Lets face it, we love chickens. Meat that is. Nobody really cares about where they come from, or if we do, it doesn't occupy our minds enough to do anything to affect the way things are produced. Although the majority of chicken farms is still the old setting of a fenced in dirt area with chickens, over 90% of America's chicken products come from factory farms. These are exactly as they sound, being an entanglement of wire boxes, in which chickens sit and wait to be slaughtered, or are forced to lay eggs.
On the plus side, there is way more food produced, chickens lay on average 114 more eggs per year in this new setup than in classical methods. Also, the production of chicken meat has increased three fold in the last 30 years.

What is your opinion on this way of farming? Are the benefits worth the costs? Are there other benefits or costs? For the chickens?

(I use chickens for this example because their captivity is the most extreme, and has changed much more dramatically than red meat has in the last half century.)

From a religious point of view (it's SD, it's required ) we are commanded to take care of the world. Factory farming in conditions like that isn't really what is commanded, so no, we shouldn't factory farm.

From a New Zealander point of view, it's a bad idea. Factory farms for cows and chickens have recently started in NZ if I recall correctly, and most people I know flat out refuse to buy meat from those companies. Again, it's a bad idea.

From a productive point of view, it's a GREAT idea. If we were robots, no one would object. But we aren't robots, we're human, and most humans can see that it's, well, inhumane to keep animals in conditions like that. That doesn't mean we need to treat animals on the same level as humans, however.

SD does not require religious points of view it is just sorta somewhat acceptable (but not really) because it is valued opinion.
I do not really love chicken. I find duck more delicious.
I am against the factory farming of chickens because this close quarters farming increases the chance of spreading a diseases.

For all of you against.

Assume that factory farming was stopped, only the SAME AMOUNT of land can be used to farm chickens.

This would cause your chicken meat cost to rise SUBSTANSTIALLY, to where it would be a luxury. Also, cost of EGGS would go up, which would effect everything that requires them, including cookies, mayonnaise, cakes....

It may be inhumane, but its what we've got to do. I could live with it either way, I for myself am of the mindset that 1. Inhumane is defined by the person speaking, and i tend to find little against animals inhumane unless it is unnecessary cruelty. This i find necessary.

Food in the US is dirt-cheap. New Zealand and other countries without factory farming have got along fine without it for years, and the US could stop and be OK just as well. You say that it's 'necessary', but it's only necessary to keep chicken and eggs cheap. Chicken and eggs are NOT luxury items in NZ, and they wouldn't become so in the USA. All that would happen is that your KFC would be a little more expensive.

yeah...first I like duck better than chicken. (does anyone care that this probably goes beyond chickens?)
The eggs and chicken meat are not a necessity so I do no care about the cost of chickens rising. (you can even argue that it is not healthy) You can become a vegetarian. I eat more plant based food than meat based anyways.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jan 3 2010, 10:48 pm by MasterJohnny.

Radical change as it may be, shouldn't we consider what is morally good? If we always focus on profit, we will achieve profit. Bravo, pat yourself on the back, we are factory producing living creatures. Anyone can put on a mask and coldly argue the logic behind what is necessary for Profit and Tastiness. That is the easy way out.


It is almost disgusting to see the Line connecting Point A to Point B. I have no problem with killing an animal. In fact, I often go hunting. What I have a problem with is the repeated [forced factory production, and mass execution] of life all to satisfy the taste buds of millions of Americans. I buy my meats from Local Farmers who I trust.

And that is a huge problem for a lot of people.
And factory farming still keeps your local farmer's meat prices down, because if they cost a lot more- then they lose competitiveness. So it's been doing you a favor.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jan 19 2010, 4:38 am by CecilSunkure. Reason: Names in quotes.

It's an interesting dilemma with a number of relevant factors. The first one, which is essentially what has allowed this to come about, is the fact that animals like chickens and cows and such aren't sentient, or at least people have never witnessed them being sentient. There exists a large mental distinction between humans and all other animals, and by separating ourselves from them by this distinction we find it easier to kill them, in the same way propaganda in WWI and WWII tried to make germany and japan into "the enemy" instead of another country full of people, and depicted them as grotesque and inhuman. There are a number of animals rights groups who have various arguments for the intelligence of animals, or that because they are a part of the same world as us they should recieve the same rights as us, but I see a number of problems with this approach. First off, giving a pension and retirement benefits to a kangaroo seems rather ludicrous, seeing as they're incapable of holding a job. Secondly, people do need to eat. If we are to give certain rights to animals, what's to prevent us from giving them to plants as well? The line has to be drawn somewhere in order for mankind to eat. Thirdly, mankind has always eaten meat, so until technology finds some other extraordinary method of sustaining human life, there exists even a "natural" argument for eating animals. So the real question, to me at least, isn't whether factory farming is right, but is there anything we can do to make it more humane than it currently is?

I think the answer is yes, but it's unlikely anything will be done. The first reason for this, is that no one really cares. We're hungry, we want food, kill the animals and give us our KFC. The second reason, is that no one cares about instituting a higher standard of life for these animals. While it would obviously be the more moral avenue, it would require effort and sacrifice on the part of the average american, as has already been noted in the topic it would drive prices up. A third reason might be that the moral conflict involved isn't that large. The fact remains that we have to eat something in order to survive, and for us to eat it, it has to die first. For them to survive, something else has to die for them to eat. If something has to die anyway, is it really that immoral to kill them? Or should we allow them to eat us?

If anything, the factory farms drive traditional farmers' prices UP because mass-produced goods are cheaper than "old-fashioned" ones.

As Vrael said, little is likely to be done in the near future. Americans are stuck in this mindset of cheap food and an unwillingness to change if it requires effort on their part.

From another perspective, how can we know if animals even have sentience? Most animals have less-developed brains than humans.

You're not getting the point here. It keeps it down because local farmers have to stay 'competitive'. It's the key word, competitiveness.
If there is no factory farming, chicken prices will immediately skyrocket in comparison to when they were factory farming (ratio, demand stays the same, production goes down, price goes up)- that means local farmers can raise their price to that 'skyrocketted price'.
That's why it keeps it down. Of course local farmers chickens are currently more expensive in relation to the factory farmed products, but it still keeps it down. Yeah, please really carefully look at the difference.

The way I see it, is the chicken would most likely be extinct by now if we hadn't cultivated them, and in order to be cost effective and mass produce, this is what is necessary, it's not a great life for the chickens, no, but cmon, we're just gonna kill em and eat em anyway, so why grow them in the lap of luxury?

Because I like my food not raised in a diseased environment. Some of the KFC chickens are like sorta beaten badly so they are bruised.
Do you really want to eat bruised meat? What happened to the quality meats? I do not know about you guys but I like eating my meat that comes from a healthy animal over some diseased, weak, deformed? animal.

Those factory farms could at least be more like foster farms. Their prices are pretty ok compared to other chickens and they do not do the caged thing.

To that economic standpoint: Why do the free range chicken farms price rise? They do not have to change anything. Only the factory farms need to change so they will have the price rise. People will more likely buy from farmer than factory because its cheaper from farmer.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jan 7 2010, 6:30 am by MasterJohnny.

That's uh, exactly why they do factory farming. It's bigger business.

Most people, including me won't care as long as it fills our ATP requirements.

Quite honestly if I cared more or had the money to do it, I probably would boycott factory farming and only eating farm raised chicken. I probably will in the future. Right now though, it isn't that big of a deal to me to be blunt and honest.
I think he was being sarcastic. So chill.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jan 19 2010, 4:39 am by CecilSunkure. Reason: Keep names in quotes please.

If I can pay 1/4th of the price and have a slight chance my meat isn't going to be quite as good, I'll take it. It's not like they ruin the meat in factory farms, if it was that bad it wouldn't be such a profitable business, and it's not too difficult to avoid damaging the meat.
But the amount of land is a lot bigger, for some animals that we're just gonna slaughter and eat anyway, if you get the same end, why go through such difficult means to get there?

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jan 19 2010, 4:40 am by CecilSunkure. Reason: Keep names in quotes please.

I think we should know that fact that factory chickens have added hormones so they could lay more eggs and such. We apparently don't care of these hormones and what they could do to US after eating some many chickens with so many hormones. Who knows what the side effects will be? They may not be short term but there has to be some definite long term tragedy. Let's also try to realize that some chickens are mutating in these farms. They are usually slaughtered and thrown away (who wants mutated meat???) but think if you started chomping down on a mutated chicken...bad for your health ;p.

I'm against the cruelty to those poor crowded torturous mutated factory farms....but like I said we, including myself, eat their meat. If not their meat, then the cakes and pastries and anything that requires an egg. tisk tisk

Citation needed.
How? You digest the meat, not absorb it into your DNA. Unless it mutates so horribly that it becomes poisonous, it can harm you. And a mutation that would make it poisonous is akin to you mutating a third arm. Virtually impossible.
Factory farms exist because they are highly efficient. If you get rid of them, we will only have free range chickens. Supply suddenly drops greatly while demand stays the same. Price skyrocket. Prices are set based on the most people will pay. Free range chickens will stay the same price only if the seller is an idiot.

The ignorance relating to basic economics and business in this thread is kind of alarming.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jan 19 2010, 4:42 am by CecilSunkure. Reason: Keep names in quotes please.

I'm somewhat undecided and uneducated on the issue, but my first impulse is to put the world on a vegetarian diet. On the other hand, we still want milk, and we still have to keep cows, and it's highly inefficient to give them private suites...

Eh. My approach would probably be to give all animals basic rights, mainly so that they couldn't be beaten (without prior attack, etc), their cages had to be a certain sizes depending on the animal and size of the animal in question, the food has to be of a certain standard, the cages have to be cleaned properly, the government has to approve all hormones and all that cause growth, the government makes surprise visits to check in on the business practices, and the execution has to be done humanely. I'd pay double for KFC if I knew that the animals lived decently. Well, I'd try to throw out KFC and foster nicer and more humane companies, but that's outside the scope of this topic.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jan 8 2010, 3:20 am by Centreri.

http://www.foodandwaterwatch.org:8080/Plone/food/factoryfarms/FoodSafetyFactoryFarms.pdf
I guess when it gets to taste it is subjective (to me that stuff taste nasty). But when you get to like quality of the meat you cannot say it is nutritionally the same or better. Do not say slightly. It is definitely is not going to be good as free range because of all the hormones, diseases, and possible deformity.
You do not get the same end. You get better quality meat.You do not only have free ranged. (because we are not saying they have to be free ranged just no to factory farming) You still have the "efficient enough" no cage barn system that foster farm uses. Free range chicken demand will stay the same. But the supply of chicken should remain the same because the opportunity cost should not be too high.(otherwise foster farm would be out of business)

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jan 19 2010, 4:43 am by CecilSunkure. Reason: Keep names in quotes please.