters, volt is sickeningly weak vs archer and mech, and many other units. Nothing can survive a perfectly placed l2, and often times you only have to take 1-2 hits when setting it up, so you can have 200 life and kill something with ease if they don't have many hp ups. I rather think a nerf wouldn't be hard (take away some of the l2/l3 units). However, my skill with dealing with mutant is irrelevant. Point is he's always picked. How about playing someone else for a change? Banning pick is an easy way to balance the game, regardless, and tell which characters need balancing.
Assault: probably the only counter, even then it's not much of a counter, as you still need multitasking skills to play well
Medic: stalemate early game. Mutant after l3/4
Assasin: is owned
Warrior: Instant death if he l2s. In general, going melee with mutant is asking for death, and warrior is only melee.
Volt: another decent counter, I suppose. Hard to hit with l1 though.
LM: stalemate early game. Mutant after l3/4. Mutant very early game.
Archer: About even
Summoner: can't train well
DM: easy to dodge curses, hard to hit with a mael.
Mech: big l2 target when not in vult. Can usually run away easily, so pretty much a stalemate.
Special ops: About even
Of the counters, volt is sickeningly weak vs archer and mech, and many other units. Nothing can survive a perfectly placed l2, and often times you only have to take 1-2 hits when setting it up, so you can have 200 life and kill something with ease if they don't have many hp ups. I rather think a nerf wouldn't be hard (take away some of the l2/l3 units). However, my skill with dealing with mutant is irrelevant. Point is he's always picked. How about playing someone else for a change? Banning pick is an easy way to balance the game, regardless, and tell which characters need balancing.
7) You look down on people playing smart and maximize their chances of winning, and punishing sloppy and stupid play. You even admitted you play casually and with a bad player regularly and you don't maximize your chances of winning. You find enjoyment in match-ups such as DM, Medic, Volt vs Assault, Summoner, Archer. Why should anyone take you serious? If you want to know why they shouldn't read read 3,4,5.
8) You know nothing of the TS tourney metagame. Don't speak on strategies you don't employ or know nothing about. The data you need is at your fingertips, stop playing with bads, get a team, and try them for yourself. Oh nevermind, you are a casual who randoms 24/7 with low-skilled. Point taken.
Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Mar 5 2011, 11:00 am by DoLLe.
None.
"Nearly 90% of what you responded was irrelvant. Lets get to the meat and potatoes."
I don't think you are relaying the context back to the original context, most of what I said was to clarify statements.
"How would know "for comparison to how well people can play TS today" when you only play in random, with low-skilled, in a small circle of people a.k.a Sen. No you don't need to compare anyhting. Stop playing pubs, get some people who are serious about winning, and employ the strategies and see for yourself. Stop complicating everything."
I didn't say this because I was grabbing context from tourney plays, you were grabbing context from tourney plays. If you need examples, wally, a tourney champion, plays on SEN, he randoms. Honestly, he isn't much different than most else there. You still have some connotation that I suck without any proof. Who's complicating? I stated it was my hypothesis.
"I say you are pub because thats what you are. No tourney experience, No pro experience, Pub statements, casual gamer and not serious about winning, admitted you play with low-skilled, admitted you played random, bad ideas stemming from playing random 24/7, admitting you somewhat advocate random, admitted you play within a small circle of low-skilled people, dont mind hackers. Sounds pubstar to me."
So basically, you HAVE to have competed in any official TS tournament to not be pub. Well good thing tourneys are still hosted so that noone is pub anymore [/sarcasm]. It's too bad that the tourneys that I wanted to attend were hosted at a time I could not make it to. Who decides who's pro and who's not, is there some sort of official TS certified documentation or TS degree going around? "Pros" can have off-games, and "pubs" can have good games. You categorize me as pub (or my statements as pub) just because I random and have my reasons to do so, and hold me to only your standards? How do you judge who is low-skilled when you haven't played them, or know how they play, other than how they set up their game? Why does it matter if I don't mind playing with hackers? It gives the other player an advantage— how does that make me any worse and what does this have to do with any credibility? Yes, I random, you've already stated that randoming doesn't equal pub. I never said I'm not serious about winning, you're just contorting what I'm saying. I stated that I would rather have fun than win— I still try my best to win the game, once everyone has their heroes.
"Great you don't want to win. Great you want to play with a low skill friend. Great you don't play to win, you play to go against impossible teams. Great you want to play against map hackers who are generally low-skilled as well. These are all pubstar mentalities see a trend? However this is all irrelvant, random is still no skill. Period."
Once again, more twisting of what I say. "I play for fun over winning. While fun is associated with winning, it is not the same thing." "While the objective is to win, the conflict and effort is funner." Never stated I just lay down and do nothing. Who said the teams were impossible, I've beaten severe counters (Insert your generic "oh great, you can beat pubs" statement here, and do another logical fallacy).
"but someone could blindly say from the other side that you lack the skill to random, and play as the other 8-9 characters." Period. See a trend?
It's the concept of another person's view. It's just as you a blind to my side of TS, you don't understand the mentality of why I random.
1) You have definitely said some pubstar statements.
Enlighten me.
2) Somewhat is still a degree of agreeing. This is valid therefore still pubstar.
I know I agree, but I'm fine with just non-counter picking as well. (Your opinion on randoming) "Nobody said it was there to cater to pubs."
3,4, & 5) Out of context and individually yes. In context, its valid. You are not well know for your insight, skill, metagame knowledge, or tourney experience. In conjunction with the fact that you have made pubstar statements, and somewhat advocating for random which is generally seen as pubstar. These factors all hold weight and point to this singular conclusion: You are a random meaning nobody knows you for anything regarding TS gameplay, with no pro experience, who admits he plays with low-skill people regularly, who has come up with a bad idea based on the pubstar aspect of random, that nobody has backed and has in fact said wont be implemented. People have also back up my assessment of random as well. You also admit that you random 24/7 and look down on people maximizing their chances of winning. A lot of people have scoffed at your remarks. Considering all this, Are these still an illogical fallacies?
Yes:
-Have you ever been in a tournament or won one?: No
The outcome of me participating in a competition determining whether I have adequate skill/knowledge to not be considered a pub. You would agree that in context, it is still exactly as you meant it alone, correct?
Still. "That should not effect credibility, as that falls under a logical fallacy (see argumentum ad hominem)" because you are assuming that only tournament players can play well. As in, noone else could play like a pro without having been in a tournament.
-Is your name well known in the TS circuit?: No
I have considered context here as well. You imply that if my name is not well known, I must be a nobody; and if I'm a nobody, I must be a pub.
"Somewhat, maybe you just haven't heard of me; nonetheless, a logical fallacy (see straw man)"
This is a logical fallacy because people not knowing my name, have nothing to do with how well I play. Would this mean that Michael Phelps was a terrible swimmer before he was famous?
-Bad ideas stemming from lack of gameplay fundamentals and understanding?: Yes
You pretty much have to keep this statement in context to understand it. You are relating back to my earlier ideas... etc.
"Good ideas can still come from stupid people, not saying I am stupid (genetic fallacy)" So if a person who knows nothing about economics thinks that there needs to be more jobs, does that mean his idea is bad?
"who admits he plays with low-skill people regularly"
More bending of what I said, you are implying that just because my friend states that he is lacking in skill, you think that everyone else I play with is low-skilled.
"bad idea... ....that nobody has backed and has in fact said wont be implemented."
Ironic how this statement suits you well.
You know, it's not as if many other people within the team had their own ideas, which also won't be implemented.
"6) Yes SEN has the aura of being pubstar. Ask around. I have replays and proof if you want. Here is one peice of proof courtesy of rockz:"
It's also where tourneys are organized and held. Since the majority of TSers are on SEN, it's only natural that you find pubs, regulars, ex-tourneys, etc.
"7) You look down on people playing smart and maximize their chances of winning, and punishing sloppy and stupid play. You even admitted you play casually and with a bad player regularly and you don't maximize your chances of winning. You find enjoyment in match-ups such as DM, Medic, Volt vs Assault, Summoner, Archer. Why should anyone take you serious? If you want to know why they shouldn't read read 3,4,5."
Have you ever played a game where individuals can set their own handicap level? It gives them an advantage, and is in the game. Would you consider them smarter for using the handicap, or less skilled for using the handicap? This is the mindset I have on countering in TS. I used to counter and choose units all the time- but does that mean I played better than I did before? No, I just now play differently. Why can't you see that? I don't find it as fun to give myself an advantage before any gameplay has started— this doesn't mean that I'm not trying. I didn't say I'm a masochist, you're altering what I'm saying to the very extreme- I just prefer a good challenge.
"8) You know nothing of the TS tourney metagame. Don't speak on strategies you don't employ or know nothing about. The data you need is at your fingertips, stop playing with bads, get a team, and try them for yourself. Oh nevermind, you are a casual who randoms 24/7 with low-skilled. Point taken."
Whoever said I was advocating tourney play? Don't take this and say I'm against it either. When did I ever speak of stratgeies I didn't know about?
I have played on stacked teams, against stacked teams, I've countered, picked normally, randomed, play every legitimate version of TS, 2v2's, 2v3's, 3v2's, 3v3's, played for years on TS now, I would have participated in the tourneys, but couldn't- so you're going to shoot down all my cred for that. Perhaps you that should trying something different, try randoming. Have you ever tried randoming? How often do you TS? Who do you TS with? Is there some secret club of tourney players playing all the time, or do you only play during tournaments? I recall you saying that you team up, counter, and steam-roll randoming pubs; does that give you more credibility than randoming, not-teaming, and beating pubs?
I think you are purposely avoiding seeing things from my perspective, because you don't want to be wrong— or because your view of me so already so engrained you disregard what I say, and contort it to what you want to hear- often leaving out details, or using associative fallacies. Your proclaims are full of the slippery slope, and ad hominem fallacies, combined with your one-sided view of TS gameplay. You are judging me to your standards, and really do not try to see from my perspective, even if you think you do. Why would I play and not want to win? Why would I purposely hope to be completely countered and crushed? Or you fill in what I say with "you're a pub, you hang out with pubs, everything you do is pub", and other mostly generalized statements. You are distorting my statements to what you want to hear from me, so that I have no/pub logic.
I don't think you are relaying the context back to the original context, most of what I said was to clarify statements.
"How would know "for comparison to how well people can play TS today" when you only play in random, with low-skilled, in a small circle of people a.k.a Sen. No you don't need to compare anyhting. Stop playing pubs, get some people who are serious about winning, and employ the strategies and see for yourself. Stop complicating everything."
I didn't say this because I was grabbing context from tourney plays, you were grabbing context from tourney plays. If you need examples, wally, a tourney champion, plays on SEN, he randoms. Honestly, he isn't much different than most else there. You still have some connotation that I suck without any proof. Who's complicating? I stated it was my hypothesis.
"I say you are pub because thats what you are. No tourney experience, No pro experience, Pub statements, casual gamer and not serious about winning, admitted you play with low-skilled, admitted you played random, bad ideas stemming from playing random 24/7, admitting you somewhat advocate random, admitted you play within a small circle of low-skilled people, dont mind hackers. Sounds pubstar to me."
So basically, you HAVE to have competed in any official TS tournament to not be pub. Well good thing tourneys are still hosted so that noone is pub anymore [/sarcasm]. It's too bad that the tourneys that I wanted to attend were hosted at a time I could not make it to. Who decides who's pro and who's not, is there some sort of official TS certified documentation or TS degree going around? "Pros" can have off-games, and "pubs" can have good games. You categorize me as pub (or my statements as pub) just because I random and have my reasons to do so, and hold me to only your standards? How do you judge who is low-skilled when you haven't played them, or know how they play, other than how they set up their game? Why does it matter if I don't mind playing with hackers? It gives the other player an advantage— how does that make me any worse and what does this have to do with any credibility? Yes, I random, you've already stated that randoming doesn't equal pub. I never said I'm not serious about winning, you're just contorting what I'm saying. I stated that I would rather have fun than win— I still try my best to win the game, once everyone has their heroes.
"Great you don't want to win. Great you want to play with a low skill friend. Great you don't play to win, you play to go against impossible teams. Great you want to play against map hackers who are generally low-skilled as well. These are all pubstar mentalities see a trend? However this is all irrelvant, random is still no skill. Period."
Once again, more twisting of what I say. "I play for fun over winning. While fun is associated with winning, it is not the same thing." "While the objective is to win, the conflict and effort is funner." Never stated I just lay down and do nothing. Who said the teams were impossible, I've beaten severe counters (Insert your generic "oh great, you can beat pubs" statement here, and do another logical fallacy).
"but someone could blindly say from the other side that you lack the skill to random, and play as the other 8-9 characters." Period. See a trend?
It's the concept of another person's view. It's just as you a blind to my side of TS, you don't understand the mentality of why I random.
1) You have definitely said some pubstar statements.
Enlighten me.
2) Somewhat is still a degree of agreeing. This is valid therefore still pubstar.
I know I agree, but I'm fine with just non-counter picking as well. (Your opinion on randoming) "Nobody said it was there to cater to pubs."
3,4, & 5) Out of context and individually yes. In context, its valid. You are not well know for your insight, skill, metagame knowledge, or tourney experience. In conjunction with the fact that you have made pubstar statements, and somewhat advocating for random which is generally seen as pubstar. These factors all hold weight and point to this singular conclusion: You are a random meaning nobody knows you for anything regarding TS gameplay, with no pro experience, who admits he plays with low-skill people regularly, who has come up with a bad idea based on the pubstar aspect of random, that nobody has backed and has in fact said wont be implemented. People have also back up my assessment of random as well. You also admit that you random 24/7 and look down on people maximizing their chances of winning. A lot of people have scoffed at your remarks. Considering all this, Are these still an illogical fallacies?
Yes:
-Have you ever been in a tournament or won one?: No
The outcome of me participating in a competition determining whether I have adequate skill/knowledge to not be considered a pub. You would agree that in context, it is still exactly as you meant it alone, correct?
Still. "That should not effect credibility, as that falls under a logical fallacy (see argumentum ad hominem)" because you are assuming that only tournament players can play well. As in, noone else could play like a pro without having been in a tournament.
-Is your name well known in the TS circuit?: No
I have considered context here as well. You imply that if my name is not well known, I must be a nobody; and if I'm a nobody, I must be a pub.
"Somewhat, maybe you just haven't heard of me; nonetheless, a logical fallacy (see straw man)"
This is a logical fallacy because people not knowing my name, have nothing to do with how well I play. Would this mean that Michael Phelps was a terrible swimmer before he was famous?
-Bad ideas stemming from lack of gameplay fundamentals and understanding?: Yes
You pretty much have to keep this statement in context to understand it. You are relating back to my earlier ideas... etc.
"Good ideas can still come from stupid people, not saying I am stupid (genetic fallacy)" So if a person who knows nothing about economics thinks that there needs to be more jobs, does that mean his idea is bad?
"who admits he plays with low-skill people regularly"
More bending of what I said, you are implying that just because my friend states that he is lacking in skill, you think that everyone else I play with is low-skilled.
"bad idea... ....that nobody has backed and has in fact said wont be implemented."
Ironic how this statement suits you well.
You know, it's not as if many other people within the team had their own ideas, which also won't be implemented.
"6) Yes SEN has the aura of being pubstar. Ask around. I have replays and proof if you want. Here is one peice of proof courtesy of rockz:"
It's also where tourneys are organized and held. Since the majority of TSers are on SEN, it's only natural that you find pubs, regulars, ex-tourneys, etc.
"7) You look down on people playing smart and maximize their chances of winning, and punishing sloppy and stupid play. You even admitted you play casually and with a bad player regularly and you don't maximize your chances of winning. You find enjoyment in match-ups such as DM, Medic, Volt vs Assault, Summoner, Archer. Why should anyone take you serious? If you want to know why they shouldn't read read 3,4,5."
Have you ever played a game where individuals can set their own handicap level? It gives them an advantage, and is in the game. Would you consider them smarter for using the handicap, or less skilled for using the handicap? This is the mindset I have on countering in TS. I used to counter and choose units all the time- but does that mean I played better than I did before? No, I just now play differently. Why can't you see that? I don't find it as fun to give myself an advantage before any gameplay has started— this doesn't mean that I'm not trying. I didn't say I'm a masochist, you're altering what I'm saying to the very extreme- I just prefer a good challenge.
"8) You know nothing of the TS tourney metagame. Don't speak on strategies you don't employ or know nothing about. The data you need is at your fingertips, stop playing with bads, get a team, and try them for yourself. Oh nevermind, you are a casual who randoms 24/7 with low-skilled. Point taken."
Whoever said I was advocating tourney play? Don't take this and say I'm against it either. When did I ever speak of stratgeies I didn't know about?
I have played on stacked teams, against stacked teams, I've countered, picked normally, randomed, play every legitimate version of TS, 2v2's, 2v3's, 3v2's, 3v3's, played for years on TS now, I would have participated in the tourneys, but couldn't- so you're going to shoot down all my cred for that. Perhaps you that should trying something different, try randoming. Have you ever tried randoming? How often do you TS? Who do you TS with? Is there some secret club of tourney players playing all the time, or do you only play during tournaments? I recall you saying that you team up, counter, and steam-roll randoming pubs; does that give you more credibility than randoming, not-teaming, and beating pubs?
I think you are purposely avoiding seeing things from my perspective, because you don't want to be wrong— or because your view of me so already so engrained you disregard what I say, and contort it to what you want to hear- often leaving out details, or using associative fallacies. Your proclaims are full of the slippery slope, and ad hominem fallacies, combined with your one-sided view of TS gameplay. You are judging me to your standards, and really do not try to see from my perspective, even if you think you do. Why would I play and not want to win? Why would I purposely hope to be completely countered and crushed? Or you fill in what I say with "you're a pub, you hang out with pubs, everything you do is pub", and other mostly generalized statements. You are distorting my statements to what you want to hear from me, so that I have no/pub logic.
None.
I have no regrets for +10 minerals random. It's a paltry consolation prize to players that forsake the tremendous advantage of counter-picking.
People that hate randoming don't hate it because they think it makes randomers better, they don't. They hate it because they want certain unit combos, and want to decide what their teammates pick. The thing is, if they weren't listening to you when you said "no random!" they won't listen to you if you said "Pick volt!". It's a communication problem, mixed with a players liberty to do whatever they want, and that's not the map makers problem. You'll say "But you're ENCOURAGING it with the 10 minerals!" The 10 minerals aren't to persuade them to random! It's there for them to have a slim chance of winning when they do! If they, or you, interpret that differently - that's not my problem.
While I'm being honest, I'll put it out there that I had been trying to fog picking vision since 3.4. The only reason I didn't was due to a lack of triggering skills; the game broke every time I tried it. By the time I finally figured it out, I had gotten just enough feedback from veteran players about how happy they were I kept counter-picking in "I love you Clans, thank god u dont listen to those scrubs when they say no vision" "Uh, yeah... no problem... totally on purpose..."
Oh yeah, that and the fact that everyone hacks, and I'd only be punishing the handful of honest players.
Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Mar 5 2011, 4:45 pm by ClansAreForGays.
People that hate randoming don't hate it because they think it makes randomers better, they don't. They hate it because they want certain unit combos, and want to decide what their teammates pick. The thing is, if they weren't listening to you when you said "no random!" they won't listen to you if you said "Pick volt!". It's a communication problem, mixed with a players liberty to do whatever they want, and that's not the map makers problem. You'll say "But you're ENCOURAGING it with the 10 minerals!" The 10 minerals aren't to persuade them to random! It's there for them to have a slim chance of winning when they do! If they, or you, interpret that differently - that's not my problem.
While I'm being honest, I'll put it out there that I had been trying to fog picking vision since 3.4. The only reason I didn't was due to a lack of triggering skills; the game broke every time I tried it. By the time I finally figured it out, I had gotten just enough feedback from veteran players about how happy they were I kept counter-picking in "I love you Clans, thank god u dont listen to those scrubs when they say no vision" "Uh, yeah... no problem... totally on purpose..."
Oh yeah, that and the fact that everyone hacks, and I'd only be punishing the handful of honest players.
Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Mar 5 2011, 4:45 pm by ClansAreForGays.
http://waitbutwhy.com/2013/09/why-generation-y-yuppies-are-unhappy.html
"We're being taught to hate downwards"
"We're being taught to hate downwards"
Anyways, I'm beginning the long arduous task of learning the editor, but like SC1, I refuse to touch terrain. So if anyone can make a 1:1 identical terrain map of the new OR old ts terrain, then I'd appreciate it. My goal is to make an identical 1:1 promised and guaranteed remake of Temple Siege 1, with the only exceptions to changes being things like scrapping the gateway system. I figure only once I can be faithful to the original, should I be able to go from there.
And if you still don't have any sort of finished map out by then, I won't hesitate to call my second map (not the ts1 remake) TS2.
And if you still don't have any sort of finished map out by then, I won't hesitate to call my second map (not the ts1 remake) TS2.
http://waitbutwhy.com/2013/09/why-generation-y-yuppies-are-unhappy.html
"We're being taught to hate downwards"
"We're being taught to hate downwards"
Quote from ClansAreForGays
ClansAreForGaysI have no regrets for +10 minerals random. It's a paltry consolation prize to players that forsake the tremendous advantage of counter-picking.
People that hate randoming don't hate it because they think it makes randomers better, they don't. They hate it because they want certain unit combos, and want to decide what their teammates pick. The thing is, if they weren't listening to you when you said "no random!" they won't listen to you if you said "Pick volt!". It's a communication problem, mixed with a players liberty to do whatever they want, and that's not the map makers problem. You'll say "But you're ENCOURAGING it with the 10 minerals!" The 10 minerals aren't to persuade them to random! It's there for them to have a slim chance of winning when they do! If they, or you, interpret that differently - that's not my problem.
People that hate randoming don't hate it because they think it makes randomers better, they don't. They hate it because they want certain unit combos, and want to decide what their teammates pick. The thing is, if they weren't listening to you when you said "no random!" they won't listen to you if you said "Pick volt!". It's a communication problem, mixed with a players liberty to do whatever they want, and that's not the map makers problem. You'll say "But you're ENCOURAGING it with the 10 minerals!" The 10 minerals aren't to persuade them to random! It's there for them to have a slim chance of winning when they do! If they, or you, interpret that differently - that's not my problem.
While I believe that people shouldn't random for the purpose of simply obtaining +10, that wasn't completely why I didn't like it. I don't like it because it is a pre-game advantage. For people that random if they planned on it anyway, don't care about the prize- so there wasn't a need for them to have it and they get an advantage. For people that do random for the +10 minerals, that's what most people complain about this for. While countering still trumps the +10 assist, I group +10 minerals in the same group as they are both pre-game advantages. If you want heroes to have a been chance vs being countered, then the heroes themselves should be tweaked to give them "the slim chance of winning if they do".
None.
Quote from FlashBeer
Blah blah Blah
I already see where this is going. I've already fallen into the trap, again like a fool. Arguing about arguments typical SEN forum nonsense. Go for it, this is my last satement about you. So im going to put this bluntly. First let me paste this:
Quote from Fashioned
Okay time to clear things up.
This is how the brain works for low level skill players. In essense it works the same as Easy Mode in HoN for anyone who understands gaming concepts. Basically All Random increases the chance for bad players to win from introducing a luck factor, this is why 'bads' and 'pubs' love this so much. Essentially, it is lowering the 'skill ceiling' in order to decrease the gap between the worse player and better player. Pubs will not understand this, so I don't bother explaining it. Also atleast 80% of the games are completely one sided and usually rests on the shoulder 'who is more awful' rather then anything else.
If you want me to explain more or give references I will, it applies to just about any game of decent skill value (e.g chess)
One of the reasons why this map doesn't have any solid 'pro' community is because solid team picks, metagame planning and strategic countering does not take any place among the masses. There is literally less than 5 pros of this game, ever. A lot of people have a belief that countering individual heroes is 'noob' but pre-M9 it is actually an advantage to pick all 3 of your heroes first before the other team; the fact that the TIMER is implented is another huge reason for this. Even I have done horrible picks from forced timer pressure. This is a good thing.
"Random is for noobs" is the blunt statement. I warn to ban anyone who tries to random in my games. This is because I'm sick to death of the absolute scrub matches where 90% of the time they are triple countered by one goddam hero. Believe it or not, hero play is only a minor stage in the game. When people say "random is for pros because it shows you can play all heroes" I won't even mention the fact they can't play any of the heroes, let alone all. The basic fact is that atleast 60% of the game is strategic picks and play and the fact you can play all heroes isn't even relevant. For example, you have the most pro rine (lol oxymoron), most pro ling (lol again) and most pro warrior on the same team. This is absolutely rubbish when you are a crappy pubstomp combo and going to lose to the very average Assault who just triple countered your entire team.
This is how the brain works for low level skill players. In essense it works the same as Easy Mode in HoN for anyone who understands gaming concepts. Basically All Random increases the chance for bad players to win from introducing a luck factor, this is why 'bads' and 'pubs' love this so much. Essentially, it is lowering the 'skill ceiling' in order to decrease the gap between the worse player and better player. Pubs will not understand this, so I don't bother explaining it. Also atleast 80% of the games are completely one sided and usually rests on the shoulder 'who is more awful' rather then anything else.
If you want me to explain more or give references I will, it applies to just about any game of decent skill value (e.g chess)
One of the reasons why this map doesn't have any solid 'pro' community is because solid team picks, metagame planning and strategic countering does not take any place among the masses. There is literally less than 5 pros of this game, ever. A lot of people have a belief that countering individual heroes is 'noob' but pre-M9 it is actually an advantage to pick all 3 of your heroes first before the other team; the fact that the TIMER is implented is another huge reason for this. Even I have done horrible picks from forced timer pressure. This is a good thing.
"Random is for noobs" is the blunt statement. I warn to ban anyone who tries to random in my games. This is because I'm sick to death of the absolute scrub matches where 90% of the time they are triple countered by one goddam hero. Believe it or not, hero play is only a minor stage in the game. When people say "random is for pros because it shows you can play all heroes" I won't even mention the fact they can't play any of the heroes, let alone all. The basic fact is that atleast 60% of the game is strategic picks and play and the fact you can play all heroes isn't even relevant. For example, you have the most pro rine (lol oxymoron), most pro ling (lol again) and most pro warrior on the same team. This is absolutely rubbish when you are a crappy pubstomp combo and going to lose to the very average Assault who just triple countered your entire team.
Fashioned posted this a year ago and nearly everyone unamiously agreed, and the irony is there was a debate raging between Myself, Fashioned, Norm, Jack, Closed.ads and many others. However the general consensus was that people agreed to what Fashioned had posted. The fact you are still arguing this garbage shows you are still far behind the vets of the game. To bring back up this nonsense shows you are sorely lacking in TS knowledge my friend. This has already been settled long ago, by people who mattered in regards to TS.
Quote from Jack
JackRCDF]When it comes to randoming, I agree with dolle, although not in such an aggressive manner 
Quote from NinjaOtis
Those who still play suck more than ever because of their "new style", they are complete garbage who have no clue how to play, choose correctly, or work as a team. People actually think Saiyan(X_rated) is the best tser..., yea I LOL'd too.
Also people should never recieve a handicap for randoming; it justs enables bad players to be worse, encourages noobs to never get better/learn, and as DoLLe stated, lowers the skill ceiling
Also people should never recieve a handicap for randoming; it justs enables bad players to be worse, encourages noobs to never get better/learn, and as DoLLe stated, lowers the skill ceiling
- Three people have already agreed with me, as would many others if they were still around. Nobody has backed you in your ignorance to defend random play. Nor has anyone backed your terrible idea. Others may have not have their ideas implemented but YOURS didnt get implemented becaused it was focused on pubstar aspects as everyone has so kindly pointed out already A.K.A: Bad Idea. Argue all you want.
At this point I don't care what you say, I've been through this a million times on SEN forum (Read: Faz- and Friends). "Ad hominem blah blah" "illogical fallacies blah blah". However in the context of TS my experience has never let me down so I'm going to say this:
- In my experience, everyone on sen who has produced the same "illogical fallacy" arguement regarding their garbage ideas, skills, and metagame analysis has been 99.9% trash, and has been face rolled. Want replays ask. This goes especially double for you since, in my experience, anyone who has advocated random has been trash. You also display all the pubstar tendencies in arguments. Maybe to your local gang of SEN buddies you are someone but in the grand scheme of TS, you are a nobody known for nothing except for working on an unpopular map version of TS. On a side note just because people hang in SEN doesnt make them a SENNER. A senner would probably be LINGIE or RINEY or PIGZ_G. Or LIL INFERNO. Not about right or wrong, I'm just going by experience and I already know you are no exception to this.
- The fact that the general consensus agrees and there are valid arguments pointing out that Random pretty much throws any skill out the window has already been put to rest. The fact that nobody randoms in tournaments also supports this. Again you can have fun with your low skilled friend, who admitted he was low skill. In your pub random matches, with low skilled people, infested with no skill hackers.
- The fact that you brought up Wally bolsters the fact my experience/intuition isn't too far off. I have 23 replays of me personally facerolling this guy, pub play and the various teams he brings to get raped. However he has gotten better. Yea, he randoms but hes better than you and will agree with what I say. Wally also knows better than to random vs me and my team. Why? Because he knows we are skilled and he wants to win. I guarantee Wally randoms with you or anyone else for that matter because he doesn't take you serious, skillwise you arent a threat. Wally is like me, he plays to win. Period. Ask him if he would ever, I mean, EVER random with me.
- Pubstar statements that you have provided: Assuming LM has "Good Sim Killer/Killers" a.k.a giving up map control to bank on LM. Pub statement right there. Advocating random, pub statement/stance. Using mutants L2 to harass? This is the tip of the Iceberg. There are various more, but this will suffice.
- You will never have insight on the TS metagame because you admitted you and your pubbies shun skillful picks and play random a majority of the time. There is not a metagame based on random nor will their ever will be in TS or any AoS map ever. Therefore when you speak your TS knowledge on basic gameplay fundamentals are obviously and glaringly flawed.
- Who do I play with? Maxx, Iceman, Dog[Act], StalinG, Wally, LoXs, Otis, fdsa72 Fashioned and various others. On another side note people like Sacrieur,OlimarAndLouie, and closed.ads and foxwolf1 who arent the greatest palyers may fall into the category of Decent/Not Pro-bad/Pub. However they all share one thing in common: they provide insight and intelligence to the metagame and make posts based on the sound fundamentals of TS gameplay a majority of the time. You do none of these and espouse garbage, and imply you are more than a pub. Again you are a nobody except to your local SEN buddies who you play with, and your low skilled friend. A better question is who do you play with?
- Yes people who random are generally low-skilled garbage, and you admit you player with no-skill hackers and a low skill player. So I will insert the generic "you are garbage statement here". With pleasure I might add. When playing with garbage you will play like garbage.
- No tourney experience. Always random a.k.a lowered skill ceiling. Advocate random. Admits he plays with hackers. Admit you regularly play with a guy who says he is low skill. Terrible map idea based on experience from playing random. Casual attitude toward winning. Admitted to being a casaul gamer (aka pretty much pub). Looks down on maximizing chances of winning a.k.a countering a.k.a smart hero picks a.k.a skill. Admitted to playing with people who encourage random play stifling a serious comepetitive environment. Experience tells me this: Yes you are pubstar, Yes I know you are bad. No amount of illogical fallacies or semantics that you argue will change this. I have saved replays of me playing, hitting the 1.2k mark, and probably have played countless moreso. I have played in tourneys and played amongst pros who have come and gone. Again experience tells me you are pubby.
- Nobody will come out and say it, as SEN forums usually have hands-off policy toward calling out garbage. People on the board have agree'd with me in PMs and other various means of communication. So I will say it for them and me as well: You reek of pubstar.
Flashbeer argue as much as you like, you are a non-factor and your category is such: The average SEN forum pub who thinks illogical fallacies invalidates the fact you ACTUALLY are a random/pubstar/nobody/low-skill. Many have come before you, people such as yourself have already come a dime a dozen, and i guarantee you that you are already facerolled like all the others.
In conclusion: No argument will save you from the aura of pubbiness you exude continually through your statements.
Good day to you.
Post has been edited 5 time(s), last time on Mar 6 2011, 1:13 am by DoLLe.
None.
@FlashBeer n DoLLe
Too many arguments. Can't make out anything. If either one of you can summarize in a short post what you were arguing or if any of it was relevant, then it'd be greatly appreciated <3
@CAFG
Truthfully, this is not how I want it to be.
While it is true that you (and Moose) have spent a lot of time working on TS, up to a point where you guys can be considered its Foster Parents, I still find it hard to see how you can make some of you statements.
But since I've somewhat relinquished my "control" over TS, it is no longer up to me to decide. More importantly, it is up to the people who will commit to it.
But just remember this. When someone created something with as much passion as I did, it is very hard for one to give up on what one worked on. This applies to all of us as a whole, and therefore, fighting for it hurts everyone.
Too many arguments. Can't make out anything. If either one of you can summarize in a short post what you were arguing or if any of it was relevant, then it'd be greatly appreciated <3
@CAFG
Truthfully, this is not how I want it to be.
While it is true that you (and Moose) have spent a lot of time working on TS, up to a point where you guys can be considered its Foster Parents, I still find it hard to see how you can make some of you statements.
But since I've somewhat relinquished my "control" over TS, it is no longer up to me to decide. More importantly, it is up to the people who will commit to it.
But just remember this. When someone created something with as much passion as I did, it is very hard for one to give up on what one worked on. This applies to all of us as a whole, and therefore, fighting for it hurts everyone.
None.
[09:38 pm]
NudeRaider -- UltravioletUltraviolet shouted: NudeRaider sing it brother
trust me, you don't wanna hear that. I defer that to the pros.
[2024-4-26. : 6:51 pm]
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sounds like moisture control is often a pressing concern in your city[2024-4-26. : 6:50 pm]
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Vrael -- Perhaps even here I on the StarEdit Network I could look for some Introductions.
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