K shred. Stop the nitpicking. Arguments over. You lose.

A quick question that I hope leads to no argueing, unlike the previous posts...
Is ling overpowered? This is why I think so...
Lvl 3 skill allows splash training. This is usually achieved between 2nd day and 2nd night (for me). With splash training, ling gets double exp (obviously) which gives a pretty unfair advantage.
Spawns cannot kill ling (USUALLY). Lvl 3 rips through everything, though the low hp MIGHT make up for it...
Melee units (although usually it's not that hard to predict when the ling is gonna use lvl 2) cannot fight ling to the death because they'll die from lvl 2 first (unless you have 2k+ hp aka warrior.)
Here is (IMO, correct me if I'm wrong and please don't call me a noob just for getting something wrong...) my list of how heroes match up to ling:
Warrior: Played correctly warrior probably shouldn't die against ling, though it probably can't kill ling either (UNLESS Warrior gets lvl 3 + lvl 4, though most warriors dont. I've never seen anyone do it but it should work.) 1/2-1/2
Firebat: I haven't played anything past m3 and I barely do (I play 1.5 XD) but I'll talk about mt. Most people can't land a perfect lvl 1 to block lvl 2/3, though you CAN use lvl 3 to. But just as with Warrior you can't win either. 1/2 - 1/2
Marine: (Oh yah, sorry if I skip between sc names and ts names, I do that really often.) Talking about mt again, Marine has nothing that stops ling except SV and (Final) Mines. Pure hp isn't good enough. SV slows down ling but cannot kill (again) and mines slow down the ling further until ling gets high mana + hp. 1/2-1/2
Dark Mage: I've heard people say that dark mage counters ling O.o. This is true until later game, so when facing dark mage ling just needs to live until he gets decent mana so he can lurk him (or even lings if he gets a lucky shot O.o). Ling wins.
Mech: Ew, the "counter" of ling. Ling cannot hit mech without lvl 3 and even then misses most of the time (against good players, unfortunately a lot of people get hit...). However, if mech chases ling then lurks automatically stop the chase. (Lings can too, I've seen it happen in close spaces.) I guess with perfect play probably equal, but I'll say Mech wins because most people aren't perfect. Mech Wins.
Light Mage: I'm just gonna end this one. Ling Wins.
Summoner: I'm going to assume 3 v 3. 80 Mana vs how many lings is worth it? 4 = good deal. Usually 2 ling can take down and 3 isn't that much mana loss because you are still gaining exp. Anyways you probably won't die from 3. Pretty simple, ling counters summoner overall. Ling Wins.
Archer: Bleh people say archer is better but it's wrong. Ling is faster than archer thus can lvl 3 him. Archer companions get murdered. Lvl 1 < Lvl 3, obviously. And if the argument is about lvl 4 of archer, then one word: Dodge. Please. (2 actually.) Ling wins. (Of course early game ling gets owned, but lings a late game character.)
Assassin: Night vision, lvl 3 before he even gets near, end. Sure you can't kill him, but nobody can kill assassin, so that's not how you "win" against him. Ling Wins.
Volt: Any spell can be used to kill volt. If he uses lvl 2, manual FTW! (For some reason I'm VERY bad at manualing vs volt lvl 2 but most people can so that's all that matters.) Ling Wins.
Medic: FH owns all, but since if that was taken to account every unit would lose to medic. Thus, ling does pretty decent against medic. Disable? Run. You should be able to use at least one spell before disable. Also, I haven't tried but if you spam like 5 lvl 3's and you get disabled, do they activate? Or do they start after disable. Anyways, ling counts as a pretty decent win vs medic. Ling Wins.
Overall score: 1 Sorta loss, 2 ties, 8 wins. I think that should be considered overpowered.
And please don't answer this post by saying another unit is also overpowered based on this, I want to know if LING is overpowered. Thanks for any (hopefully nice) responses

To stop the ridiculous bullshit I have a trivial suggestion for the Assault L1:
Make the corsair killable again, but make it so that it is removed as soon as a D-Web is placed, so that it takes skill to avoid dying.


EDIT: Wow fucking huge post that makes me want to claw my eyeballs out. Please use spacing.

I'm just going to do the Mutant versus hero matchups:

Mech: Mech wins via Vulture micro. You can catch it with an L3, but you'll never land both of the spines. So yeah, Mech wins this easily.
Spec Ops: Just micro. It's a classic toss up here.
Assault: With the return of Dropship, Assault will be much better than ling. As it is now, the ling wins. But since most versions have Dropship, I'll say Assault wins.
Medic: Toss up, neither really wins because neither can finish the other.
Assassin: Assassin gets ganked, NV wins this easily.
Warrior: L2/L3 end the Mutant if it tries to engage melee. If it goes range, Warrior just has too much life and you burn mana hard. Plus, he can still catch you with L3 if you come close. Warrior wins.
Volt: Volt sucks against a lot of heroes until endgame. Then it will L3+L4 you and kill you. No change here, it's a tossup really.
LM: Also a toss up due to L1 dodging lurkers. Ling has the edge, though, definitely.
Archer: Ling needs to get some HP to counter mass L1, so he's not as effective at killing with lurkers. Given enough exp to both teams, Ling wins by virtue of L3 spam, yes, but how often does that actually happen? So a toss up here, again.
Summoner: Ling counters summoner pretty well.
DM: Ling loses badly. L2+L1 ends him. Burrow dodge can be cute: good luck.

So my score is:
Wins: 3 (Assassin, LM, Summoner)
Losses: 4 (Mech, Assault, Warrior, DM)
Toss-ups: 4 (Spec Ops, Medic, Volt, Archer)

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Jul 22 2009, 4:07 am by FaZ-.

@IAGD2D lol a good shortened name for you...

The only problem i have in this is that you're not including all the spells and such in this such as volt, where you didnt even mention his l3. Don't take this the wrong way, but some of your reasonings may be a result of a lack of play. Not saying you're bad or noob or anything, but such things as what you said about the lm... lm can actually beat out mutant a lotta times just due to his l1 owning all but one of the ling's spells, and thats the l4. In some ways you're right, but i wudnt say ling is OP... you also have to consider early, mid, and late game. The ling may be really good/op late game, but early game, he has no attack spells and therefore can die quite easily, made easier due to his low hp.

Good question Die, I used to fear ling so much. Yes he is dangerous but easyliy top tier but far from invinc.

Lings hard counters:
Volt,Bat,Warrior

Volt:
L2 rapes his whole arsenal of moves, yes even l4. Yes he can manual you but his hp is so low that you will kill him before he kills you, plus your attack per hit is way higher. If you are worried about him manualing you to death, get 2-3 HP. If he gets HP just l1->L3->L4 = Dead ling. Although be careful, a clean L2 will wipe the floor with you, even superchareged with enough ups, the key to volt vs ling is spacing and magging him properly, and his moves as well.

Firebat:
CB keeps you safe from him and you can chainstun him all day to death. Bombs also make his L2 whiff, you just have to be fast to stop his L2 if his stunned. If he L4's to escape chase him down as he will stunned when its over and finish him. Get HP at 200mana, to rape his lurks.

Warrior:
Your naturally High Atk, HP, and godly stun rape everything in his arsenal. Its usually better to regular attack him to death, because your L2 will make you suspectible to his. If he hes Pumped , just L4 and proceed to rape. If he gets HP then its safe to L2 as his mana will be pretty crappy.

Mech:
They can go toe to toe as far as powers units go. Its hard to say who has the advantage, I'd have to say ling but its very minute. Do not L4 a good ling because he will L4 you and 3shot your vulture. Pumped lurkers are countered with armor and proper transing.



Ling is manageable. Also against any lurker ling get armor. It drastically reduces its killing power. It really helps.
Your concerns about his splash training are true, but you should only worry about him really taking off with lurkers on rines.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 22 2009, 4:06 am by Genocidal.Legend.

I'm pretty sure I am right. Cause Im one of the best. .

Have fun being the best.... somewhere other than SEN.

i'd have to disagree about how you said l2 would own ling... ling manualing through the volt's l2 basically is an auto-death for volt, since all the lings get full hits... it like a summoner manualing volt, only the volt can't kill off any of the attacking lings and cant move.

Mech: Yep.
Spec Ops: How does micro help you win? Sure it can help you lower lings hp to pretty low but how does it kill? How does it "beat" ling? Nothing rine has can "stop" ling, just a very temporary issue.
Assault: Maybe, though I say ling still has a better advantage because drop usually doesn't hit anyways.
Medic: True, but ling can stop medic from getting exp by splashing with lvl 3. Medic will be forced to move, so why not move with her?
Assassin: Uh huh.
Warrior: Lvl 2 traps yourself and gives yourself free hits. By using lvl 3, lings lvl 2 is 30 mana less than lvl 3 and ling usually has more mana than warrior. Units also often stop attacking when lvl 2 stacks upon them.
Volt: How do you even get hit by that lvl 3?
LM: I'm sorry but that is entirely untrue. If LM uses lvl 1, you run back and lvl 3 (Lvl 2 works a lot more than expected too lol). Reavers? Run, reavers hit 1/4 damage on running units. You can usually kill him before he kills you.
Archer: You don't need hp, 2-3 lurks kills archer, but how many lvl 1's kill ling? Probably 4-5. Most likely, the lurks and mutas will not be able to attack twice, while ling can always run if he's losing, but archer cannot run if he is.
Summoner: Yes.
DM: Lurkers can manual very easily. DM alone cannot beat ling, but with help it can. Anyways, stay away and it's safe. There's no time they should be able to gang on you because you have vision in night and day.

I've never tried manualing lurkers, interesting.

With a lot of your analysis, you're relying on the fact that you don't make any PvP action until extreme lategame. The ling is definitely powerful lategame, but that means that most other classes have their L4's if you have L3 and 240+ mana. They aren't just going to sit around exp'ing until you decide you're ready, they are going to force conflict and take map control if you avoid it. Then with mass assims you've already lost against anything.

The mutant has low HP, and if you want to keep up you have to take risks. That puts you at risk of dying, especially so lategame if you have tons of upgrades and mana, but not life.

I do agree with putting a pre-spell effect on the L3 though, as has been suggested and done elsewhere.

Is archer's l2 nonexistant?

The whole point of ling is to have a good lategame. If conflicts are unneccesary don't go into them

[quote FaZ-]They aren't just going to sit around exp'ing until you decide you're ready, they are going to force conflict and take map control if you avoid it. Then with mass assims you've already lost against anything.[/quote]

Archer's Companions were moved to L2, Guardians are L3. What is the result of the target selection process, Moose?

Interesting game, somehow rine BEAT summoner when it turned into 1 v 1 at end.
I dunno how XD.

Attachments:

I think I'm going to cry.
...

Seriously..

Why is it that everyone who disagrees with me is completely unable to form an argument? Never mind a coherent one, even something incoherent would be a welcome change. If you disagree, give reasons why. Otherwise, you're worse than useless.

It's not an argument. You're being taught counters by someone who probably only posts once a month and are expected to be taken seriously.

Trivial indeed. Assault doesn't need this. It needs to become competitive with the other heroes again.

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You need 80 mana per spawn to sustain that splash training. That just won't happen for quite some time.

L3 is essential for Warrior to kill Mutant, otherwise Mutant will run away.
A good Mutant will be using L4 vs. Warrior, as well.

Just wait until Dropship comes back.

L3. Then again, you don't have that L3 because you don't play 1.4M4+.

If you get that close to Mutant after Maelstrom, you deserve it. Dark Mage shouldn't be trying to melee kill Mutant without L4 mid-game or later. L2 + L4 is ideal.

Disable cancels out pre-built spells now. Not sure when I implemented the change, because it was pre-M4.

Medic (and Spec Ops) are flat out better than Mutant early-game if they have any ability to micro at all. (step, hold, step, hold)
Then again, Mutant should be doing run-in-front, attack micro.
Micro challenge is fun.

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Because they're pros. They're right because they're right. How dare you question them! How dare you ask for what they think is correct after they tell you that you're wrong!

Despite Maxx's behavior, before he came there was nothing except fanfics, fanart, and general lack of discussion. Say what you will about him, but he brought the forums alive with ideas, conversation, and analysis of units. Something which basically none of you have done before he came here. He was actually furthering progress towards a more balanced version e.g the change of direction for the Assault. His experience even lead to some huge paragraphs of wisdom (the Assault essay being one) which may as well be the "OFFICIAL TEMPLE SIEGE STRATEGY GUIDES" relatively to the quality of posts that have been presented in this thread. Who gives a shit about his attitude on B.net. He's only going to win annoying yes-men and people who judge skill by how much they like them, if he acts nice to everyone.

Also, here's quite a logical situation. We have someone who beats quite literally every person on the forum down to the ground, posts the types of strategies he uses, and you actually think it's smart to debate strategy with this person? Be honest with yourself, if you were Maxx, how could you take anyone on this forum seriously?
Oh wait. Never mind. Let's just focus on the negative things and completely disregard all else. If you want to further advertise the "Hating Maxx" bandwagon, be my guest, it shouldn't matter to someone with such an abundance of yes-men at their disposal.

I don't think I've seen an ego that bad since Maxx was here. Maybe it was a sign.