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Temple Siege v1
Jul 10 2008, 8:31 am
By: ClansAreForGays
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Apr 27 2009, 3:55 pm ShredderIV Post #1881



Another problem with the battle tanks that you guys didn't put forward is their speed vs. the time between their spawns. Although your opponent may only have one factory at a time, because they're so slow, you can still easily be attacked by 2 or 3 at a time, especially if you couldn't kill more than one in a run. I am personally in favor of scrapping the battle tanks altogether, or simply reducuing their damage. Another problem comes when they get to your base. cannons don't even come close to stopping them, and their unit AI makes them attack any hero that runs out to fight them, so once they reach your cannons and build up a little, you're basically done for and can't even exp off of them anymore.

As another note, It might be favorable just to scarap all the building units too, such as mystic fighters, ect. I've never seen anybody use them, adn with them not working like that anymore, you would have more freedom to use them for other purposes.

As a final note, could you possibly make it do that dm's curse hits summoned units like it would hit a hero, so it curses them? barring the mael/storm way fro dm to kill summoner's lings, which is extremely hard to pull of without the summoner still killing you, he has no way of countering summoner in the slightest, in addition to his slow speed, which the summoner easily beats him in.



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Apr 27 2009, 5:29 pm Lt.Church Post #1882



sadly i havent played much lately, but i want to :P anywho people are always complaining about summoner being imbalanced in 1v1 and 2v2 but why not just make it so summoner has a lower minion cap in smaller matches, like 1v1 he has 4lings, 1ultralisk, 8IT; 2v2 he has 8lings, 2 ultras, 12IT or whatever the caps are, but you get my point and i think we all know the real problem in smaller matches is the massive amount of lings.



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Apr 27 2009, 5:45 pm Decency Post #1883



It doesn't really matter, he only needs 3 lings to own the exp race.

One thing that I suggested before that could be done would be to allow players to control all spawn lanes even if not all 3 players are there.

Another option is to shrink the game. In a 2v2, remove all middle neutral buildings including both team's middle spawners. In a 1v1, remove both team's side spawners and both side warp gates.



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Apr 27 2009, 9:33 pm Iceman16 Post #1884



Quote from name:FaZ-
Yes, that makes a huge difference, because those matchups are not inherently imbalanced. Still, it's a 1v1 scenario for which Temple Siege is NOT and has never claimed to be balanced for. If the game is reduced to such a 1v1 by eliminations, consider it good planning by the team with a summoner or the otherwise advantageous match-up.

For your examples:
- If you use Medic vs LM, obviously the LM is hugely countered by disable and lack of mobility. (A teleport would fix that and make this matchup even, however.) This isn't true for any other characters.
- I'm not sure which side you think has the unwinnable advantage in Warrior vs DM... A Warrior is definitely countered in the PvP matchup but a DM can't really hit a base at all, even extreme late-game. I'd say a smart warrior (mana) would probably win that match up easily, in the long run.

The difference in 1v1 is that for the most part you can choose to avoid PvP conflict if the matchup isn't in your favor. The game is more boring that way, but at least it's still players doing the fighting that matters, not computer allies.


So yes, you can reduce the game to an essential coin flip to solve the issue of a 1v1 matchup that can't be won... is that really a better solution?
Could you stop taking what is being said too literal and look at the point for once? The HEROES aren't just examples, the ENTIRE situation is. I'm trying to explain that reavers are good for the game and all you do is argue that 1v1 isn't balanced and all the small things that REALLY don't matter at ALL to my point. I really am trying to be patient but you spend time trying to prove a point against something that I really did not want to lead to and tried to stop in my post.
"Remember this is only an example so don't bother trying to tell me "but the summoner can just swarm the factories which would mean staying at the temple would be pointless".

Replace the bolded part with anything you have said. Please stop before it turns into another spam-fest.


Quote

Another option is to shrink the game. In a 2v2, remove all middle neutral buildings including both team's middle spawners. In a 1v1, remove both team's side spawners and both side warp gates.

Quote from Iceman16
I request a 2v2 version with only two lanes (probably take out the middle lane) so some heroes like the summoner don't have the double lane advantage.

I have asked for this several times in the past, but stop saying that summoner is unbalanced in 2v2. It's frustrating for people to complain that it's imbalanced when I play games against people who have clear counters or have taken anti-summoner action but just whine about how unbalanced it is anyway. Even one game I was restricted to one lane for the entire duration, and once I killed the Warrior he only complained about how imba summoner is in 2v2 and in 3v3 it sucks. My xp was at the same level as the warrior and I clearly stated that its L2, L3 and L4 all can prevent the zergling's attacks. Needless to say I was banned the next game for disagreeing with him. It seems everyone has this mindset about summoner because they don't know how to counter it.



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Apr 27 2009, 10:35 pm SlyAcT Post #1885



Quote from Iceman16
[quote=name:FaZ-]
It seems everyone has this mindset about summoner because they don't know how to counter it.

For some people using/countering summoner is very hard to grasp properly. Thus leading people to think summoner is OP.

It would be great if players who get owned watched replays to learn how to use/counter units, rather than complaining that a certain unit is OP or ban other players....

I hope that the people making modifications to TS understand that just because certain players are getting owned by "summoner, medic, ling, etc" does not mean that they need to be changed.

I feel that 1.5 represents to many things being changed for the sake of 'change'.
There are however many sick ideas in 1.5 & I do enjoy playing it; but its got nothing on M3.

Oh and its just a game :stfu:



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Apr 27 2009, 11:01 pm Decency Post #1886



Quote from Iceman16
Could you stop taking what is being said too literal and look at the point for once? The HEROES aren't just examples, the ENTIRE situation is. I'm trying to explain that reavers are good for the game and all you do is argue that 1v1 isn't balanced and all the small things that REALLY don't matter at ALL to my point. I really am trying to be patient but you spend time trying to prove a point against something that I really did not want to lead to and tried to stop in my post.
"Remember this is only an example so don't bother trying to tell me "but the summoner can just swarm the factories which would mean staying at the temple would be pointless".

Replace the bolded part with anything you have said. Please stop before it turns into another spam-fest.

I have asked for this several times in the past, but stop saying that summoner is unbalanced in 2v2. It's frustrating for people to complain that it's imbalanced when I play games against people who have clear counters or have taken anti-summoner action but just whine about how unbalanced it is anyway. Even one game I was restricted to one lane for the entire duration, and once I killed the Warrior he only complained about how imba summoner is in 2v2 and in 3v3 it sucks. My xp was at the same level as the warrior and I clearly stated that its L2, L3 and L4 all can prevent the zergling's attacks. Needless to say I was banned the next game for disagreeing with him. It seems everyone has this mindset about summoner because they don't know how to counter it.

Your point, as you've stated, is that reavers add to the game by preventing unwinnable matchups.

If you'd read my post (and previous ones), you'll see that I respond to that point in multiple places as well while also countering the examples you provided as hypothetical scenarios. If you want me to attack your reasoning, and not your examples, you'd have to give reasoning in the first place. All you've given thus far is those (invalid) examples and your "point" which I've already addressed multiple times.



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Apr 27 2009, 11:04 pm UnholyUrine Post #1887



Okay, I think it’s time I chipped my time in and give an all out description of my own map… CAFG, please use this on your first post (without this sentence). This will also be the first time the story of Temple Siege will be released (obviously, the story’s made after the game :P).

Temple Siege
By: UnholyUrine
Terrain for v1.4 by: Mneox
M versions by: Mini Moose 2707
Tournaments host: ClansAreForGays

STORY

In past times, early civilizations struggled to survive. Resources were scarce, and groups must constantly travel to find new areas to live. Wars over territories were often, and would scar families and children both physically and mentally. Elderly and children were often left behind.

One child became delirious after the lost of his parents. He claimed that he has found a way to save all the violence, a new resource to tap into. He believed that if they had built a Temple, angels will descend and provide them with food and shelter, aid them in battle, and revive the dead. The villagers ignored him, but he continued to boaster the fantastic Powers of the Temple. Soon, with the limited food, the villagers used the excuse of a mental illness and deserted the young child.

Angry and unwavering, the child took off and, as if possessed, started building the Temple. No one knows what happened afterwards, but they were almost certain that the boy will starve or be eaten, and hopefully will be happy to see his parents again.

Almost a year has passed, and the people returned to their original site, still starving, and losing to the continual battle for food. And then they saw it. A magnificent structure towering above the trees, seemingly as enormous as a mountain, stood at where the child was last seen. They looked closely at the Temple, and engraved on its side said “Temple of Heroes.”

Suddenly, a strange aura glowed through the villagers. They all immediately felt stronger. Scars were healed, and certain people strangely entranced by its Powers. However, “where was the boy?” asked a man. At the very moment, a woman screamed. They rushed to see what has happened. On another side of the temple, marked in blood, said “I had the power to bring fortune to you, but you did not believe me. The fortune does not belong to you, and the Temple’s Powers will only bring death.” … The child was never found, as if he has risen to heaven using the Temple as the gateway.

Initially, no misfortune was brought by the Temple. It was rather much the opposite. The villagers became strong, and several had tapped into the Powers of the Temple. Those few that can gain abilities that were almost magical. Some had the ability to bring fourth the healing powers of the Temple many miles away from it, while others were able to focus the energy and produced shockwaves that stunned or destroyed their enemies. The village grew, and after a few generations, the people have almost become oblivious to the shocking message engraved by blood on the Temple of Heroes. Almost.

Several village raiders became missing. With the Powers of the Temple, the people of the Temple, as they have coined themselves, were nearly invincible, so they didn’t understand why they did not return. Another raid group was sent, and after a few days, a man returned, heavily bleeding. This was when the people became aware that the legendary child actually built two Temples. “Yes,” said the dying man, “we were able to get close enough to see the looming Temple. Its shape and size is *cough* is unmistakable. They also have th-the Powers…”

From then on, the two groups knew that they both had the same Powers. Inevitably, magnificent battles were brought. The people of the Temples concurred other colonies in order to use their men to battle each other. The war raged, and deaths were insurmountable.

After decades of war, both sides were still stubborn. Even with the Powers of the Temple, their resources were diminishing, and so were their numbers. Yet, blinded by the evil that has been injected by the Temple, they fought on. When all were lost, there was one final battle. As both sides raced to each others, swords and spears in their hands, arrows covering the sky, they were prepared to meet their death.

When, all of a sudden, the tip of the two Temples emitted a great blinding light. The earth shoke violently, and rocks and trees started to crumble. A great sound was heard throughout the battlefield: “You have suffered enough for your previous deeds, and I will not tolerate any more deaths. The Powers of the Temples shall never be used again.” Then suddenly, the ground tore apart from the continent, great waves dragged the land towards the ocean, along with the people and its Temples. The great lights bended and focused onto the tip of both the Temples. The lights met at the middle, creating a shining nova of mysterious energy. Slowly, the aura from the people evaporated and drifted into the nova. Everyone suddenly felt famished, and weak. Many couldn’t lift themselves from the armor that they were wearing, and those that tapped into the Powers were immediately deprived of it. After taking the entire aura from the people, the nova emitted a final blast of energy that shocked the entire island. The people vanished.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Apr 28 2009, 4:58 pm by UnholyUrine.



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Apr 27 2009, 11:37 pm ShredderIV Post #1888



Magnificent... Truly magnificent...

Also, @iceman, I agree with you, as I have experienced noobs complaining about summoner like mad also. Even in 2v2 or 1v1, summoner is not rigged at all, especially when you consider all the counters to him. Also, early game summoner can be shut down ez, and I have actually seen games where summoner has only 6 attack and defense ups by endgame. And even if he gets 2 lanes in a 2v2, which is unlikely since it is hard for him to farm near an enemy hero, how is this ne different from lm reaver double farming?



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Apr 28 2009, 1:46 am ClansAreForGays Post #1889



I was hoping I could finish my own TS story I've been working on, but you beat me. Can't wait to read what you came up with.




Apr 28 2009, 2:03 am UnholyUrine Post #1890



bleh now that I look at it again it's not as good as I wanted it :P....
Altho I only provided the background story.. or the Origin of the Temples.. I didn't do the story for the temples right now :P... so it is still up for grabs XD



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Apr 28 2009, 2:35 am Demented Shaman Post #1891



Quote from UnholyUrine
bleh now that I look at it again it's not as good as I wanted it :P....
I agree with you. It sucks.



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Apr 28 2009, 2:56 am Moose Post #1892

We live in a society.

Quote from Iceman16
Could you stop taking what is being said too literal and look at the point for once? The HEROES aren't just examples, the ENTIRE situation is. I'm trying to explain that reavers are good for the game
Can you specify exactly what someone can prove to convince you otherwise? You won't seem to entertain any general argument and you explicitly forbid all specific examples.

Quote from Iceman16
It seems everyone has this mindset about summoner because they don't know how to counter it.
They're matched only by the people who say the class is terrible because they don't know how to play it. Well, actually, that's more of a Dark Mage thing, but Summoner gets it too. :P




Apr 28 2009, 3:46 am Riney Post #1893

Thigh high affectionado

If angels are reviving the fallen, cant you make a liveless mode yet so you have to destroy the temple? I find a lot of players asking why there are lives to begin with.



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-- Updated as of December 2021 --

Apr 28 2009, 6:05 am ClansAreForGays Post #1894



I liked it more than I thought I would, but I would definitely chuck out the entire last paragraph. I'll share a small twist tomorrow when I have regained my ability to think clearly. Basically I think the power of the temple was dispersed through all the lesser creatures, which explains why you get more 'temple powers' grinding away at them.

...I'm never gonna get to that SC card game now




Apr 28 2009, 6:27 am Iceman16 Post #1895



Please don't put that in the pre-game briefing.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Apr 28 2009, 7:37 am by Iceman16.



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Apr 28 2009, 7:49 am Jack Post #1896

>be faceless void >mfw I have no face

lol @ iceman

Anyway I think that the summoner is looked at as so powerful because most people know how to counter it, as is already stated, but it almost always wins the exp race and I've seen it at the stage where it can beat an assassin 1lingvs assassin, which is pretty powerful. The counters aren't widely known or used, such that I've been in games where summoner is not allowed as a choice, and random is also disallowed, because people get pwned by it so easily. I do think it is a little overpowered, and could easily be weakened by removing the attack speed upgrade, but still be powerful enough to be good. Meh then it would be change because people can't counter it, which happened to the DM at first.



Red classic.

"In short, their absurdities are so extreme that it is painful even to quote them."

Apr 28 2009, 5:06 pm UnholyUrine Post #1897



Okay, CAFG, I've removed the last paragraph... You're free to put the story on the present Temple Siege :P

@Urine let's see u do better :C
@Dark Marine it's way more fun with 3 lives... a pro can be as wreckless as he wants for 1-2 lives.. lol it's kinda like Hockey.. in the first/second period, the players can be all out and fight each other to tire the other team... (or they can play conservatively and THEN go all out in the last period.. w/e)

@zany it's been changed back to 12.



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Apr 29 2009, 2:18 pm o0MaXX0o Post #1898



WOOOOOO IM OFF BANS THE BAD GUY IS BACK HAHAHAHHAA. Anyways....

SUP ICE :).

-Shredder: Some units cannot counter battle tanks but usually any well rounded 3v3 team can kill them and feed easy, if you can't well you are pretty bad. Iceman and I have never died to reaver cheese. As far taking out battle tanks, and other buildable spawn units. Thats a pretty noob idea sorry...especially since some match-ups will take forever without them. If you cannot beat a simple battle tank (Especially 1 war factory LOL) then just stop playing....The fact that your saying you've never seen anyone use buildable spawn units just means you haven't played anyone good. This is not flaming, or putting anyone down. This just fact some games (against good people) can come down to spawning units vs one another. Recently Iceman and I played this LM that could combo L1 and L3 perfectly, I was a bat and and Iceman was volt. Supercharge volt, died in one L1 L3 combo. The LM was pumped at 21 ups on attack, what did we do? Just spammed litterally 17 golem tribunals on him since he was UNAPPROACHABLE. It was gg. Spawn has its uses and fatal drawbacks. Its a strategic device used to clinch victory, not a step toward victory. If you are losing to spawn units all the time just give up seriosuly.

-Summoner is overpowered lol? Wow, this is just so funny to me seeing people complain about things like this......I havent lost to a summoner in a pretty long time, considering they are pretty linear and predictable. I dont know how many times guys have picked 2v2 summoner and got owned because they are so easy to kill. If your complaining about summoner 2v2 then just stop playing, seriously justt stop. If you complain about them 3v3, lol, then dont even play anymore your just so bad.

-Why does everyone complain about LM Reaver farming...LM is the WORST HERO IN THE GAME...give the guy a break seesh. Its not that big of a deal, at least let him have one advantage...man. Also just because i say HES the worst hero in the game doesnt make him a BAD HERO. But in my opinion he sucks, not bad, just sucks. Tho his L3 is GODLY!!!

-@ What SlyAct said, really well said I totally agree.

Post has been edited 6 time(s), last time on Apr 29 2009, 8:41 pm by Doodan. Reason: Argument starts here - removing begninning



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Apr 29 2009, 2:56 pm Pigy_G Post #1899



Quote
-Why does everyone complain about LM Reaver farming...LM is the WORST HERO IN THE GAME...give the guy a break seesh. Its not that big of a deal, at least let him have one advantage...man. Also just because i say HES the worst hero in the game doesnt make him a BAD HERO. But in my opinion he sucks, not bad, just sucks. Tho his L3 is GODLY!!!

You only say this because you always counter a LM with a firebat, and you only say it's l3 is godly because it's the only spell that can hit you in a dropship.



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Apr 29 2009, 3:33 pm Pigy_G Post #1900



So why doesnt he just l3 you as mech while you are trying to get out of a giant circle of goons.



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