I hate to bring DotA and HoN into this, but it's a very balanced game, and some of it's strong points could be of use in ts....

Now, onto my points, which i have a couple of. Some may call them opinions. They are just some things i have been thinking about that may help ts balance, especially with the spawn discussion going on.

I agree with Faz. He has said a lot of good things about spawn balance, most of which have been ignored.

Spawn could use some remodeling. One of the ways DotA keeps its balance is through the way they handle spawns. It's fun in TS how the spawns change after every few cycles, but at the same time it affects balance a ton. If the spawns stay the same the whole game through and just get stronger (giving them attack upgrades and more health every once and a while), then it would help balance a lot. some classes in the current state benefit a huge amount from melee spawns, and some benefit a lot more from the ranged spawns. This means that when marines come, the balance shifts towards those who are better against ranged spawn. Then it shifts back for zealots, and once again back for hydras and so on and so forth.

Another thing is the strength of the spawns. As of now, the spawns are really easy to kill compared to their counterparts in other games. this makes splash killing a lot more viable. If they were stronger, splash killers would lose a lot more power, which would affect balance a shitton, as light mage would become even more useless, but would make balancing a lot easier, as you could tweak heroes in different ways, and make them stronger or w/e to make up for the nerf.

Yet another way to balance is where the spawns meet. With stronger spawns, they will tend to meet at the same point at every spawn wave. This would require tweaking, trying to make the spawn's strength right so that they meet at the same spot every time and such. This could make it easier to balance, as you could figure out for yourself exactly where you want the spawns to meet in every lane.

Also, the idea of being able to upgrade spawns and spawn number. This allows spawn rushing, which ruins games, and really doesnt take much skill to pull off correctly. My opinion is that it has no place in TS. spawn buildings take its place already basically. On that note: reavers as of now are really the only viable spawn building. And at that, they can end games by themselves, which once again doesnt take much skill.

My suggestion: make scaling spawn, with both ranged and melee spawn each time; make them stronger, so splash heroes arent as good and balance could be easier; take upgrading spawns and spawn number out, as it doesnt seem to do anything as of now other than acting as an easy and cheap strategy to win a lot of games.

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Note that these are just my opinions. Argue them if you want, i'm open to suggestion, but i will not listen to you if all you say is "you're wrong noob" or anything close to that.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jan 3 2010, 4:52 pm by Mini Moose 2707. Reason: Please use [line] instead of extending the page for users with s

Lol. Spawn removal has been suggested a long time ago, it's been rationally supported, and it's still in the game. That's the point, which as usual is way above your head because you're so fucking concerned about who gets credit for trivial bullshit. Here's a hint: I don't care. The other point I'm making is "hey, literally everything I said a year ago about the 'finer things' turned out to be right. Maybe you should pull your head out of your ass and lose the 'omg breakthrough in balance who knew!?' attitude."

I don't give a shit if you choose not to respond to my posts seriously, I don't think you've done so very often anyway, you generally just look down your nose and think anyone cares what your opinion is when you can't support it.

It appears what I said went over your head so I'm going to repeat myself which I rarely do. My point is you always try to take credit for everything, my point is that the idea is what's important, not who said it first. All you care about is making sure you get the credit. You say you don't care, but just looking as your your most recent posts say another thing. Again, I know I'm not in the best position to be saying this, but get over yourself.

No, CAFG, you're wrong. Faz was simply trying to say that his arguments were valid, after you said he didn't play enough to know about balancing. He was saying that his ideas on balance were the directions the balance went in, saying his arguments are valid and that he has the experience.

CAFG, you started this by saying he sounded like he was too inexperienced to know about balance. Then you got mad and twisted his words right after he proved you wrong and that his ideas tend to be in the direction the balance winds up going.

Now please go back to actual TS discussion...

Faz DID come across as 'I TOLD YOU SO WHY DIDN'T YOU GUYS LISTEN I TOLD YOU FOR A YEAR' but it's unimportant.

I hate to bring DotA and HoN into this, but it's a very balanced game, and some of it's strong points could be of use in ts....

Now, onto my points, which i have a couple of. Some may call them opinions. They are just some things i have been thinking about that may help ts balance, especially with the spawn discussion going on.

I agree with Faz. He has said a lot of good things about spawn balance, most of which have been ignored.

Spawn could use some remodeling. One of the ways DotA keeps its balance is through the way they handle spawns. It's fun in TS how the spawns change after every few cycles, but at the same time it affects balance a ton. If the spawns stay the same the whole game through and just get stronger (giving them attack upgrades and more health every once and a while), then it would help balance a lot. some classes in the current state benefit a huge amount from melee spawns, and some benefit a lot more from the ranged spawns. This means that when marines come, the balance shifts towards those who are better against ranged spawn. Then it shifts back for zealots, and once again back for hydras and so on and so forth.

Another thing is the strength of the spawns. As of now, the spawns are really easy to kill compared to their counterparts in other games. this makes splash killing a lot more viable. If they were stronger, splash killers would lose a lot more power, which would affect balance a shitton, as light mage would become even more useless, but would make balancing a lot easier, as you could tweak heroes in different ways, and make them stronger or w/e to make up for the nerf.

Yet another way to balance is where the spawns meet. With stronger spawns, they will tend to meet at the same point at every spawn wave. This would require tweaking, trying to make the spawn's strength right so that they meet at the same spot every time and such. This could make it easier to balance, as you could figure out for yourself exactly where you want the spawns to meet in every lane.

Also, the idea of being able to upgrade spawns and spawn number. This allows spawn rushing, which ruins games, and really doesnt take much skill to pull off correctly. My opinion is that it has no place in TS. spawn buildings take its place already basically. On that note: reavers as of now are really the only viable spawn building. And at that, they can end games by themselves, which once again doesnt take much skill.

My suggestion: make scaling spawn, with both ranged and melee spawn each time; make them stronger, so splash heroes arent as good and balance could be easier; take upgrading spawns and spawn number out, as it doesnt seem to do anything as of now other than acting as an easy and cheap strategy to win a lot of games.

---

Note that these are just my opinions. Argue them if you want, i'm open to suggestion, but i will not listen to you if all you say is "you're wrong noob" or anything close to that.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jan 3 2010, 4:52 pm by Mini Moose 2707. Reason: Changing Shredder's gigantic underscore line into [line] in

+hp%, however, does work.

If it's the idea that's important, CAFG, why the fuck do you keep bringing up how I keep mentioning it? Your argument falls flat on its face instantly, woops. if you want to discuss the game, I'll be here, if you want to sit around and throw insults at me, have fun.

There IS a way to get computers to upgrade. It may not be reliable yet, but I expect it could work. http://www.staredit.net/topic/5332/

The trick appears to be getting the AI script to only affect the upgrade area. Then, whenever the comp spawn goes up a level, you can give it upgrades by spawning a bunch of arbiters over a bunch of stacked computer buildings. Needs testing though.

it also only upgrades to lv3 via AI so that limits spawn cycles

moose, you messed up ultimo's post, since i doubt he just repeated my message

also, with the upgrade thing, the way it looks like it will work is that it can only research up to three upgrades. If so, you could make it, say, broods and rines, have them hp and dmg up 3 times, then switch to hyrdasm and zealots, have them upgrade 3 times, ect.

So it could still work, since you can increase hp by a percent as well.

Correct! I forgot about the edit bug that pops up when I edit multiple posts. <_<

Anyway, I think next version might end up being Semple Tiege. (Semple Tiege is what I keep saying I'll have to do when people complain things are too different from Temple Siege )

This statement sounds almost identical to Maxx. I don't care who you are or where you come from but, some of your ideas must be good. You can't say that all of a person's ideas are horrible wether or not their "Fundamentals are Flawed". I agree that you may not be able to convince a person that his or her idea isn't great because you see things from two different standpoints but, this doesn't give you a right to dismiss every Idea that person has.


Actually it isn't so much as who said it first as it is why was it ignored for so long?
I agree it is a bit tiring to here over and over I said this should have been changed a long ass time ago but, at the same time why was it ignored? Was it because noone decided to follow up on the idea and test out to see if the problems existed to be worth the change? Or did someone actually try it out a few times to see if their was a problem? I think most of the time we will find the former occurs.


I'm personally not too much myself trying to eliminate the spawn rush as it is a way to make sure your opponent pays attention to nearly everything you do but I don't want to see spawn rushes constantly which it seems we are seeing. Generally when something occurs this much it is working and there is usually a reason why it works.

In the whole spawn rush and lane changing also the top is at a huge disadvantage as the spawn from the south gate heads out the south entrance wether it is being sent south or to the middle. This is at least one thing that needs to be fixed. An extra civillian added to the total would probably help as well but may not be warrented without looking into it.

By this I refer to the bonus exp the gates offer this is why the spawn rushing works as well as it does in the current version to begin with. Before there was no exp. Now that there is it must be taken into account and thus weighed in the equation.

Also along with this I'd like to look at interesting endgame scenarios where one defender is left to defend and two or more attackers are left to attack. The Archer not only has the capabilities to hold off an attack completely but granted enough time can win thru attrition and feeding. The expiernce he gains is much greater than the expierence provided to the other team from the warp gates. I've noticed this over several games where before you could at the very least splash kill where as now that is completely eliminated if the gates go down making it extremly hard to over take the temple vs some characters.

I thought the whole Idea behind the gate exp was to eliminate the penalty of killing the warpgates. It works swell for some scenarios but when there is only one opponent left It doesn't work quite as well due to all the exp getting absorbed by one player.


the problem with this is the limits of starcraft. The Only way to make spawns stronger is to either change the unit or use upgrades to a limited use of three which for the most part won't do a whole lot in terms of changing it to be more balanced.

It is only going to give a limited benefit which for the most part will be more work than it is worth. By this statement I mean Basically you are going to screw with the xp system to slightly improve the spawn both strength and life. It would be fine if we could just modify units damage unlimitedly as this would allow to keep exp levels the same throughout the game and mess with its hp as needed only using one spawn unit.

You guys talk too much.

I've already agreed with you, Faz, about the Spawns. But when I posted that I agreed with you, then you started being negative, and I took back my praise. Anyway, everyone's inputs are valued, blahblahblah. You can't expect us to respond to all of your posts and ideas, but we (at least I) have greatly appreciated your input.

@Ripping out Summoner and Light Mage: There must be a better, competitive way of balancing them.... And, light mage being defensive isn't "entirely" broken. The problem lies at the spawns, as most people have pointed out.

I'll be coming back home soon O.o .. Tho not many of you care anymore (or ever), I am, right now, very determined to deliver another version of TS. Tho I will not discuss it here, I know I'll be needing your help, as I no longer play TS competitively. However, believe in me that I've got some ideas (currently confidencial [and speculative]) that may fix the spawn problem, and that I still have much love for the game (I don't play cause I suck at it D:, doesn't mean I don't like it).

What I really need to know right now are changes that you feel have balanced AND given a competitive edge/new gameplay mechanic to the game, and changes that you feel have balanced but reduced gameplay mechanics. Please explain and NOT discuss this here. Instead, PM me. Replays are also very valued, and what glitches have been fixed...
Finally, Moose, I want to have the entire changelog starting from the first M series (if u can, omit repeated changes, like changing marine's dmg to 10+2 then 9+3 then 6+9 and etc. ).

Thanks!!

Only 3 upgrades is fine for the zealot wave and marine wave. The other 3 waves are also used in spells, making it OP if you made the upgrades, say, +10.

I doubt i will do this, but i will help with balancing should you need it.

I feel summoner is a broken concept, and needs to have an 'influence area' where if his summons move out of it they are given to white/yellow and he must move so his influence area encompasses them to get them back. It would be resonably big, but not huge. You could also just move them back to him if they try and go out...

Free summons during zergling spawns.

To fix your spawns:


One thing that I found makes spawns a lot more effective is having a % chance for a mixed spawn to occur. Just a thought - but HS hasn't had any glaring spawn imbalances since mixed spawns were included, so you might benefit from trying it out in your next version.

How about giving bonuses based on how many of its zerglings are near the summoner? Like slightly increased mana regen or xp? ;o

its my personal opinion that spec ops should have a cap on how many mines he can have out and still be using mine drone because late game when its down to 1v1 assuming your teams sucked; it tends to turn into "lul i mine drone all the lanes and just keep feeding until i have enough EXP to push into camps and cap them then your base" its not exactly possible to beat when theres 1x set on mines on 2 lanes and 2x on one lane and 1x in your base; excluding being volt/mech.