Staredit Network > Forums > SC1 Melee Map Projects > Topic: How to make 128x128 4 player maps?
How to make 128x128 4 player maps?
Dec 15 2009, 8:30 pm
By: Super Duper  

Dec 15 2009, 8:30 pm Super Duper Post #1



Everytime I attempt to make a 128x128 4 player map, everything is always squished and I can never fit all the mains, expos and nats.

So, here are some basic questions I must know. I've made 9 4 player maps (and counting) but every one is always squished and I decide to scrap it.

How do I fit all the mains, expos, nats etc.?
What symmetry options do I select when making a 4 player map? XY? If I select XY then I cant make the mains the same size, which creates a minor imbalance.



None.

Dec 15 2009, 10:02 pm 13Stallion Post #2



-Try using a bigger map size
-check X,Y and XY symmetry(all 3 boxes) to make all 4 sides even



None.

Dec 15 2009, 10:10 pm Super Duper Post #3



1. Almost all of the 4 player maps are 128x128
2. Looks awful.



None.

Dec 15 2009, 11:46 pm Dem0n Post #4

ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ

Use rotational symmetry. I can't tell you how to do it because I suck at it, so hopefully Ex will come and enlighten us all. :)



Memes gather, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the memer on the walls. I am the shield that guards the realms of memes. I pledge my life and honor to the Meme's Watch, for this meme and all the memes to come.

Dec 16 2009, 12:04 am Excalibur Post #5

The sword and the faith

Quote from 13Stallion
-Try using a bigger map size
-check X,Y and XY symmetry(all 3 boxes) to make all 4 sides even
STALLION:
If you do not read these topics you are being suspended from the melee section. You are giving detrimental advice for the second or third time now and have demonstrated not only that you do not know basic English, but that you know even less about making melees.

See these? Read them. Its very evident you haven't. Another post like this and you're out of here.

You NEVER use X+Y+XY and you NEVER use a size over 128x128 for melee play. You have not read the stickies and that is not allowed.

Quote from name:Dem0nS1ayer
Use rotational symmetry. I can't tell you how to do it because I suck at it, so hopefully Ex will come and enlighten us all. :)
Dem0n is correct.
Rotational symmetry is like making two XY maps inside one. With only XY checked, you make two sections of four at a time. Its very hard, very complicated, and I'm not even good at it myself.

I made a tutorial video just for you guys that I'll be putting on youtube, it covers 2p XY maps because no one can seem to even get those right. After that I'll try and do the 4p XY rotational video.




SEN Global Moderator and Resident Zealot
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The sword and the faith.

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Dec 16 2009, 1:53 am Super Duper Post #6



Sounds interesting. Give me the link to both when they come out via PM :)
Oh, while we are talking about PMs, your PM space is full.



None.

Dec 16 2009, 2:10 am CecilSunkure Post #7



Quote from name:Dem0nS1ayer
Use rotational symmetry. I can't tell you how to do it because I suck at it, so hopefully Ex will come and enlighten us all. :)
Well the difference between rotational symmetry and x y xy symmetry, is that rotational symmetry creates 4 identical "pieces of pie", whereas x y xy symmetry creates 4 pieces of a square that all mirror each other over both the x and y plane.

To try to give you a visual: in order to create a map with rotational symmetry, the only mirrors are the top left and bottom right sets, all directly tangent corners of the map are not necessarily mirrored. So this means that you create a single piece of your map: a single corner. This corner can be the bottom left, bottom right, top left, or top right. From here you construct the other three identical sides, but they aren't mirrored to the first; they are rotated either clockwise or counter clockwise from the first piece.

Take a look at this image:



This image isn't mirrored over a line of symmetry, however, you can draw a line from the top left to the bottom right and cut this image in half. After that, you can rotate one piece onto the other, and they will be identical.

X Y XY made maps have all four corners mirror each other, while rotational symmetry uses identical (but rotated) patterns.

Note: If the map is two player, you can use rotational symmetry with only 2 "pieces of pie", but if you have four players then you would want 4 identical pieces. The above picture only has 2 "pieces of pie", but it gets the point across of what rotational symmetry is.

Here is a better example of rotational symmetry:



You can see that this picture has no mirrors (unlike the galaxy), but still has rotational symmetry; each third of the picture is identical, and is just rotated 120 degrees from the last third. This is what you would be doing with your map, just with fourths instead of thirds.

So like I said, the only identical parts of a 4 player map with rotational symmetry, would be the diagonal mirrors. You can take advantage of this, and use the xy button to create 2 sides of your map at once.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Dec 16 2009, 2:19 am by CecilSunkure.



None.

Dec 16 2009, 3:23 am Marine Post #8



Quote from Excalibur
...you NEVER use a size over 128x128 for melee play...

@Excalibur: Are there any exceptions to that, for example, an 8 player melee? or a 6 player? Because if you never used over 128x128 for any melee, that'd make things really squished for big melee games.

@Cecil: Isn't rotational symmetry the same as just checking off X, Y, XY and simply making each section the exact same?

@Excalibur [again]: Another thought; can any melee map be asymmetrical or does that not work out so well? 'Cuase here's my thought: An asymmetrical map doesn't require the XY or X/Y tool bar, so you can customize the size of each area and easily fit things to make it not so compact. Is that wrong?

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Dec 16 2009, 3:28 am by Marine.



None.

Dec 16 2009, 3:56 am CecilSunkure Post #9



Quote from Marine
@Cecil: Isn't rotational symmetry the same as just checking off X, Y, XY and simply making each section the exact same?
No. This also applies to chemistry, in which isomers are not considered identical, though they are mirrors of one another. This mirroring results in different physical properties of the isomers, even when the structure is mirrored and formula identical.

X Y XY creates four corners of the map that are mirrored to one another, not identical. Rotational symmetry creates identical pieces of the map, which are just rotated into different positions.

However, it is possible to have rotational symmetry that is also mirrored.

Similarly, all square are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. Except, not all mirrored symmetry is rotational symmetry.. And not all rotational symmetry is mirrored.. :P



None.

Dec 16 2009, 3:59 am Marine Post #10



How do you apply rotational symmetry to a map on SCMDraft 2.0.8? Is it a button or do you have to do it manually? :hurr:



None.

Dec 16 2009, 4:03 am CecilSunkure Post #11



Quote from Marine
How do you apply rotational symmetry to a map on SCMDraft 2.0.8? Is it a button or do you have to do it manually? :hurr:
Well you can use the XY button, which will allow you to make two corners at once. The other two, I'm assuming, just take time to make as the exact same.



None.

Dec 16 2009, 4:13 am Excalibur Post #12

The sword and the faith

Quote from Marine
Quote from Excalibur
...you NEVER use a size over 128x128 for melee play...
@Excalibur: Are there any exceptions to that, for example, an 8 player melee? or a 6 player? Because if you never used over 128x128 for any melee, that'd make things really squished for big melee games.
Maps for 6+ players can be larger but they're very hard to make properly. I really don't recommend absolutely anyone in this section even attempting it.

Quote from Marine
@Excalibur [again]: Another thought; can any melee map be asymmetrical or does that not work out so well? 'Cuase here's my thought: An asymmetrical map doesn't require the XY or X/Y tool bar, so you can customize the size of each area and easily fit things to make it not so compact. Is that wrong?
Positional variety is a new concept people are trying to work on where maps are different but still balanced. So far it hasn't worked really, and again, not something any of our members have the skill to do.

Quote from Marine
How do you apply rotational symmetry to a map on SCMDraft 2.0.8? Is it a button or do you have to do it manually? :hurr:
Yes, read my previous post.




SEN Global Moderator and Resident Zealot
-------------------------
The sword and the faith.

:ex:
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My stream, live PC building and tech discussion.

Dec 16 2009, 4:25 am Marine Post #13



I want to see those videos to see what you do for rotational symmetry, might be interesting if done right. I will be critizing the quality so please try to make it easy to see or I will be disappointed at your tutorial and craftsmanship for the video, as I am with ALL youtube videos since the quality is shit on that damn website...



None.

Dec 16 2009, 4:27 am Excalibur Post #14

The sword and the faith

Quote from Marine
I want to see those videos to see what you do for rotational symmetry, might be interesting if done right. I will be critizing the quality so please try to make it easy to see or I will be disappointed at your tutorial and craftsmanship for the video, as I am with ALL youtube videos since the quality is shit on that damn website...
I'm actually having trouble compressing the video to a decent size because my ISP throttles upload speed due to people using torrents. Therefore it takes me 5 hours to upload a 140mb video.

That's just the XY 2p map. I haven't even done the rotational video yet and it'll probably take forever to upload, and about as long to make since I'm not even good with rotational myself.




SEN Global Moderator and Resident Zealot
-------------------------
The sword and the faith.

:ex:
Sector 12
My stream, live PC building and tech discussion.

Dec 16 2009, 4:35 am Marine Post #15



Have you tried updating your current software or CPU? You can pretty much buy/replace each component to increase your computer's upload/download/browsing speed and increase the compression capability for videos/pictures. All at best buy or ultimate electronics. :)

You can also get downloadable software from the internet to do that for you, but the risk for viruses is probably inevitable seeing how it IS the internet. How old/new is your computer?



None.

Dec 16 2009, 5:01 am Excalibur Post #16

The sword and the faith

Quote from Marine
Have you tried updating your current software or CPU? You can pretty much buy/replace each component to increase your computer's upload/download/browsing speed and increase the compression capability for videos/pictures. All at best buy or ultimate electronics. :)
You do realize I am SEN's computer guru right? You're not talking to another kidiot like Stallion. Also you're an idiot for buying anything from anywhere else than Newegg. Bestbuy has at least a 30-70$ price premium on most parts. And that's being nice.

Quote from Marine
How old/new is your computer?
Inapplicable because I've been constantly building/upgrading it for the past 3 years.
If you're curious about my specs: E6400 @ 3.2GHz, 2x1GB G.Skill DDR2 800 @ 5-5-5-15, ASUS HD4870 1GB Dark Knight, DFI LP DK P35 T2RS, 2x Seagate 500GB, 1x WD Caviar Black 640GB, Creative SB Audigy ZS. I'll be upgrading to a Phenom II X4 955, ASUS EVO 790 and 2x2GB DDR3 1600 G.Skill Ripjaws kit around Christmas. But again, hardware isn't the issue.

Seriously who do you think you're talking to? :P

The problem has nothing to do with my hardware being unable to compress the video. It simply loses quality which is the result of the compression/codec used. I don't have much to work with on this end.
The uploading has nothing to do with my hardware or software. My ISP throttles all consistent upload traffic so that you cannot seed torrents. There is absolutely nothing on my end holding it up.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Dec 16 2009, 5:16 am by Excalibur.




SEN Global Moderator and Resident Zealot
-------------------------
The sword and the faith.

:ex:
Sector 12
My stream, live PC building and tech discussion.

Dec 16 2009, 1:39 pm Marine Post #17



Never heard of Newegg :P

And I'm talking to a) Jesus or b) Excalibur. I can't decide which. I have reached an impass :hurr:



None.

Dec 16 2009, 8:00 pm Dem0n Post #18

ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ

NEVER HEAR OFF NEWEGG?!?! :hurr: Blasphemy!

To further answer your question about asymmetrical maps, you should probably make the basic outline of your map symmetrical, but then uncheck the X/Y mirror and customize the terrain for the bases.



Memes gather, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the memer on the walls. I am the shield that guards the realms of memes. I pledge my life and honor to the Meme's Watch, for this meme and all the memes to come.

Dec 16 2009, 8:28 pm Marine Post #19



I don't live near a Newegg most likely, since I've never heard of it.



None.

Dec 16 2009, 8:45 pm Dem0n Post #20

ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ

:0_0: Newegg isn't a store. It's a website that's got the best prices on computer parts... rofl..



Memes gather, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the memer on the walls. I am the shield that guards the realms of memes. I pledge my life and honor to the Meme's Watch, for this meme and all the memes to come.

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