Mines do splash damage, which still damages units underneath swarm.

It'd be a very rare circumstance if the summy had allies who couldn't clear the mines for him, but if it got to that, upgrading spawn is the best way to clear mines. But by the time rine can spam mines, it should be up to marines anyway, and marines clean up mines easy.

Oh, I misunderstood you---I thought you're talking about 'how to counter a summy'

Upping spawn is a one-shot move that you can't go back. If in your enemy teams there's even one spawn killer type hero, chances are that he'll 1v3 us!

Also, mine spam rine does not sim---full mana after 2/3 ups. The rine gets exp off ling kill.

Also rine is most likely not gonna put mines on paths where spawns pass, as he can really go kill the lings with the spawns himself, along with the other heros of his team.

As I said, it wouldn't be a common occurence that a summy has to up spawn. It'd be a desperate attempt at best. Really, his allies should be able to clear the mines.

Never use Summy for 2v2.
Summy are best with 3v3 because they can take multiple lane.

Mass upgrade your lings and you can easily go from the back and kill an enemy.

Um. Are you trolling or something?

Summoner excels in 2v2, because whichever team it's on can farm all 3 lanes, whereas the other team will most likely be feeding only 2 lanes. That's a 33 percent exp difference, and only rine or archer can manage to cut that feed difference down much at all.

oh.. i thought if you pick summy on 2v2, your opponent would be able to easily cap all the bases.
and if your team mate dies, your opponent can just reaver and summy would be useless.

^True.

2v2 Summoner is has the common perception of being an-instant win match-up, when it really isnt. Summoner + (Random hero here) is pretty much destroyed by Rine+Bat, or any combination there-of. Summoner 2v2 is usually a joke. Be smart, and you got it.

That's assuming all pick, not random.

Even then, summy should be able to cap at LEAST one base, more if his ally is decent. Theoretically, you only want 1 or 2 bases capped in a 2v2 as summy, for feeding purposes, anyway.

Assuming all 4 players are decent, summy should be able to feed better than his opponents, and should also be able to spot if the other team looks like they will up spawn. Mines in a 2v2 aren't a problem if you get speed upgrade + armour, again assuming you have a decent ally.

Dont like random, leads to gib match-ups. Those points maybe true. But 2v2, Rine + Bat is broken beyond belief. Build spawn galore, can steal all caps, both can can double exp in lane, both level fast, rine covers bat counters/weakness (Volt,Hydra,overfed summoner) and Bat covers rine weaknesses (Ling, War, DM Primarily). The singular hero which counters them both is raped by what both specialize in, spawn tactics, which happens to be one of Mechs severe weaknesses: Spawn control (His only viable spawn control mechanism, L4/Weapons Barrage, is terrible spawn control for the cost). Mech is heavily dependent on his caps/minerals for killing power. Not to mention Bat denies any farm from mech if he so chooses.

In conclusion. Summoner + mech vs Bat + rine is a no-brainer. Pretty much any summoner + (Any hero) vs Ops and Assault is a failed game. Especially since the rine can stop any attempts from summoner from retaking caps and bat can retake any cap he wants. And mid game rine stops any backdoor summy feed attempts. End game, you lose.

Ling raeps Bat, BTW.

I agree with your points, assuming it's rine + bat vs summy + most. HP ling can sort of beat mines of the rine, however, assuming rine is mana whoring to contain summy.

Fun fact: Bat + rine is more broken than any 2v2 summoner set-up, or any 2v2 set-up.

Wrong: Bat outfarms lings before rines (2x farm compared to lings 1), Denies ling farm (which drops his farm to 0), stuns ling, gets Fast L3, Bomber rapes his Lings L2, Dodges Lings L3 with bomber dodge, only choice ling has is L4 for escape mechanism, or have insane lurk ups, which armor mitigates. Also bat bomber + 160 + 3hp build negates any early+mid game options ling can do kill him. Early HP ling, is the only viable build to nullify bats antics but weakens his kill potential dramatically. Not to mention bat forces him to split ups to due to forced L4 survival. And can stun chase him out of L4. Hes a hard counter to ling. Bomber dodge rapes everything ling has.

Summary and key points:
-Bat should lane with ling to deny him farm
-Ling has no answer to denied farm
-Ling has no answer to bomber
-Forces ling to split ups
-Bomber negates L2 and He can bomber dodge lurks
-Fast bomber build (Fast L3 + 160mana + 3HP) Negates any build ling can answer with
-He can bomber chase L4 into a stun
-Ling has no answer to Nuke Pressure

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Apr 30 2010, 11:22 pm by DoLLe.

I just powerling against a lv3 heavy bat. You out dps him even w/o ur lv2, not to mention stoping fury swipes reactivley without getting hit at all by it isn't practical.
huh?

Again Bat still destroys powerling. Fast Bomber + 160mana + 3HP build. 2x farm for bat means hes getting this kit/build way faster than you would think, or anything faster than you can farm. Not to mention late game, Berserker bomb just OBLITERATING any answer you have besides L4.

Also if you arent good at timing bomber dodge, just tip the web on L1 him and auto-attack him to death. If you powerling, means less L2's for me to deal with cause you went HP route. Either way its a no win situation. Again bat can level faster than you until rines, and thats only if you went lurker route. I also forgot to mention, you dont outdps a stimmed bat while you are stunned, he just attacks faster period with stim while you are stunned. With 2-4 more stuns coming, generally equates to death.

He also effectively denies you farm laning with you, with splash and with bomber over him, you cannot get close to farm anyways. Any cut into lings farm is crippling, one stun+stim autoattacks is pretty much sending you back to the base. Bat forces you into unfavorable situations and builds, Any civs diverting into HP for ling reduces his hunting capabilities significantly, unless you manage to score a kill to compensate.

Its not uncommon for ling to fall behind in the exp race as powerling because of the diverted civs into HP. Less mana, less L1, e.t.c especially if bat is denying you farm, which he should always be doing. This compounded even more if you dont have outposts/sims. Ling is a hero who suffers greatly from a game of catch-up, Conversely hes a hero who benefits greatly from any bonus exp he can accumalate (kills, caps, pet kills) and builds momentum from it. Essentially bat controls lings tempo in terms of movement, map control, farming, and team battles

Forget about this match-up if Bat has any kind of sim support 2x farm/minerals, stim, and decent mineral returns on outposts, hes going to destroy you. Fast bomber build and he can afford to pump armor and attack freely, its over for the ling.

Post has been edited 5 time(s), last time on May 1 2010, 6:35 pm by DoLLe.

It'd be a retarded move if ling tried to feed in the same lane as bat, UNLESS the bat was feeding in front of a base he had capped. Then ling feeds between the capped base and the bat's temple. This also denies fbat a large amount of splash-feeding, which he relies on against powerling. I very rarely see a powerling lose to a bat.

Incidentally I tested ling vs medic at capping with a decent medic, and you're right, medic normally does get the cap, but if you chase meds you can get a significant amount of feed, a couple of levels at least. Against an average medic, you can beat him out every time, however.

1. Again, not smart because Carpet bomber will just stun chase you and the blasts have range and the dropship can traverse ALL terrain while you the ling cannot. you also forget bat has 2 other teamates. Leveling behind enenmy lines is not smart, once he moves in on you the others will most likely follow and attempt some sort of cutting off. Again, i stress this: Im am not talk pub play, once a skilled firebat has CB hes going to control your tempo and chase you, not to mention he'll use CB to chase and let his Ranged teamates finish you while hes just quietly leveling. A skilled bat will force a ling to catch-up, always being harassed by bomber. Bat+mech and Bat+rine combos in high levels are play are used for a reason, even bat+hydra. Bottom line is hes going to project his force, and he can be two places at once (CB and the BAT Himself).

2. Finally glad you agree, but bottom line again, not talking about pub play, and a sacrifice of one Healing Spirit to gain a cap in the long run means nothing in high levels. My point being the whole time, in HIGH levels of play, ling is a bad capper. decent staller (there are better) but horrible capper, he doesnt beat anyone pound for pound.

Get a good Micro going, and don't random unless you're really confident/pro to win a game.
play cautious, help teamates out, the key thing is not to let teamates die nor yourself.

If I really want a cap in beginning, I'll out focus fire (with w/e unit) on the hero, while getting owned by spawn and probably losing out in dps, then make sure spawn last hits me. Then run back to base and bully out the damaged hero for an ez cap. 2 lives enough for me all game.

ok, this is a really stupid question, and i havn't played much temple siege, but what does it mean to deny someone farm?

according to what i know, the broodlings spawn at both ends, then travel to the other side.
do you like, kill your own spawn or something?

It's when a unit with splash liek firebat kills their own units while attacking an enemy's. This is allowed when done indirectly from things like storming the spawn when they clash. It is cheating when flat out a+click your own spawn with fast attacking units like mech.

One way is killing your spawn. Directly attack your spawn with, say, mech bike mode, is illegal, but you can storm spawn to kill it so your opponent can't get any kills, or splash feed as volt, fbat, marine + l1, mech + l1, DM and LM with storm, and mutant with l3.

The other way is to force the opponent back behind cannons so that your spawn is killed by their cannons, denying them more feed. You can also move spawn via the civilians on the left side of the map, but that's risky unless you know what you're doing.

Another way of denying is letting spawn or cannons kill you instead of the other heroes. For example, you have 20 hp and no way you can get back to heal before being killed, but there are some nearby enemy cannons. Run into them and the other team doesn't get exp for killing you. You can do this with medics, summoned lings and hydras, dark archons, and even probes.