I asked these questions on my "Sea Units" thread, but I figured they were kinda off topic and deserved a thread of their own. Most of these are pretty basic and opinion based, so they shouldn't be too hard to answer...

1.) How many hero choices should a good open rpg have? I always have trouble deciding when I have enough heroes (I have craploads of ideas for them) so I can start using units for creeps and other stuff.

2.) Should the players be able to choose their heroes by pressing a button, or should there be some sort of challenge involved, ie, you run a bound and you get a hero depending on how far you get, or you go to a certain place, or beat a certain enemy, etc?

3.) Should the heroes be godlike (like in many noob rpgs), or should I go with a more realistic approach of making the heroes just slightly more powerful than any other unit?

4.) Should the bosses be unique, or should I recycle units by making them the same unit but with ups and spells and whatever?

5.) Do most b.net noobs actually pay attention to the storyline of a game?

6.) Should the story revolve around one key item (ie, The Ring, a particular person, a particular place, a special tree, etc), or should the issues a player is concerned with change with each passing quest?

7.) Should the map be composed of water with a lot of relatively small islands, or should it be a large landmass with lakes, rivers and oceans? (In other words, do I start my slate with water and then paint land, or do I start with land and then paint water on it?)

8.) How clear should the line between good and evil be, if there is one at all?

9.) Should each faction's towns be of a different race, or is it better to save units and make each town use the same buildings for the same purposes? (ie, should I use an evolution chamber for the "evil" town and a forge for the "good" town, or should I just use a forge for them both?)

Also, what tileset should I use? I'm trying to decide between Jungle and Ice. Jungle is good because it's well developed in terms of extended terrain, represents an earth-like world, etc, but Ice has one thing that no other tileset has - high water. That is, a tile specifically for high water, the square terrain of which looks exactly the same as water (thus, I could surround the coast with high water, and poof, all of my sea unit problems are solved). However, ice sort of restricts the atmosphere of my map to cold, harsh, wintery, inhospitable, whereas I might want my map to be warmer, more life-friendly, etc.

What do you guys think?

1. One for each player, usually 4.
2. Bound is fun. Elements RPG kind of already did this with the "shadow" class.
3. Low HP Low damage high armor. Uprising did a decent job of this. If you can ever completely decrease damage to a minimum of .5, it should be good.
4. Randomize it. Have multiple enemies with different ups like in rush. Bosses can be both unique (only a few) and perhaps use a goblin "king" approach by having one goblin fully upped.
5. Yes, as long as it's simple.
6. Open RPG. Either do fine, but I'd recommend different ways to "win". Perhaps you can work for 3 different towns.
7. Paint water. You want lakes, but have some islands, or possibly split the land in two like dragonlance.
8. Good v Evil is hard with the string limit. If you go with the 3 towns idea, make one town "good" one town "evil" and one town "neutral" or something like that. You might even have the players working against eachother if they choose a different thing.
9. Ice is fine. Plenty of blends available, although you have to deal with a bit of a "futuristic" approach with the structure. Jungle will do fine too.

1.) ~5

2.) Button. Except you start off as a normal guy and getting a hero is part of the story.

3.) I dont know any comon RPG with Godlike Heroes. Its up to you and the Map u wana desing. Hard maps more replayed then easy ones.

4.) Bosses have to be Unique or they´re no Boss. But Unique can be both of your Opininons... Use the one u like and u got the ressources for.

5.) No, but its up to you for who u make your map.

6.) Up to you and whats your map going to be.

7.) You start with that terrain which will fill the most space.

8.) Up to you and your Story, if you got one.

9.) If you aiming for a good instead of a fast map use as much different Unit types as Possible.

Use that Tilset where your Story fits best in.

Most of your questions higly depend on the Ideas behind your map. Theres no standard way which is best for this and that. First of all i highly suggest you conceive what you wana do, not just "RPG with Water" - detailed. If you got this, u´ll be able to answhere the most of your questions yourself, no one else can this. If u still got questions then, tell us what you wana have/do and we will be able to tell you the way we would prefer/think its best.

For question 1, I'd say as many as you possibly can. Like 15. That way the map has more replay value. I don't know why you would want less.

1. One or two more heroes above the # of players. This way, people who lost would have incentive to remake and try a new combo of heroes.

2. Only do this if you disregard 1) and start off with the same amount of heroes as there are players. Also, you must be very careful. Bound would definately be a big no no in an rpg (Unless it's a side quest or game type of thing). If, let's say, you complete a quest, and you're introduced to another guy that, by doing your quest, also helps or saves him/her, then it is good. Also, with introduction of new heroes, you must have either a) a good storyline that backs up the new hero -OR- b) a good gameplay reason/mechanic that would make players welcome the new hero.. maybe the new hero = extra life for e.g.

3. If you want to play it safe, then go with the godlike. I definately do NOT recommend heroes that are "slightly" stronger than normal units, because it is very hard to balance and b.netters will be negative about it. If you can, try to hit the middle, where the heroes are not godlike (at least not in the beginning), but still decently stronger than normal units.

4. Use both. Unique bosses = big bosses... recycled bosses = mini-bosses, which can increase in number/hp as you play. =D

5. Only if you set the right atmosphere in the beginning. If you pay attention to the introduction of the RPG, then b.netters will pay attention to the storyline for the rest of the game.

6. Obviously it is best to focus on one thing. But it doesn't mean you can't have tons of side-quests (If u want XD)

7. Lots of water with land would take up too space, and you'll find yourself limiting your RPG...

8. A good storyline would make it VERY Clear in the beginning, and Gray it out in the middle, so the heroes question their doings so they'll make some mistakes, and then Very clear again in the End against the final boss... Obviously this is just what I'd prefer... either this or make it Gray, and then very clear in the end. But in the end, it must be clear...... ... Or does it? (cliffhanger!)

9.It is much better to save units for other uses.

Use Jungle as it has the best blends... If u aren't using extended terrain, then do whatever u want.

1.) Hmm. 4 sounds sorta low o_O. 1.5 or 2 for each player (resulting in a total of 6 or 8, assuming 4 players) would probably appeal more to the typical open rpg player (remember, open rpgs tend to be more about variety of what the player can do than the actual storyline).
(Before you ask, I asked the question in the first place because somehow hearing someone come up with an answer I don't agree with helps me form my own opinions. It's weird o_O)
2.) Aww fizzles, are ALL of my ideas already used? Seriously, I even independently invented the scarab spellcasting system and thought it was my own unique idea until I found tutorials for it while I was searching for something... (that was a while back)
3.) Sounds pretty good, except that might make it pointless to get more armor ups, and if any enemy happened to do more than 1 damage (which undoubtedly some would, there has to be high damage low hp enemies), the hero would be toasted o_O. Hmm. I could probably do something like spellsword, assuming that the heroes were protoss (maybe I could make each hero work differently in terms of hp and such).
4.) How? The same comp can't have different ups, can it? And none of the comps will be allied to eachother (the entire point of multiple comps is to make different factions that hate eachother). Hmm. A "king" approach could work, I suppose, it's not completely out of the question to have a comp player that's allied to all the other comps (and unallied with the players) that owns bosses and such.

8.) How does the theme of the map affect the string limit? And I'm gonna have way more than 3 towns, I can assure you that right now. I'll probably have a capital for evil, a capital for good, a few (2 - 3) cities for neutral, an outpost for good, an outpost for evil, and a few scattered bases for creeps. Oh, and don't forget the alien capital . Oh, and the players will be able to build their own completely functional cities. (Don't worry, it's not that hard to fit all this in the map, my "cities" aren't as large as the "cities" in most open rpgs are.)
9.) Hmm. Futuristic is bad for my map... I'm going for a fantasy style (with some technology and sci fi). K, I'll use jungle.

Ok, thanks for the ideas. I think I know what I'm going to do now... (It doesn't matter that I disagreed with most of your opinions as far as I'm concerned, like I mentioned earlier, hearing other people's thoughts somehow helps me form my own opinions.)

Next order of business:
Since I'm only using 4-8 heroes, I'll have to decide which hero ideas I scrap. Here's some of the ideas I can remember off the top of my head:

1.) Vampire (probably zealot or dark templar, perhaps zergling if those are unavailable)
How to obtain: Either get killed in a fight with a vampire, or commit suicide (by jumping down the Evil Waterfall). Note that you must be human or of the Light to do this, it will not work if you are already demonic/undead. Alternatively, it could possibly be a reward for running The Gauntlet (the bound thing I mentioned earlier).
Spells: a.) Shapeshifting - can only be performed inside your coffin, or at exact sunrise/sunset (within 5 seconds of the timer going out). The vampire can shapeshift into either a bat (probably a scourge bat at first, might advance to different units later), or a rat (if I have enough units to make a "rat" unit). Also, in later levels, the vampire can become a fog (dark swarm that follows some cloaked unit, perhaps a cloaked queen).
b.) Nightfall (day only) - The vampire can shift time forward during day so that night can come sooner. The amount of time you can shift forward grows as you level up.
c.) Vanish (night only) - Summons a cloaked overlord (yes it's possible), which immediately takes you up to safety. Assuming the enemy can't see the overlord, you can simply run off with it and unload yourself elsewhere (note: this spell consumes mana until you turn it off by unloading your vampire, so make sure you unload quickly).
Default Alliance: None
Other information: "Mana" represents your supply of blood. It is constantly going down, and it goes down rather fast if you are exposed to sunlight. You gain more mana from kills. Thus, as the vampire, it's important to keep on killing enemies. Also, as a vampire, you get a free coffin. Since vampires aren't welcome in very many cities (contrary to popular belief, vampires are actually at war with the darkness, due to various economical and political issues that you probably don't care about), the coffin also comes with a medic, and upgrade buildings.

2.) Carrion Worm (reaver)
How to get: Random chance of getting it after your hero dies (note that you have to be non-undead).
Spells: a.) Tunneling - moves the reaver to a separate area and replaces it with another unit (probably a faster one and an air unit, and probably cloaked), that you can move around. Cast the spell again, and your worm unearths at the location of the other unit, which then disappears. Being underground also protects you from the sun. Remember, however, that if the other unit (the one that guides the worm tunneling) dies, the worm is forced to unearth.
b.) Consume/Munch - summons a dark templar (representing the worm's teeth) for a few seconds, which does very high damage to anything it can get it's hands on. This is the worm's primary attack, and does not use mana, only a cooldown of a few seconds (building a scarab triggers the tunnel spell, so the reaver cannot launch scarabs).
c.) Regenerate - converts your corpse count (mana) into health; fully heals your worm.
Default Alliance: Dark Side
Other information: The carrion worm, much like the vampire, constantly loses mana, and loses it faster when exposed to sunlight. It's mana represents it's store of decayed material (ie, bodies), and is increased with kills.

3.) Knight (probably zealot)
How to get: Selectable at start. Alternatively, you can become one later in the game if you are nobility.
Spells: a.) Block - makes the knight invulnerable for about a second. Used to block attacks from enemies.
Default Alliance: Neutral/Light (varies)
Other information: If you've played spellsword, playing as a knight will be no problem to you. The knight's combat functions much like that of spellsword, with armor that is set every few seconds to a certain level depending on what armor you are wearing, and gaining attack ups by gaining new weapons.

3 1/2.) Paladin (same unit as knight)
How to get: You will be able to upgrade your knight into a paladin after a while.
Spells: In addition to the Block spell you had as a knight, your paladin will have:
a.) Divine Shield - just like in spellsword; a science vessel is summoned for you to use d matrix (this can also be used to see cloaked enemies).
b.) Wrath of the Light - summons a few scouts that immediately fire upon a random target, and then disappear.
c.) Holy Rage - hands your paladin over to The Light (comp), which has quite a few more ups than you probably will ever get. The comp will most likely order your knight to go on a killing spree of everything evil for a few seconds until the paladin is back under your control.
Default Alliance: The Light
Other information: The paladin has a typical mana system, in which mana constantly rises and eventually hits a max level. As usual, mana is lowered by using spells, and then it regenerates. Also note that the paladin can NOT defect away from the light (ie, by becoming a vampire, joining a neutral faction, etc), which is probably the only reason one would choose not to become a paladin.

4.) Noble (high templar)
How to get: Selectable at start.
Spells: None
Alliance: Any, although not usually Dark Side.
Other information: The noble is basically your "townsperson" hero. It does not fight, but starts out with a good sum of cash, and is able to command other units at the start of the game (also, in some places, you may be offered cheaper goods simply for being aristocracy. Society is funny that way.). Usually as a noble, you buy what you need to make more money (probably a vehicle or ship; armies are hard to come by due to the fact that you need a liscence to legally buy an army), and use it until you are able to afford a Charter to build a new town (you can build a town illegally, but it'll probably make the comp a bit angry, and you might have a hard time building with the comp constantly raiding you).

4 1/2.) King (probably aldaris, although dragoon isn't out of the question)
How to get: Either as a reward for a quest, or you can crown yourself if you own a town and enough of the people like you.
Spells: a.) Rally troops - masses all of your soldiers to your king unit. Really useful for leading large armies, although it's unlikely you'll get more than you can hotkey. Can cast for free without cooldown.
Alliance: Varies - if you were crowned king as a reward for some quest, then you are still with that faction, but crowning yourself generally makes the king of your comp faction angry.
Other information: If you were crowned as a result of a quest, you can switch back and forth from your hero and your king unit. The important thing about being king is that you can expand your town and army without permission from a comp faction. It's essentially an upgraded noble.

5.) The Corrupted Void (observer with recall graphics as it moves)
How to get: Choosable at start.
Spells: a.) The Eye - gives vision with EVERYONE. Spell slowly uses up mana until you turn it off.
b.) Possession - gives you whatever unit The Void is hovering over (does not work on most bosses). The unit must stay within a close distance to the void at first, however, the longer you control it, the farther you are allowed to go from it. To release a unit, simply move out of range. Note that if you try to control a player, you are only able to hold the player for as long as it takes for him to defeat your Mindform (the player is moved to a separate area that represents The Void's mind, and it must fight some unit there until it dies). Note that you cannot possess those who are already possessed or who are strongly attached to The Light (ie, paladins).
c.) Magic Drain - drains the lifeforce of your possessed victim. It takes the form of a few air units (possibly arbiters) that attack your unit, and the longer they are there, the more mana you regain.
d.) Paralyze - summon a dark archon, which you can use to paralyze anything.
e.) If your possessed victim has spells, you will be able to use them.
Default Alliance: Dark side. However, if you possess a member of another faction, you are able to pose as part of that faction as long as they do not discover the possession.
Other information: The Corrupted Void is your typical Omniscient Evil Being. The Corrupted Void itself is invulnerable, however, it is often forced to manifest it's power into some object, which it must keep from being destroyed. If a player finds said object, they are able to use it (usually they do not know of it's connection with Evil), and if they do, you immediately gain permanent vision with them, and if they use it long enough, you will eventually be able to begin possessing them and giving their character orders (ie, you can have it ordered to move to a certain location, you can cause them to unally other players, etc). Also, the Void uses the typical mana system (mana regenerates over time and has a max level). And yes, before you ask, this was inspired by Lord of the Rings >_<.

6.) Void Mage (defiler)
How to get: Choosable at start.
Spells: a.) Dimensional Ripple - Creates a rift in the dimension that releases dark matter (scarabs) from where you cast dark swarm. Make sure to cast these away from your units (unless I can find a way to make it so that the scarabs go to the player and still retain their AI Script).
b.) Teleportation - teleports your defiler to wherever you cast dark swarm. Does not work in certain places, ie, small buildings.
c.) Conjuring - summons some creature (probably a demon) to fight for you. Drains mana until you release the creature. Note that if you run out of mana while still controlling the creature, it turns against you.
Default Alliance: Dark Side
Other information: Has standard mana system. Also, Void Mages can perform demonic rituals (summoning particularly nasty demons into the world, or bringing a particular group some extra power from the Abyss).

7.) Wizard (tassadar)
How to get: Selectable at start. You can choose whether you are a Dark Wizard or a Light Wizard at the same time you choose your hero (they are the same unit, only different spells and alliances). Alternatively, you can get a wizard by running The Gauntlet (this will always be a Dark Wizard).
Spells: a.) Energize - restores the templar to full energy (for storming and such) at a cost of mana.
b.) Fireball - summons a unit (probably scourge bat) with explosion graphics. Move it to a target, and it spawns wraiths which fire upon the target.
c.) Summon Undead (Dark Wizards only) - summons a number of skeletons (broodlings; the amount depends on your level - high levels can conjure armies), which die out over time (due to being broodlings).
d.) Magical Flesh (Light Wizards only) - restores the wizard to full hp.
(Hmm, I need to come up with more spells for the Wizard...)
Alliances: Varies; Dark or Light
Other information: Your generic wizard class. Has typical mana system. Also, Dark Wizards can perform demonic rituals (summoning particularly nasty demons into the world, or bringing a particular group some extra power from the Abyss).

8.) Druid (zeratul)
How to get: Selectable at start. Alternatively, if you are a Wizard and defect to the Nature (creeps and such) faction, you become a druid.
Spells: a.) Entangle - summons a dark archon, which you can use to immobilize an enemy.
b.) Force of Nature - summons lurkers under your druid which can be used to attack some target (good in combination with Entangle). These lurkers disappear after a while.
c.) Natural Remedies - summons a medic that can be used either to heal you or an ally. Medic disappears after a while.
d.) Call of the Trees - awakens any nearby sleeping ents (zerg spires), which then serve you (awakened ents are archons). They constantly drain your mana, and after you run out of mana or you turn the spell off, they revert back to their sleeping form.
e.) Wolf form - druid shapeshifts into a wolf. Note that wolves cannot cast the druid's other spells, and that wolves are not usually welcome in towns that a druid would be accepted into. If an npc sees you shapeshifting, he will probably think you are a werewolf and report you as such (making the neutral and light side towns unally you).
Default Alliance: Nature (creeps), however, the druid can also usually enter neutral and light side towns.
Other information: Has standard mana system. Not much more to the druid, however, you may want to note that "Nature" and "Aliens" share a faction, so you are also allied with the aliens as a druid.

9.) Pantokrator Egg Layer (hydralisk)
How to get: Selectable at start.
Spells: a.) Lay Egg - lays an egg which eventually hatches into another alien, which goes to the Nature faction. Requires that you have an egg to place in the first place.
b.) Human form - shapeshifts your Pantokrator unit into the form of a beautiful human female. This generally allows you to walk right past the neutral faction, which would attack you otherwise.
c.) Hijacking - takes control of a nearby vehicle. If you're a high enough level, you'll even be able to steal vehicles from other players.
Default Alliance: Nature faction; also, it's human form can interact with neutrals.
Other information: As this hero, you will spend most of your time in vehicles, particularly your spaceship. Also, for those who are wondering, "pantokrator" is Greek or something for "almighty."

9 1/2.) The Spaceship (Infested Command Center); will probably get a better name later
How to get: You get into it as the Pantokrator Egg Layer
Spells: a.) Thrusters - summons a queen, which the spaceship follows for quick movement. Constantly drains the ship's energy while in use.
b.) Gun turrets - gives player control of scouts (or whatever) that can be used to shoot a target. Drains energy until turned off.
c.) Shields - summons a bunch of cloaked units that are constantly moving to the ship. While turned on, these make the ship and all it's components invulnerable. However, they use up energy, and they subtract a good chunk of energy when they die (they immediately come back however).
Default Alliance: Nature faction
Other information: Very similar to the "gear" in the map Astrogears. The main purpose of this craft is to traverse the Icy Black (space), although it can also be used for combat, particularly once you buy it more weapons and such.

10.) Spy (probably cloaked civillian, possibly dark templar)
How to get: Selectable at start.
Spells: a.) Hijacking - (same as the Pantokrator Egg Layer's "Hijacking" spell)
b.) Cut Power - use near a generator to cut off the power of an entire town. This disables defences and most detectors.
c.) Disguise - disguises your spy as another unit, allowing you to sneak past comps by pretending to be one of them.
Default Alliance: usually Dark Side
Other information: The spy's activities throughout the game are mostly quests given by it's comp faction, which usually involve infiltrating an enemy town and doing something. Like the Pantokrator Egg Layer, it is good with machines and can adapt to most vehicles with ease.

11.) Psycic Warlord (cloaked dragoon or cloaked ultralisk, or maybe cloaked archon; yes, it's possible. Also comes with a corsair)
How to get: Selectable at start.
Spells: a.) Neurodisabling - summons a dark archon which you can use to paralyze opponents.
b.) Teleportation - teleports your unit to wherever you casted d web. Cannot be used in certain places, ie, small buildings.
Alliances: Haven't decided yet, probably None.
Other information: Mainly a brute strength character. Has standard mana system.

12.) Solbeast Monster (ultralisk)
How to get: Selectable at start.
Spells: a.) Sunbringing (night only) - turns the timer forward, closer to day (the amount by which it goes forward depends on your level).
b.) Focused Energy (day only) - releases your solar energy in the form of archons, which you can use to attack whatever. The archons drain your energy until you turn the spell off.
c.) Sunshine (day only) - summons a medic that can be used to heal you or your allies (although you probably won't have any).
d.) Force of Sol - summons mutalisks, which strike your enemy and then disappear.
Default Alliance: None.
Other information: Essentially an anti-vampire. It gets it's own Solbeast Keep (similar to a vampire coffin), which protects it from the negative power of the Moon. It also has upgrades and a free medic, as most towns do not welcome Solbeast Monsters (admit it - if you saw a huge, shiny looking monster running towards your town, and you didn't know what it was, would you let it in?).

Those are most of my ideas for heroes... I think I may have forgotten a couple... anyways, which ones do you think I should get rid of?

EDIT: Sorry, this took so dang long to type (I didn't type it all in one interval either XD), I only saw Rockz post. Hang on, I'll reply to the other posts.

EDIT2: Because there's a limited amount of units I can use. If I made 15 heroes, that'd mean there would be 15 less units that I could use for creeps, NPCs, etc. (It would also mean that I would have to balance 15 different characters to be roughly equal in how fun they are to play)

EDIT3: Hmm, thanks UnholyUrine, I think that all made sense... (As for the guy a couple posts before him, he was too vague >_<. For example, telling me to make the default terrain I start my map with the same terrain that I want to be the most common on the map doesn't really help much... I asked what terrain should make up the majority of my map XD.)

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jul 23 2009, 7:17 pm by Jesusfreak.

Good vs evil requires two strings for each quest, and there will be a lot of possibilities. Be prepared to plan the HECK out of the map and the strings. Trigger the map if you can FIRST, then put in the strings you want. Also consider using numbers as the string while making it, and refer to a txt file which has that string in it, so you can copy/paste later, possibly in the string editor.

Get rid of the high temps. Psi is somewhat broken most of the time, and high temps are way too slow to be that fun in such an open rpg. Reaver is really only good if you can shapeshift/move faster. Vampire is awesome. obs is cool, but user unfriendly, as is spy. Hydra seems cool, but the ship is sort of futuristic, isn't it? Warlord is simple, but a nonstandard cloaked unit can be cool. If it's pvp make sure everyone has a way to detect.

To fix void mage: give reavers to the player. If you don't like the vision aspect, there's always my way around it (but it will be a beast to trigger properly and will require one computer with shared vision. If I knew more about the map, I'd be happy to help, but I'm also sort of busy between work travel and school now. You also have some really cool ideas I'd like to see finished).

Hmm, thanks... I think...
How do I trigger the map and then put in the strings? Aren't the triggers themselves strings? What does the whole "numbers as the string" thing mean? I don't know much about strings...

How is psi broken? As for the speed, the king and noble units don't need to move much, and maybe I could add a "flight" spell for the wizards, that allowed them to shapeshift into an air unit (or they conjure the air unit and are moved to it by triggers wherever it goes). Would that work? As for the reaver, yes, you can move faster, with the tunneling spell (you move with the queen or whatever unit I use; when you end the spell, your reaver pops back up where your queen or whatever was moved to). And yeh, the ship is futuristic XD. The map is sorta "fantasy with some technology," in other words, you have your demons, undead, and magic, but you also have your rifles, steamships, nazis, and stuff like that.

Yeh, I tried that in my test map I think. When you give the reavers to the player, it messes up the AI Script. In my test map, I had a defiler that made a scarab whenever it dark swarmed. Once summoned, the scarab was to patrol to the same location it spawned in, which caused it to attack one of the nearby Helpless Test Subjects (zerglings). However, if I tried to make giving the reavers to the player as part of the trigger, the AI Script wouldn't work (even if I gave the reavers after running the AI Script). I might have been doing it wrong, maybe I should try replicating it...

psi is 128 112 damage ignoring defense. You HAVE to base your map around this if so.

Strings are stored in the map, and you can fit 65535 characters - 2 per string. Strings are known to mess up your map easily, but I think if you label your strings as 1 in the map, then save in a .txt file:
1 blah blah this is your string and it's ridiculously long
After you're done making the map, you can edit the string "1" and insert in "blah blah this is your string and it's ridiculously long" in the string editor.

As for scarabs, I have little experience. Take a look at maps that use it like scarab defense and such.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 24 2009, 10:58 pm by rockz. Reason: erroneous data. I didn't check first.

It is 8 * 14 = 112 damage to be exact and it's possible to increase the damage of all psi storms by +8 per upgrade.
You have to change the last of the "unused upgrades" in ScmDraft.
However you can't change it in game and it affects a lot of other units, like building armor, spore and worker damage. Basically the damage of every unit whose damage can't be upgraded in game.
So you can use it, but you have to check and possibly adjust for those side effects.

Yeh, I suppose storm would be a bit powerful then, but I think it'd work as long as I gave the heroes a few hundred hp... then again, that might make medics nigh-useless... hmm...
Oh, and I forgot a couple heroes:

13.) The Monkey King (probably Infested Duran, maybe Alexei Stukov)
How to get: Selectable at start.
Spells: a.) The Monkey's Chain - summons a dark archon which you use to bind the target. Pretty simple.
b.) The Monkey's Fist - summons a few guardians, which fire upon some nearby target, and then disappear.
c.) The Monkey - summons a small group of monkey archers to help you fight.
Default Alliance: None (note, if no one chooses the monkey king, he will be a boss under the Nature faction)
Other information: The Monkey King starts out with a small city of monkeys and such, complete with upgrades and everything most cities have. You can also expand the city later, like any other city. However, the Monkey King starts out imprisoned inside a magical room, and the player must use his minions (the monkeys) to find the totem that can break the seal. After that, the player can roam around like any other hero, finding more totems and expanding the monkey kingdom. Totems can give upgrades and sometimes even new spells.

14.) Dark Lord (Dark Archon)
How to get: Run the Gauntlet. It is the highest reward for running the Gauntlet. Alternatively, you can overthrow the Kingdom of Hades and crown yourself their new Dark Lord. Both methods are ridiculously difficult.
Spells: a.) Shadowball - summons some cloaked air unit (probably queen), which constantly has recalll graphics on it. This is your "shadowball," which also spontaneously spawns mutalisks and scouts that attack and then disappear. Occassionally, having the shadowball touch the enemy will draw them into the Dark Realm. Constantly drains mana while in use.
b.) Wrath of Sheol - summons a defiler which can use plague, and then a few seconds later, some skeletons (and a few other random undead) to fight for you.
c.) Curse of Death - summons a few permanent skeletons (infinite energy broodlings). Useful for building large armies fast.
d.) Shadow Displacement - teleports you and anyone near you (including enemies) into the Dark Realm. If enemies get teleported with you, they will probably end up dying.
e.) Darkness Overpowering - only works on other players. If a player has any units near you while you cast this spell, his vision with himself (and everyone else) is temporarily disabled. (Note that spells that give vision, such as The Void's Eye, may cancel this out)
Default Alliance: Dark Side
Other information: In addition to a wide asernal of spells, the Dark Lord also comes with a Mage Hand (carrier) that can do some pretty good physical damage. Also, the Dark Lord uses the typical mana system, however, he can increase his mana regeneration by building more Shadow Generators in his territory (the Dark Lord also starts with a chunk of the Dark Realm for himself, if you ran the gauntlet. If you overthrew Hades and took it for yourself, you will have ALL of the Dark Realm).

You probably don't want to hear this, and I don't mean to troll or anything.. But if you don't feel like you are a very experienced mapper then I don't suggest planning out such a large map. When I started my RPG, a long time ago, I kept learning new things, new tricks, new everything. The result of this learning caused me to learn that how I had previously constructed my RPG bugged the hell out of me. I would see that my triggering was sloppy, or buggy, or I would see that a certain scene sucked, and I constantly had MAJOR alterations on what I had already made to do, instead of working on the rest of the RPG yet to be made. I've remade mine 3 times now, and only recently have I been happy with I see. Keep in mind that I have been working on this for years, and for good reasons. I'm a rather busy person, and I can't make this RPG as fast as many people here can, and like I said I remade this RPG 3 times because I kept learning better ways to do things.

Just a thought.

Makes sense. What would you call an "experienced" mapper? I've attempted to make maps for a while now (over a year), and I know many of the tricks and such, but I haven't actually finished anything yet.

And what would you suggest starting with first? Open RPG sounds like the easiest thing for me - even though they're big, it's a largely underdeveloped genre that needs tons of improvement (improvements that I can probably make). In other words, it'll be easier for me to come up with new and fun stuff because there's less "old" stuff I can be compared to in the Open RPG genre.

What would I call an experienced mapper? Oh shoot.. Well, I would say that an experienced mapper is more of someone who knows how to make a SC map fun, not necessarily the person with the best know-how of triggering.

If you are familiar enough with creating triggers to make an RPG fast enough, and swift enough, then by all means go for, I love RPGs

Basically, if you can use triggers to do what you want to do for your map, you are experienced enough to go through with it.

If you want to learn more, like I decided I needed to, make a series of smaller maps, and make them as fun as possible.

I made a bunch of different maps, none too epically huge, just to get used to using DC's. I really haven't been mapmaking for long at all compared to the other people here, so in all honesty when I started my RPG I had no clue what a deathcount timer was and I used waits for everything. I also placed all my triggers into each player, so my triggers all DIED when tried to play the thing with more than 1 person.

I learned a TON from making my Absorb n Reflect map (which isn't finished, I need to balance it, but I don't have the time), and I learned how to master the use of switch randomization in an Impossible Scenarios map that I made. I randomized 4 switches for I believe a total of 14 outcomes, or 12 w/e.

If you think you can make this map FUN, and have enough familiarity with triggering to make it fast and without bugs (so you don't spend too much time debugging), then you are ready to make the map.

What do you mean by "fast"? Do you mean fast triggers, fast leveling, fast movement, or what?

Also, why are deathcount timers better than waits? Waits can cause wait blocks, but wouldn't deathcount timers cause trigger lag, since they're constantly going and you'll probably need a lot of them? I personally would prefer the broodling timer system for my waits and such. It's much simpler to do and doesn't require as many triggers to run at the same time - simply create a broodling with whatever percentage of energy you want it to have (be sure to use "create with properties," it'll have infinite energy if you just do "create"), and have the game do something when it detects that the broodling isn't there anymore.

(By the way, wouldn't 4 switches result in 16 outcomes?)

Darn, I thought about fixing my post to correct ambiguity, should have. I mean as in making the triggers swiftly, as in using small amounts of time to create large amounts of triggers. That comes in a lot with which editor you use. I use scmdraft2, and many people say that clicking through those windows is annoying. But I can create 100 triggers or so, with 3 conditions and 5 actions in about 3 hours, including debugging time. Not sure if that is fast or slow, but I think it is fast enough.


Well you can make sure that your triggers aren't constantly counting, and only counting when you want them to. I use DC's for, well, everything nowadays. DC's allow for such control over everything that I don't like using anything besides DC's.

lol

3 switches --> 8 outcomes, throw in another switch for a total of four, and it's simple math of 8x2 which = 16 outcomes. So yep, 16 outcomes.

A Seasoned mapper would be one that knows Deathcounts like the back of his hand, has one or more popular maps, or maps that WERE popular, and is basically just one step away from doing EUD's...
Kinda like me and a lot of people here too

But even I wouldn't do all that, because I'm lazy, and it'd be hard to do all this...

Fortunately this is only brainstorming, and I really like your ideas..

First of all, your #1-12 heroes are all very good (except the spy, which can be taken out due to the Egg guy)...
Also the OBserver one is Stretching it a bit.. and should also be removed if need be... due to balancing issues
Your ideas are very good and I can see you're very ambitious
But one must step back and think about this on a grand scheme....

A) What kind of RPG do you plan to do? From the looks of it, I'm feeling it's going to be a Quests Open RPG type. With this in mind, players usually do not ally each other and just go do w/e they want. So..
B) How does each hero you just mentioned fit into your game. What role do they have?...
C) You obviously have Night and Day triggers (or are planning to)... How would the Vampire or Night Dwelling Heroes work?
D) I recommend you choose heroes that will definately clash during the game. If every player can just go their own way, then it's no fun (Kinda like Quests Open RPG.. it's cool but it definately gets boring :C)...
-The Vampire is a VERY good hero example... but if he kills someone and they become a vampire.... can't they just backstab you? Or at least hinder you. It's still a good idea, but I think Vampire needs a bigger role too...
-The Noble and King heroes... I think people should be able to start off as Noble and work their way to the King... If I can be a knight and do quests to be king, the quests should be Plentiful and difficult, so that the Noble usually fills the role of being the king. Usually...
-The Worm sounds awfully interesting.. but it's a freaking reaver :C... I'd suggest that when he is "burrowing"... when he builds a scarab, he unburrows and attack right away. Also it needs a bigger role .
-Psychic Warlord can go if u please.
-Solbeast is interesting too... It ought to be the Guardian of the "Nature" side (or faction or w/e)... That'd give it a bigger role. Also Druids can fill this role too I guess :\ (If need be.. I'd choose Druid... but Solbeast is still very interesting)
-Wizard maybe needs a higher attacking spell .... like an Ultimate Spell that just wipes the floor with his enemies. .. For Dark Side it can be something like "Soul Seep" that paralyzes and changes foes' hp to like 1% (maybe not hero) while healing himself... while for LIght Side it can be something like..... I don't know :\... Messiah Light ? that just spawns reavers or smth that rapes shit...

E) Your alliance thing is intriguing. You must make sure that some heroes can exploit this ... and have a reason for them to exploit it..

EDIT: Actually, I'm so intrigued that I'm willing to offer a hand and help with your map .. just PM me if u accept my offer

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 24 2009, 5:59 pm by UnholyUrine.

No, no, NO! The only similarities between my map idea and quests is that it has the word "Open RPG" in the title and that it gives the same promises ("do whatever you want," "be good, be evil, be neutral," etc), but mine actually intends to fulfill them.
The vampire is a loner. It's primary enemy is the Light, as the Light brings forth day. Also, the vampires represent the [former] aristocracy of the undead nations (they were recently kicked out), and generally fight to keep fuedalism going.
The Carrion Worm is just a possible second life for players who die. It doesn't have much of a story as such. (The idea is that after you die, the carrion worms come and eat your body, and also absorb your soul, allowing you to play as the worm.)
The knight and paladin are warriors of The Light. Most of their quests revolve around serving their lord (for the knight) and striking against The Darkness.
The noble is basically your "townsperson" class that sits around and buys stuff. It may also have some power in it's local area (comp town).
The King is the unit that you get if you want to command other units. As a king, you represent your own faction.
The Corrupted Void is your typical omniscient evil villain. Think of The Ring and the eye thing in Lord of the Rings, and you have a pretty good idea. Come on, who hasn't wanted to play as the evil power?
The Void Mages are the servants of The Corrupted Void and draw their power from it. Their primary goal is to take down The Light and all neutral factions, as these represent order, whereas The Void represents chaos and destruction. Void Mages also function as demoic occultists serving the Kingdom of Hades.
The Wizard is your typical spellcasting hero. Gotta have one XD. The Dark Wizards also function as demonic occultists, like the void mages.
The Druids are technically Nature Wizards. They fight for the defence of nature (which frequently means fighting against the neutral factions, ie, humans and gnomes), however, unknowingly to them, their gods are actually Pantokrator (alien) overlords that are using their territory as a safe landing site for their craft.
The Pantokrator Egg Layer is a princess of the Pantokrator Empire, chosen to spread their kind on the New World. She is also proficient in espionage, and a few of the quests involve courting and seducing human kings to bring them under Pantokrator control.
The Spy is similar to the egg layer, but he is completely human (or sometimes undead), and his quests are more about stealth than deceit, and usually involve solving your problems by blowing things up rather than using diplomacy and manipulation.
The Psycic Warlord leads various barbarian tribes and is similar in that way to a King. These barbarian tribes are often friendly with the druids and enemies with the neutral factions, which represent industrialization and civilization. The Psysic Warlord also is a strong fighting unit.
The Solbeast Monster is a new monster that I made up. It is hated by the followers of The Light because it is a monster and "looks" evil, and it is rejected by the followers of The Darkness because it thrives on solar energy and light. Thus, it represents the outcasts, and it is the enemy of everyone.
The Dark Lord is a high ranking leader in the Kingdom of Hades. As such, he represents The Darkness in all ways and is archenemies with The Light.
The Monkey King is just something I threw out there XD. He owns the Monkey Kingdom and generally fights against the humans, as the humans are evolutionarily inferior to the monkeys. Besides, everyone loves monkeys!

Got any idea of who everyone is now?
I think I discussed this, although I may not have been clear about it: The vampire and carrion worm are constantly losing mana, and gain mana with kills. However, when exposed to sunlight, their mana goes down MUCH faster, and they die if their mana ever hits 0 (as a vampire, the increase of mana loss is lessened as you level). Also, some spells don't work in daylight. Also, the Solbeast Monster gains mana when exposed to the sun, and loses it when exposed to the moon. As it's mana gets lower, it starts suffering from slowness, and is immobilized entirely when it's mana hits 0 (mana represents it's solar batteries).
They will. It's highly unlikely that all players will choose heroes of the same faction, and I might implement a system that prevents all the players from going to the same faction.
They do. It's highly risky to become king at the start of the game, as when you crown yourself, it makes the comp factions angry (and they attack you). I'll probably remove the option to start as king.
Too powerful. XD
What do you mean by "exploit" it?

Exploit it as in be good to the faction not because the hero is good to them.. but using them

Well u seem to have kind of a niche for every hero.. some of them are overlapped but not really overlapped... But again. aren't you kinda pressed for units then? ... That'd be my concern

I AM pressed for units. That's why I listed all those in the first place, so you could tell me what ones I should get rid of XD. Here's my ideas of what I can do with all the units so far (if it matters whether the hero or normal unit is used, I specify):

Cocoon - not sure
Egg - Not sure
Lurker Egg - Not sure
Larva - not sure
Devourer - undead frigate (or zombified u-boat if I can get them to cloak)
Guardian - The Monkey's Fist or Demonic Apparition
Mutalisk - Ghost, spirit, etc or vampire bat form; maybe a wyvern/dragon
Overlord - Vanishing Cloak (for normal overlord), Galleon (for hero)
Queen - Generic "Thing-Doer" (not sure about hero queen; perhaps it could be an upgrade to the thrusters on the alien ship that can also do spells and such)
Scourge Bat - Bat
Infested Command Center - Alien Spaceship
Creep Colony - farm
Defiler Mound - maybe Decrepid Library (not sure yet)
Evolution Chamber - not sure yet
Extractor - not sure yet, some kind of temple though (vespene geysers represent holy ground)
Greater spire - sleeping ent
Hatchery - not sure yet, maybe either Fungiform Tower or Great Tent
Hive - not sure yet, probably something undead
Hydra den - werewolf den
Lair - spaceport (maybe)
Nydus canal - tunnel
Queen's nest - not sure, probably Communist HQ or Great Tent or the nest of some dragon
Spawning pool - lava pit or some kind of arena (not sure yet)
Spire - Fruit-bearing tree
Spore colony - tombstone or maybe The Infernal Machine (infernal machine is part of a quest)
Sunken colony - tentacle monster
Ultra den - cave
Infested Terran - Kupo Beans (currency of the Kupo Archipeligo; highly volatile, and contrary to their name, they're actually seeds from fruit, not beans)
Broodling - skeleton
Defiler - Void Mage, maybe Sage or Old Hermit
Drone - peasant
Hydralisk - Pantokrator Egg Layer (non-hero) / not sure yet for hero hydra
Lurker - shadowfiend
Ultralisk - Psycic Warlord (non-hero) / Solbeast monster (or maybe generic demon or Biotek Assault Tank if one of those heroes gets scrapped)
Zergling - not sure yet, zerglings can be craploads of things XD. Barbarian warriors, werewolves, demonic occultists, assassins, zombies, no idea yet...
Infested Duran - probably Monkey King or monkey archers
Infested Kerri - mermaid, or maybe a form of vampire. Could also work as an alien/barbarian/whatever footsoldier. Not sure yet, but leaning towards mermaid.
Zerg Beacon - Territory Marker
Zerg Flag Beacon - not sure yet, probably "Enter Building" marker
Mature Crysalis - Living Wall
Overmind Cocoon - not sure yet, probably some sort of power generator
Cerebrate - not sure yet, maybe Lunar Generator
Cerebrate Daggoth - (see Zerg Cerebrate)
Overmind - not sure yet, probably some sort of important building.
Overmind (with shell) - not sure yet, probably some sort of important building.
Comsat station - not sure yet, maybe a Desk With Convenient World Maps or The Evil Eye
Control tower - not sure yet
Covert Ops - Not sure yet, maybe "bookshelf" (if a disabled sprite)
Machine Shop - cave wall
Nuke Silo - not sure yet
Physics lab - not sure yet
Battlecruiser - steamship, Blackfarer (spaceship), Iron Blimp (zepplin), THE Happy-Fun Iron Blimp
Dropship - bomber, maybe galleon or helicopter
Science vessel - divine protection, scout pod (for alien ship or something), or maybe Orb of Light
Valkyrie - not sure, maybe a Divine Wind or Hurricane
Wraith - gnomish u-boat (hero) / gnomish flying machine (non-hero, which should never get the cloaking ability)
Academy - deciding between Library or Supermarket
Armory - probably factory, maybe keep (as in, Keep in a castle)
Barracks - Military Barracks
Bunker - not sure yet on name, but the invisible bunker effect will be used in the Fire Temple and in Hades, and to make certain trees catch on fire.
Command Center - not sure yet, maybe castle
Engineering Bay - market
Factory - Gnomish vehicle shop
Missle turret - Coastguard or maybe The Infernal Machine
Refinery - not sure yet, some kind of temple though
Science Facility - either Supermarket/Mall or Technology Lab
Starport - not sure yet
Supply depot - probably Human-esque House, maybe Wall
Firebat - demonic fire (for invisible bunkers), not sure what to do with other one
Ghost - Monkey Archers (if not already infested durans), Riflemen, boss that I won't give away the name of yet
Goliath - Overseer (like plantation owner or factory manager), not sure about other goliath unit
Marine - Gnome Trooper (hero), not sure on non-hero rines yet
Medic - Bachallania Cultist
SCV - Techie/Engineer/Whatever
Siege tank (siege mode) - Inferno Canons, not sure what to do with other one
Siege tank (tank mode) - Tank, not sure about other one, maybe Fire Hands (if you cloak the tank, siege it, and unsiege it, it's gun turret will be visible =P).
Vulture - Llama Rider, King Barricade O'Llama (boss with some political satire thrown in XD)
Kerri - not sure yet, deciding between Courtroom Dancers (disabled kerri animation, for decoration of one's palace XD), some sort of rifle-bearer, or Gnomish Scientist. If medic gets thrown out as Bachallania Cultists (due to it's purpose for healing), Kerri would probably replace it.
Civillian - Spy, or if the Spy hero gets scrapped, maybe it can be Burgeiosie (or however you spell it) or something.
Nuke - not sure yet
Terran beacon - not sure yet
Terran flag beacon - not sure yet
Spider Mine - not sure yet
Ion Canon - Iron Temple
Norad II - Crashed Iron Blimp (the whole "crashed" thing is actually a disguise to lure in heroes XD)
Power Generator - Iron Temple Wall
Psi Disrupter - not sure yet
Arbiter - not sure yet, probably some kind of ship or maybe part of a boss fight
Carrier - Mage Hand (non hero with the 4 interceptor max) / Kraken/Sea Monster (hero)
Corsair - pirate ship (non-hero that should never get d web) / Psi-Focuser (hero)
Interceptor - Tentacle
Observer - The Corrupted Void (if that hero gets scrapped, I'm not sure. I'll probably end up keeping The Corrupted Void as a boss even if I remove it as a hero)
Scout - Sea Angel (non-hero without speed upgrade), Speedboat (hero), Lightning (other hero)
Shuttle - not sure what to call it, but it'll probably be a Light Side transport unit
Arbiter Tribunal - not sure yet
Assimilator - not sure yet, some kind of Temple (probably belonging to The Light)
Citadel of Adun - not sure yet, maybe Elf-esque House
Cybernetics Core - not sure yet
Fleet Beacon - not sure yet
Forge - Blacksmith or Forge
Gateway - not sure yet
Nexus - not sure yet
Observatory - Telescope
Photon Cannon - Tesla Coil
Pylon - Magitech Extension
Robotics Facility - Gatemaster
Robotics Support Bay - Magitech Generator
Shield Battery - not sure yet, probably Undead-esque House
Stargate - not sure yet, maybe Port
Templar Archives - Library
Archon - Ent, not sure what to do with other archon (it could possibly be Psycic Warlord, or maybe a water elemental, earth elemental, fire elemental, generic elemental, or a Deity, or a Divine Being, maybe Ignatio Voltra [boss] or an Energy Orb... not sure)
Dark Templar - Elf Warrior (non-hero), Druid (Zeratul), not sure about hero dark templar...
Dragoon - possibly Psycic Warlord, maybe Ignatio Voltra (boss), maybe Phantom
High Templar - Noble (non-hero, and with no spells), King (aldaris), Wizard (tassadar)... if one of those gets scrapped, I can probably make it into Sage or Old Hermit (if defiler doesn't take the part) or something like that
Probe - deciding between Magitechnician or The Shadowmeister (boss)
Reaver - Carrion Worm, not sure what to do with other reaver... I'm thinking of a tunneling vehicle called the "Montak" (named after the "Montauk" from C&C Tiberian Sun), but it's kinda similar to the carrion worm... (reavers will be a part of the spellcasting system, but I don't think they need a separate name for that purpose, no one cares about names for purely function things, so it's ok to reuse there...)
Scarab - not sure what to call it, I can't really imagine a carrion worm throwing any sort of projectile
Zealot - like the ling, so many ideas for this one... Vampire, Knight, Paladin (if knight and paladin end up as separate units, then paladin will definitely be hero), footsoldier (of almost any race XD), Merman, Pirate Foot Soldier, Zombie, Skeleton (if for some reason broodlings don't work out)...
Protoss Beacon - not sure yet
Protoss Flag Beacon - not sure yet
Khaydarin Crystal Formation - Ice Formation
Temple - probably either Tomb or Vampire Coffin
Stasis Cell - not sure yet, maybe vampire coffin
Warp Gate - not sure yet
Xel'Naga Temple - probably some important building, maybe a tomb (pyramids are tombs ye know =P) or part of a boss fight (it could be an Obelisk of Light or something =P)
Bengalaas - not sure
Kakaru - not sure, might work as Vampire Bat Form if scourge doesn't work out
Ragnasaur - not sure
Rhynadon - not sure
Scantid - not sure
Ursadon - not sure
(note that one of the critters will be a "Llama" unit that can be picked up and rode as a vehicle; if you ride it, you are a Llama Rider [vult] until you get off or the llama dies)
Gun traps, doors, etc - not sure what to call them, doors will be some sort of Gate, guns might function as a pop-up wall or something
Data disc - not sure yet
Khalis Crystal - not sure yet
Khaydarin Crystal - not sure yet
Psi Emitter - not sure yet
Uraj Crystal - not sure yet
Crysalis - not sure yet
Mineral Chunk (type 1) - not sure on name yet, but it's some kind of drug from the Kuponian Archipeligo
Mineral Chunk (type 2) - not sure yet
Mineral fields - not sure for any of them yet, although one of them might function well as "indestructible" forcefields assuming they can be created with triggers...
Vespene Geyser - Holy Ground
Vespene Orb (type 1 and 2) - not sure yet on either, although one will probably be some sort of explosive
Vespene Sac (type 1) - Kupo Nuts
Vespene Sac (type 2) - not sure yet
Vespene tank (type 1 and 2) - not sure yet, although one will probably be Oil or something generic like that XD
Flag - not sure yet

Phew, that took me a while. Those are my ideas for what to do with units, as you can see, I'm kind of strapped on units, but I have a lot of available slots for protoss buildings, critters, and powerups.