This is just another problem that could easily be solved if spawns were actually able to do something besides die.

Less and more powerful spawns will make the game more strategic, by far.

They aren't getting kills. The spawns aren't dying because they're walled in and not moving.

Amusingly enough, being walled off and not moving is something besides dying.

There isn't much that can be easily done. I would just say consider it a dick move like manual TK and make it instant DQ from competitive/tournament play.

Fewer/stronger spawns is an option. But, in reality, the heroes would be there helping the cannons to fight them off. I don't really want to play a TS where the opener spawn is able to defeat the strongest stationary defense building with ease.

Post has been edited 4 time(s), last time on Dec 3 2008, 2:39 am by Mini Moose 2707.

I think we're throwing around the word strategic here more carelessly than I used to with nerf. Making something more strategic is making it require more strategy. A strategy is just a long term plan to achieve a goal. It's safe to assume now that when we say something has more strategy, we are saying there are more open strategies with this one than the latter.


Here faz- you are saying that stronger spawns give the game a greater number of open strategies, but I wouldn't agree. I'd say there are just as many thought out plans for victory in a game with weak spawns, as there are in a game with stronger spawns.

Much of the game's balance is dependent in spawns being very easy to kill. If you change that small 5% of the game to make spawns useful attackers, 75% of the rest of the map must be altered to avoid adverse effects. Changes so far have been in baby steps(easy to adapt between versions), this would have to be a gaint leap with everything changed altogether.

"Commander" type spawns would be nice. Adds slightly more strategy to fighting spawns.

The occasional "High Executor" Type units would be cool.

Hmmmmm, having randomization to throw in a Hydra/Goliath/Dragoon/BATTLETANK on occasion might make things very interesting.

Clans, do elaborate. What else would have to be changed by making spawns more powerful? The only thing I would think that would get out of hand is how slow the EXP gain would be, which could be fixed rather easily. As for "more strategic," the only real strategies right now are ones that lead to PK's in the long term. Everything else is just screwing around, it won't help you win. That would allow base destruction as another very feasible attack strategy.

Moose, I said nothing about the lowest level spawns being able to take down cannons "with ease". Right now though, you can spawn them literally FOREVER and they will never take down a single cannon. Heroes being right there helping them take down the cannons is the point, it would require an opposing hero for defense, or you would begin to lose map control over a period of time. Giving the broodlings 14 damage, 100 life, zerglings 16 damage, 150 life, etc. Plasma shields/armor on cannons should be no more than 5.

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Dec 3 2008, 4:12 am by FaZ-.

increase spawn's hp dramatically! and cannon damage higher. this way spawns can actually absorb some damage and with cannons higher damage heroes can't just run in and out of bases like nothing because cannons would actually hurt them. this way they have to wait for spawns to come to take the hits from the cannons.

I find cannons powerful enough as it is damage way, I think giving them more armor and HP would be good though.

good Idea also Maybe add a neat trigger(just a idea) that this elite form of spawn has a trigger depolyed when a enemy is near. Like spawn two scouts that each do half of the elite damage kinda like a dual strike or a random gernade when you get close.



bad Idea there fine as they are. you could raise cannons to 100 damage and 4k. There still be ways around it. then people would bitch about lowering it and raising it. lets just keep it simple and the good game it is right now.

THOUGH!!!
you know them hidden defense turrets and flamer turrets that are hidden?
well we could set one on each main base warp gate. OR another Idea when you take over a side (bottom or top outpost). you could set a flame on the entrances or different sports just to add to a more foritfied base) Nothing strong just to make it look more cooler and more worth taking over.(even though they are )


-Dalton

Summoner's toughened Zerglings are one of the most obvious problems... though I suppose if we cut the upgrades on Zerglings to +1 it might work out. But, then Mutant's L2 might be a bit screwed over...
DM's L4 would also be much more powerful.

Spawn flood of upper-level spawns is already a valuable option, even though it appears to be viable in the late-game. That said, I have personally flooded even a Special Ops player and his temple to death. (this was before the Temple HP/Armor change and Battle Tanks, too)

Most classes already can't without a few HP upgrades unless they have other abilities to allow them to get through. (Mines, Dweb, Swarm, etc.)

The thing is... I think that Broodlings are SUPPOSED to suck because they are the first spawn. Early game is when you should be out in the field trying to level up. The reason I have cannons killing them in one hit is so people cannot camp their base's cannons for easy XP. Hmm... but people can just walk out of Cannon's range and fight the spawns there for easy XP. If spawns are stronger, they'll be able to do that less often because they'll have to heal more often. They'll get some XP while camping within cannon range though... last-hit micro in particular will lead to good gains... which I don't like. It's a tough pro and con choice to make.
Maybe the upgrades to spawns should be on a daily basis and upgrade spawn level every time day starts... just throw on some levels on other additions after Hydra... (next level = the same Hydra spawn + a BATTLE TANK?!)

Like it.

I like that idea too.

Maybe...
But that would change the game speed a lot.. With higher spawns, heroes will gain level higher because of increased Killscore. And the Spawn Upgr becomes virtually useless (tho it's pretty useless now..... eerrr heheh)
Right now, the game speed is just about perfect.. It is slow enough to divide into early game/mid-game (kinda...)/and lategame (depending on how fast sm1 gets L4).. If we up it.. it may become too fast... It may be okay for us, cause we're pro and we've played and got used to the game.. but for pubbies and others, it may be too fast for them.
Plus, i wanted this map to have loads of thinking behind it, so that building spawns isn't the only way to win (which is why they were so weak at first)..

If you can get accross the cannons, you can upgrade ur spawn level and then direct them to kill the cannons. Marines + heroes are enough.. but Zealots are more than enough to take down the cannons. Considering cannon's cost.. it really isn't too imbalanced. Just make sure you don't let the other team take over all the assims... ** WAIT! I just said that i don't want one way to win, and it sounds like building assims the only way to win..... Solution?: Maybe increase exp earned per assim killed?... Or more cash per assim killed?

In the end tho, it'd be good to experiment with the evolving spawn per day time. lez try it. Besides.. moose only needa alter 1 number in 1 trigger XD

good point urine.

Funny guy.

Check this out. Me and CAFG rush Hydras ASAP and look what happens!

Yeah, spawns rape if you crank them up to Hydras ASAP.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Dec 3 2008, 6:00 am by Mini Moose 2707.

I've honestly never even seen Hydras as spawns, wasn't aware they did.

Granted, you beat newb Red who upgraded spawn number with his first two civs and didn't find his spells until 3 minutes into the game, and a really bad Volt, who didn't get a single attack upgrade the entire game. Try it against a real team, you'll be stuck against good players because of how ridiculously faster than you they'll level.

Okay, watch the second replay, they get a good few thousand XP out of it.

Well we can see how pros deal with it when the tourny starts *cough* http://www.staredit.net/topic/5307/ *cough*

Again, against poor players.

Green took 15 minutes and 1500 EXP before he got lurkers, when you were massing hydras. Does he understand the concept of splash damage...?

After they both had 40+ defense upgrades, either could have run in and taken out your spawners in about a minute while the other defended, effectively ending your chances at winning. Purple never should have left spawn, he absorbed damage and was not pullable. Green could have had player kills on you guys EASILY if he had good game sense. Neither player got his level 4, even after 3500 experience, when they would have been enormously effective. Green went after your assimilators while his temple was getting pounded on. Green probably could have taken out your temple in the time he spent fucking around, he would have done over 100 damage per hit, at a rate of 4 attacks per second. That's 24000 damage a minute, and he didn't even upgrade efficiently. If he had gotten his level 4, you didn't have a prayer, the ultralisk would have been doing a TON.

The only thing that shows is how exponentially more powerful Hydralisks are than the other spawns. They go from not being able to do shit to defenses, to barely being able to do shit after a long period of time, to raping everything.

Look at the damage per hit succession of the spawns: 10, 12, 15, 16, 43. Huh...? If that wasn't bad enough, the 43 is ranged, allowing even easier massing.