Killer, your sentences are too long o.O

Mine capping is extremly overpowered because of the fact that you can cap while bashing or chasing an enemy. The enemy would lose a lot of valueable hp due to the fact Spec Ops is ranged. This is not a problem with 1.5, though, because it was move to the fbat, so it is harder to chase the enemy.

and this is so much worse than a ghost capping with a medic sniping your ass? or how about dark mage maeling you while still on beacon capping with his dark orb and then disposing you as he pleases?

i mean c'mon if you gona take out something like that you kinda need to do it to everyone. granted these units have small hp but they can also run unlike mines. What i'm trying to get across is theres no point in removing mines. Just need to weaken the rine or give him a new spell if you can't do that.

This is exactly why i don't like the options to make a character weaker by decreasing his dmg and increasing his hp. It is overkill at the begining game which gives him a great advantage by propelling him and his team into endgame faster.

The difference with the Spec Ops and the Medic and DM is that Spec Ops is easy to manuver. It is both speedy and ranged, which DM isn't. Medic has the range, but its not the stongest or the fastest.

You can kill a medic for 8 exp. You can kill an orb for 16 exp.

You can kill 3 mines in 18 shots for about 2 exp, or take 135 damage.

Plus what Yoshi said. They are not even close to the same scenario.

which is why it needs to be fixed in another way either dmg wise or hp wise because its not the strategy thats blown its the character hence the reason for the switch in 1.5 the two switched roles because they more propely fit each others role.

I'm not saying it has to be switched i'm just sayin the character needs to be changed not just messing with its hp or dmg to fix its problems. More hp means takes longer to kill. More dmg means it can hurt faster and thus win anyhow. I believe this is where the spawn change comes in. After the change i'd like to see the mine capping reconsidered.


eh they all have there drawbacks and advantages once again the problem isn't the stratgey its the character. Rine is too strong. the capping wouldn't be a problem if he wasn't able to do so much. Which is why i wrote my last sentence above the quote.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on May 3 2009, 6:51 pm by killer_sss.

If it was a 1v1, sure the rine can block, cap easy. If you take the hits, then run back for heal, rine can capture then. That's where teamwork comes in.Your allies can stop him capping while you heal, you run back, injure him ill he heals, then try capp then, rinse and repeat until someone finallly capps.

Yes, while you lose the other two warps and then when his teammates come to help, you possibly lose all 3 and the game.

In the finals of one of the tournaments on MT a +3 (which actually does less damage than +2 until 4 upgrades) and mines Marine held and won the middle against two of my teammates. I got beat to a 2v1 at another gate, and we lost in short order.

Minecapping was overpowered as hell. The marine's damage has actually been significantly bumped early game, so he's still a powerful threat, he just can't capture and own you at the same time anymore.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Feb 24 2023, 12:35 pm by Decency.

which is exactly the problem. Instead of fixing the rine they destroyed part of his spell and only made him stronger. Need to do opposite fix the spawn making them a threat and leave mine capping as it was a valid strategy.

How is that a problem? He's moderately stronger in DAMAGE early game, but on the whole he's much weaker due to the loss of minecapping.

I see what you mean, but I still prefer old vers and 1.5.

hmm lets see since hes stronger at the begin means he can rush ahead of other chars faster. I do it all the time when i get a powerful char. if you can out exp your opponent in the begin you have acess to better spells. That is why.

Here's what I have so far:

Those are the MUSTS, not the shoulds or coulds.

Aside from these bugs, I personally feel that 1.4M6 is the closest we've been to a stable, balanced version in quite some time. The only thing I'm not really too happy with is the Marine. I think that he could use a slight strengthening to be on the level of the other heroes. Also, perhaps an L3 damage boost. I need to do some mathematical comparisons there.

So I can say I wrote these down...
Mutant L3: 16 Lurkers * (25 + 2x) * 2 hits = 800 + 64x normal
Light Mage L3: 16 Dragoons * (23 + 3x) * 3 hits (didn't check how many, really) = 1104 + 144x explosive
Mech L3: 8 Tanks * (70 + 7x) = 560 + 56x explosive
Spec Ops L3: (75 + 8x) * 3 hits = 225 + 24x concussive ... does the versitility compensate? Not really.

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on May 6 2009, 3:44 am by Mini Moose 2707.

I can probably fix Volt's L1 for ya...

But I'd have to start on mine first lol.. haven't done anything

EDIT: I was reading your changelist, and you said you'll remove p12 dragoons. That is a bad thing, as p7/8 spawns dragoons, and paralyzing spells give them to p12.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on May 6 2009, 7:02 pm by UnholyUrine.

I feel that the new bat is terrible...

grenade stun is very short, yet it takes a while to set off on enemies. I think that the stun time should be lengthened by a small amount because a lot of characters and run from stun, manual attack, or cast other dmging spells around it, plus it takes time to run up to heroes. While this isn't really bad, it just adds up a bit.

l2 is okay, and in some way it was better that the previous tear gas, since the effect stays with the opponent, but now it loses the ability to stop enemies/cannons from attacking, not to mention the doubled mana cost. Although, I don't know how fast it drains mana (since I've never been hit by it) I can't say for sure it's value. While this also isn't much of a crucial change, it doesn't seem to be as effective as before.

l3 is somewhat okay. The damage is good if you hit them directly with it, but a lot of the fast players can dodge around the attack (same goes for l1), making this spell mainly effective for only some enemies.
Dropship really fit bat much better, ability to fly ghosts around to nuke, and prolonged stuns. Since bat isn't a very good PvP

Since ghosts now have to run around without dropships, making them less effective as well.

In summary, l1 and l2 felt a bit redundant (stun or slow), and are mainly useful against some heroes, but still lack damage. l3 is basically good against some heroes, and ghosts are a lot more nerfed. Assuming both opponents have the same skill, I could only imagine both mages falling to the bat, while most of the others complete annihilate bat. I don't mean to criticize and whine a bunch, I just feel that bat needs some spell changes to be more balanced against more enemies.

Since the character's name is assault, I think he needs more assault-like spells, more about rushing and getting close to make attacks (since he's a firebat) rather than stunning to go make a few hits, only to have them run away after the stun.

I think assault needs a damaging l1 or l2. If grenade was kept as l1, it think it should still stun, but instead of killing spawns, it spawns 3-4 firebats. This way, it can still kill spawns and give you the exp, and also the ability to dmg heroes.

A damaging spell could instead spawn 8-9 firebats around nearby enemies (rather than spawn on yourself) to trap them for a shot. This would make a good rushing, close-in assault spell, maybe good for cannons too. A spell like this would be more guaranteed to hit than warrior's l2, but does less max dmg, since it only only hits once or twice.

An alternative to the spell just mentioned, could be to warp to nearby enemies as well, having a dash spell.

A base-assault spell may be good too. (This one would require you to rename mech's l1 cannons) (maybe for an l2?) Creates 1 unseige-able seige tank that can blast away at cannons, and is permanent until it is killed, or you relocate it's position by recasting the spell. This would allow assault to slowly break into a base, yet it could be easily killed by heroes due to low hp. Upgrading it, would mean lack of upgrades for your firebat and other damaging spells, so it probably won't be upgraded much.

Also for split upgrades but a high-damaging spell close-assault spell, you could have wraiths constantly appear, attack, and be removed above the firebat, like a 'minigun'. The range is fairly good that you don't have to be RIGHT next the enemy, but you still have to be close. Since the wraiths appear one-by-one in a row above the bat, some heroes won't take all dmg if they run early, and the bat slows a bit from the wraiths spawning on top.

Obviously, none of these changes have to be made, but I still wanted to share my opinions.

Flash, I think that you're missing some of why the bat IS good.

For one, he can stun l1, which is a big plus considering his upgrades. Also, if he l2's someone and has high mana, he can continue stunning them with l1, while they cant retaliate b/c of lack of mana.

Also, his l3 gets the same type of ups as he does, so as he splash kills spawn by himself, they get increasingly stronger. Not to mention the fact that it traps a lot of heroes pretty easily, in my opinion.

I think he was pretty balanced in m4, and i dont think this has changed that. The only problem I have is that the spec. ops' l4 is the dropship... Srsly? I think it is wayyyy underpowered for a l4, even though it can kinda stun against non-air-hitting units and that he can cap top with it. I was actually thinking that maybe his l4 could be to summon in a dropship loaded with rines? or just a single water demon as a companion, with like +1 ups. This i think, follows the idea of spec. ops kinda bringing in reinforcements or such. Idk, thats just my opinion.

I know that dropship is now spec ops's new l4, but it seemed to fit much better as assault's l3 (even if it isn't as theme-fitting). While you may have enough mana to keep casting a stun grenade, it's fuse is relatively long compared to it's short effect duration. Making it harder to cast multiple stuns. Also, many of the heroes can force attack you through the stun, or run out of it.

I also realize that firebomb get's the same upgrade type, but the spell is much more defendant on who you are fighting. Fast units like ling, vult, and stimmed units can dodge the scourage easily by running in one direction, then randomly running in the other direction before it explodes- or sometimes just running in one direction. In an open area, you usually have to be hit in the center of the firebomb, or else you only get hit by about 3 bats, and you just move away from the mass. This spell is mostly effective against slow units, and mostly to mildly effective on medium-paced units, which is dark mage, assassin, medic, light mage, archer, and volt. Many of these characters have a counter that requires much less mana. Light mage has the light barrier, assassin can escape, volt can use magnet. Versus medic, the outcome is similar to against all heroes, depending on how the medic plays.

@ FlashBeer:
- The L1 has a 60 pulse (trigger cycle) fuse with a 45 pulse stun. I can't really change the numbers much. Dark Mage had the permastun Dark Orb (provided she had 25 mana) before 1.4M and I learned my lesson from it - we're not going back.
- The L2 drains the mana all at once. L2 is a great combo with L1 or L3 (if you have the mana) You should definitely try it some time as it really evens the playing field against faster units.
- Dropship + Nuke is ridiculously unfair. The Ghosts themselves are stronger (though less mobile with the loss of dropship) because of the increases in starting energy makes them able to cloak much faster.
- I understand and do agree that Assault does a lot of concussive damage that can make him less effective against heavier armored heroes (Mech, Archer... Volt is shields, not so much)
- Assault is already one of the fastest levelers as he typically kills both enemy and allied spawns with splash as they fight. A competent Assault is almost never at the bottom of the XP list by his own fault. He doesn't need any help leveling.
- You have some interesting spell ideas, but I still want to test out the current Assault more.

He was only halfway there in M4 and definitely not on the level of the other heroes... the rest of the changes were necessary to give him that boost.

A potential 240 pulse stun (~20 real-time seconds) that can be divided into 60s as you like, stun with range, plus immunity to a majority of the heroes. I think that you're selling it short.

You just described an issue for 15+ other spells.

While I don't think that the grenades should have permastun, it wouldn't be as unfair as maelstrom permastun.
I suppose dropship + nuke with cloak is unfair against some heroes...

It just feels that assault is more of a stunner/grinder, than a PvP attacker or a base attacker. I think it would be interesting to see him as a base-assaulting type.

FlashBeer's ideas are always good.. but always misses the mark by a little. :C

Your tank idea won't work unless you want us to change Mech's L3 forever. Unsiegable tanks is only possible of we remove the siege tank for Mech's L3.
Your other idea of the damaging grenade has already been implemented in v1.5.. altho it is wraiths...but Firebats would probably be a better idea.. but may be too OP for v1.5's Assault (since it still has Dropship with bombs, and stronger nuclear ghosts due to Phantom)...
Here's an Idea.. rather than Stunning with the Dropship.. maybe it will spawn ~8-10 firebats instead!... maybe that'd make it better
Altho a better name other than "Carpet Bomber" would be needed. What'd u guys think? =D?

Not quite, just make seige mode enabled rather than researched, which leaves seiging available for mech but not for cannons.
Although, assault could maybe have seige mode researched so he also has a heavily armored tank that assault or maybe his nuclear ghosts could enter to drive past bases to attack heroes, or drive past spawns to nuke bases. The units that enter the tank still remain yours (although the vision of your units off map may not be as pretty) so when you tell them to move anywhere on the map, they move in the 'tank cockpit' and exit the tank immediately. Maybe sounds a bit complicated for everyone.