This is why DM cannot beat a bat, Ready?

-Mana bat L1 makes it so DM cannot touch him
-The DM Cannot Kill Carpet bomber effectively at all
-Stun + web = Drained. Then I come out and Kill you.
-DM L2 you say? Well Fbat can manual through L2. Stun + Manual. GG.
-Awww Man you L4 me? Well I just use My Carpet bomber to scoop me up.
-Dang You L3 Me? Well I use Carpet bomber to scoop me up, No mana but hey im safe.
-Crap, You maeled me. Oh well, 1-800-Dial-L1 please. Or just Stun you till mael wears off.
-You base guarding for nuke, thats cute, L2 your Dark orb and cloak gg. No NRG for mael.
-I will train in the same lane as you, so you cannot level because my splash owns your training, not to mention L1 you all day.
-Did i mention I can kill your orb pretty much anytime i want?
-Did i mention you cannot kill me when im in my bomber?
-Did i mention you cannot kill me because of L1?
-You wanna be a wiseguy and Feedback my sair? Ok CB you and stay right there while mael wears off.

Any questions?

P.S: Thank you clans at least somebody has some sense

He only made one good point, so all you really had to say was
The one thing I will say is feedbacking the sair is more effecftive than you let on.

I'm not talking about 1v1, because you weren't either. You said DM doesn't counter Firebat, and in 1v1 it probably doesn't, but who gives a shit. DM counters Firebat very well in a team game.

Lolz. In team games its even worse. Stun you with CB+drain then leave you to the wolves. Nothing you can do except hug cannons. gg. Seriously, you think Bat doesnt assist better than a DM your crazy. Stun+Drain then another stun you die to basically everyone. gg dm.

Hey guys I don't mean to bud in.. but in V1.5.. the ghost don't have cloak.... so no cloaking...
EDIT: Also, don't forget the new ED... it is an extremely good counter for Summoner =D
and also, it is extremely hard for the summoner to do multiple lanes now.. due to the new spawns. I've played as summoner and it is really difficult.
Also, I'm pretty sure Summoners aren't invincible at the temple... that was the thing me and moose agreed on... since spawns don't attack the defiler anyway...
EDIT: Oh it IS invincible!! well better change that!

You couldn't just permanently set ghosts' energy to 0%, or to 100 energy if you wanted feedback to kill them?

Urine i just playtest 1.5b for the first time and some things need 2 be fixed:

-I do and dont like spawn leader system. Though the north canyon needs bigger lanes because regular spawn always clutters at the canyon. This can be a gamebreaker when u need to mass spawn say vs summoner,but the canyon wont permit them through.

-Engineer, just wow, way OP'd.

-Assault, I didnt see anyone play him well, but judging from WHAT i can do with him, hes pretty op'd as well.

-Spawn leaders rape melee units so bad, engy and zealot being the exception.

-New spawn makes a whole lot of clutter.

-Mech glitches galore.

-New spawn gimps big units so bad, especially that damn north canyon.

-Need bigger lanes.

-Spawn behavior is wonky, sometimes they passed me or the enemy by without an attack, pretty rare tho.

-Built Spawn Lane selection is a bit wonky as well.

-Maybe this is a trigger i do not know about but, if i say build 5 assims in one go i will get paltry amounts of money, then after two rounds of collecting it starts to give normal amounts of cash.

-Lurker i was pretty impressed with, passed my expectations but still needs work.

I like M3 better still, but great job urine, im sure you know about these glitches or other wonky mechanics. It has potential, but needs to be reworked. Though one definite thing you need to work on is the terrain it needs a medium sized overhaul.

-Peace

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Apr 6 2009, 9:19 pm by Mini Moose 2707. Reason: Flaming

1 thing that i liked that maxx said was the fact that assault was op with what you COULD do with him. I think the problem is that even though you can, It is extremely hard to use him to his full op advantage. You'd have to be extremely skilled at microing, since, for example, in his l1, for a farthur-away opponent, you would have to use the spell, move it to them, and keep it on them, while moving the assault within attack range, all at the same time. I also think that the engineer is still op, simply because of the amount of dmg he gets per up. +9? he can then easily do over 200 dmg, which, coupled with stims, is what makes him most oped. I also think that his l4 mines being invincible couples on to that, along with the fact that he can control the bunkers he builds, so he can exp without even getting hurt, or even being at risk for a surprise attack. I suggest either lowering dmg or taking away stims, and making mines for l4 uninvince, or making the drone uninvince. I don't have any other ideas on how to fix it. I also have to wonder if you were playing an older version, since mech was so glitched, because I was pretty sure urine fixed all those, last time I played with him. I also agree with the terrain glitches. There have been many times that lanes just arent wide enough, and it is WAY too easy for people to egt blocked in behind spawn on many levels. also, if anyone counters bat, its definitley not the dm, unless she uses curse, which the fb can usually run away from. If anyone counters him, its definitely mech. Think about it. Can't irradiate him, ghost bunks have half dmg on him, fb himself gets half dmg on him, mines are useless against vulture...

On a side note, I have still never been able to combo lms l1 nad anyhting, maybe because i was playing m4. The thing is, all the spell units have the same psi cost, so it doesnt make sense that if you l2 first that the dragoon takes up the psi. I've most definitley used l1 then l2, and the dragoon just sits in the spell area up top, until l1 runs out, and then it uses l2. I have, however, seen people combo his l1 and l2, but maybe in earlier versions? I myself have absolutely neve been able to reproduce this combo effect, which makes lm less effective.

Also, as another note, summoner should not be majorly nerfed anymore. I think he's fine now, and i think people are generally just good at using him. Archer, for one, completely combats summoner with l1, l3, and l4. I might, however, suggest either a decrese in the number of lings available to him at once, or a decrease in their ups. Many summoners also never get above their l1, and just mana and upg whore the entire time, which I think defeats the purpose of the game...

Also, not sure if lm's four corners is still, in but that needs to be changed. All too often he's beaten because he's in a choke point and NO reavers spawn because of terrain. Then what? His l2 is then useless.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Apr 6 2009, 4:36 pm by ShredderIV.

@ Max: you've prbly played an older version or a version that someone tried to mess with...
As far as I know, I have fixed all the mech's problems...
I know the terrain is clunky, which is why a new terrain's gonna be inputted.. but it's not done.. and the old one wasn't by me anyway XD.. (I actually think I need someone to help finish the new one...)
There is nothing wrong with the assim's... maybe someone's been killing them off.

@Shredder: Don't throw out random things!!
- Firebat gets +6 dmg.
- Mines ARE uninvincible.. after the spell is done. (may not be in the version that's flowing right now)
The new Engineer is supposed to be very defensive... It may be a bit OP at the moment, but I haven't had a chance to see anyone use it well yet.. I have already decreased bunker/tank's armor n hp a bit... Firebat's dmg (24+6) may decrease to 24+4... depending on balance testing later on...
- From what the triggers are showing, you're able to do L1 AFTER L2/3/4.. as I think L1 uses a different deathcount. I'll ahve to double-check.. It is true that you can't do L1 and then L2/3/4.. but u can do L2/3/4 and then L1.
- The summoner's zling cap has already been decreased to 9.
- I'll fix Lm's L2... no worries.

I dislike the spawn leader system, all it does is make games take longer and completely rape summoner, How is a summoner supposed to effectively level with marines shooting him down? If you go close to cannons marine pulls you towards them, if you hold pos rine kills. If you go far from cannons your own spawn gets kills and you get less xp, the marine on YOUR side also gets kills which lessens your xp. LM also gets pwned, most LMs (Not me) get under 5 regular attack upgrades and save the rest for reavers, with +3 your going to do under 35 damage, this takes a ton of hits to kill a marine, not only will the marine dock your hp for easy enemy kills, but you have to spellcast to reasonably kill him, losing mana.

Maxx, in a team game, DM can easily assist a kill on firebat, all he has to do is mael and feedback any sairs that you summon while an alli comes and rapes you, if you L2 his orb you wont have an l1 out in time, not to mention range can shoot over web and you cant pick up your bat when it's maeled, he can snare your dropship so it's very difficult to escape. Everytime you feed a sair you get like 30 xp for yourself, and a large boost for your team. DM completely counters nuke, it can storm, snare, mael and feedback. If you try to l2 he can just move the orb away and use the DM. If you pick up your firebat while L4ed you will spawn a crazy amount of broodlings for the DM and he has easy farming material.

Sorry to offend you unholy, I really like your map and it just seems like if there isn't glitch's, theres balance issue's, if there isn't balance issue's theres errors, if there isn't errors there is glitch's. We don't have a solid version to play. As soon as we get something decent someone points out the tiniest error and the whole thing gets changed. Sorry you don't want me as a tester, your decision.

I'm glad to see I'm still hated by 90% of tsers out there, it makes people try harder when they vs me, I even get shit talking competetion most of the time, I love you guys.

By the way, once when I was summoner, at my base a DM l1/2/l3ed me and I had no mana and was a dead man off my temple, I found quick salvation by buying a probe and teleporting to my temple, I could see this being used in lots of situations, I reccommend making it so you cant buy a probe when an enemy is nearby like the teleport beacons or teleport to a place near the beacon. This also fixes the problem if being unable to buy a probe if you are full healed, so you dont get reset to a low HP.

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Apr 6 2009, 6:32 pm by Pigy_G.

Sry for spewing random things... Its prolly cause I was playing unupdated versions, since many hosts don't dl the new versions. I'm also jus trying to help so pls don't be offended if I miss something.

A lot of my stuff was also in response to maxx's comments dude, so they weren't all random.

It's okay Shredder, I wasn't offended at all :S..

Pigy However, I was... but it's fine.. I'm glad that you like the map a lot... and your comments there are good.
I've played as the Summoner.. and I was against Mech, Firebat, and Lurker... my teamate was Psion and Medic.... And guess what? Altho I couldn't PvP anyone early game, we were still able to win, even tho the odds were drastically against us XD... With the new build, It'd be wise to use Swarm, and now the Summoner being out of the temple and assisting his goblins are very important...
I couldn't have won if I just did suicidal missions with my zlings...

I'll see into the probe thing.

And as for a solid version.. you've just gotta be patient :S...

So, how are these people testing the new map when it's not uploaded? AND, since I already know the answer, can you send me the map? Tired of reading, must play. -.-

I think you guys are crazy. The terrain is very well balanced. South team taking the bases reduces their grind exp based on the clash speed and spawn rate. The top base even has better gank terrain to counter a base rush by south. I'll bet you all every mineral you have that you will hate any new terrain created for this map.

Summoning multiple Sci Vessels and Siege Tanks are really the only op things the Engineer can do. 1 Sci Vessel is enough and removing the Tanks altogether wouldn't hurt. Especially since the engineer's L4 handles defense effectively anyway.

Assault's L1 is weak. You guys are overreacting to an ability that just about any class in the game can dodge easily. On the off chance that they actually hit you you always have your own abilities to use. The duration of the stun is so weak it's not even funny. Carpet bomber blows. Even as a transport it blows.

Summoner needs higher life for his zlings, but they need to be limited to his location and not able to leave. Remove the Adrenal Glands upgrade. Limiting the lings to 9 is still +18 fastest attack in the game. That's way higher than any classes attacks. Hell it's comparable to the Archer's L4. Spawn the lings with 43% health of 180 during Spawn2.

Closest I've seen a summoner end a game was against me playing an Archer. He got my base down to about 35% and then I walked into his base and killed it in 3 L4s. So stop whining. it's not even close to being Op. It never was, and, I'll bet based on your reactions to this class that it will never actually get the chance to be.

I think I'm just slow on this, but do most of you people play on USWest/East? Just wondering.

East, although TS is originally from West.

i love the fact how everyone is commenting on changes and shit especially the ones that think they are all that and they havent even played 1.5 hardly. 1.5 and M have had so many changes that they are really seperate games beyond the basic idea.

and to all you who wont play all these new versions how do you think they will get better without testing? I mean seriously all you do is complain about this or that. This accomplishes nothing. Hence the reason why i don't think either one of Urine or Moose wish to make a perfect M3. All the temple siege pros would flock to that.

You may not like Change but change is constant so get use to it.

And please keep comments pertaining to 1.5 in 1.5 and those to the original in the original thread. Thats why there are two threads.

To unholy You need to just ignore some of these people and not worry so much what they think about your changes. they just don't understand the concept of a beta at all. The only way to find your bugs/balancing errors is to realease your changes so it can be tested. Granted you can do like private testing but as for getting to things you have not seen you will need other eyes. Don't let others discourage you from completing your masterpiece.

Also just a thought not sure if it would work but i have yet to see nexus be used even though its a great tool. i think this is due to its high cost and the fact that its not hard to kill. I think a good way to fix this might be to make it invincible. granted you would have to keep this in mind with the new terrain and make sure it could not be used to easily block stuff.
just a thought.

id also like to throw my two cents in on the engineer's refinery. i think its quite a pain that he gets a 70 armor assim for the same exact price as the regular assim. his only draw back is time to build it and the off chance that someone can kill it they get a bit more reward for killing i believe. i think it would be better off with 35 mins to cost and maybe even 80 armor but idk.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Apr 9 2009, 6:40 am by killer_sss.

Because someone is wrong in one point does not make them constantly wrong in everything they say.

honestly i don't know why you bother you don't even play 1.5 and until you do or learn to read something all the way through and not just bits of pieces theres no point in trying to talk to you.

Btw Volts L2 has been nerfed in 1.5 so it appears not everyone agrees with your oppinion. it switches between 2 and 3 dcs. As for L3 i could go either way either leave as is or take away about 20-30 mana *less than it does now* i see sides for both and have said so in the past.

* =edited

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Apr 9 2009, 11:11 pm by killer_sss.

He's saying you need to play it more so you can make good judgement and truely evaluate things. I agree, before you start bashing a map you need to actually know how it works.