Eh no. If u DID random that you should go "Oh shi- we're soo countered by reavers.. we should start building our own"...

If I'm the only one who thinks that, fine, but IMO that's dumb. Instead of temple siege you get reaver siege. Plus, it wouldn't work if your opponents got randomed with better reaver killing classes (although they could still get stuck with medic and assassin)

Sorry, I usually agree with what you say, but making reavers based on the idea that your team can't counter them seems like a pretty unthoughtful plan. Should be based on the other team's units rather then your own.

I agree, but I'm pretty sure that there are 5 effective heroes that can anti reavers late game.

Well it isn't that the team can't counter it.. it's just several heroes can't counter it. But okay, it is also true that if you get a team that is heavily countered by reaver, then it feels unfair and unthoughtful on my part...

Firstly, it is expensive.. 200 bucks... you could've gotten about 3-5 upgrades with that...Since assiming is being cut down anyway, this should only get harder.. .... Secondly, the Reaver spawning building is destroyable. Thirdly, the consequences of building the reaver can make or break your game, since if it's countered, then it's really good feed. Lastly, no one has tested the other spawns against reavers.

Me n prbly moose have been trying hard to make Spawns a viable strategy in the game. So far, there has been minimal feedback...

annyways, I guess the way I structured the game, it has always been focused on PvP... But I simply wanted spawns to be a strategy, so that if you're losing, building spawns may be the answer.. Yeah, it doesn't take much in terms of "skills", but being able to think, and Gather Resources, AND sacrifice so much into building/upgrading spawns, AND win despite some counters, they deserve it...

And anyways, Temple siege isn't Hero siege either. It doesn' thave to always be killing the hero or using the hero to kill the temple

You didn't even counter my argument at all. Your basically saying "Well I don't go that build, so it's not a viable counter." Not to mention you don't even know that volt Lv2 DOES lure spawns(Don't take this as flame again, but you should really know the basics before talking about advanced stuff). And I always get my Lv4 with marine asap, your exp really starts to sky rocket after that. Basically we are only in agreement that DM and summoner are useless, unless you count the very major role summoner plays in breaking into the base to kill the spawn buildings, which it does easily.

CAFG we were able to beat reavers back in 1.4m so why cant they beat them when there hp been dropped more then half and dmg reduced alot...(forgot who was with us when we were testing it????)

Because instead of taking the time to learn how to deal with it, by trying it out themselves, they just want it banned because they don't understand.

There's nothing wrong fundamentally with the concept of spawns. There is a problem, though, with the reaver unit specifically. Reavers as a starcraft unit synergize fairly well with themselves. When the reavers are fought one at a time, most classes (not DM) can handle them. The player-stomping comes in when the reavers stop to take down cannons. It gives them time to bunch up and compliment each other, to the point where most classes with full HP can't stand up to them for very long. This doesn't happen with other spawns simply either because their damage is low enough to be mitigatable by armor, or because their range is short enough.

Don't take that to mean that the other spawns aren't broken because they're not reavers. Goons are also game enders. Firebats can make the game hell for your opponents.

One reason I suspect people don't explore spawns too much is because, like you said, they're a make or break part of the game. You build spawns, and the game is usually decided in the next 3 minutes. The problem is that they're heavily undocumented, and you have to learn which parts of the game are good by trial and error. It's RIDICULOUSLY noob unfriendly. Hell, I still get people who haven't played summoner before dumping their civs into spawn number and spawn level. When they lose those games, they don't even know why. People play reavers because they've been unstoppably stomped by them.

The other thing you have to realize is that while the price stays constant, the power level of spawns does not. Reavers start out at uberpwnage RAPE and peter out at feedwagon express. 200 minerals for what amounts to a feed is obviously way too expensive, but on the flip side, 200 minerals for uberpwnage RAPE is way, way cheap. That's the first 11 weapon upgrades, which isn't really that hard to get for an aggressive grinder. It's 7 civs. If someone on your team caps 4 assims in MT, that's 9 minutes (more in M2). The sacrifice for reavers is nothing compared to the reward if you get them out before lings.

Also, for the record:

Dragoons - just as effective as reavers, which is to say, they also end games, but at a discount. Goons can break through reavers if they're not bunched up. Bunched up reavers are still unstoppable.
Goliaths - Suprisingly not game enders, but still fairly good. I would probably skip them for goons, though, they're not much cheaper.
Vultures - Didn't use these much, I suspect they'd be fairly good against spec ops and assassin.
Medics - Utterly useless, even in theory. In practice, they have ADD and don't heal anything. Get rid of them.
Firebats - Feed breakers. These guys have ridiculously high damage, which breaks early game feed for some classes. Assassin, summoner, assault, volt, and dark mage can't kill broodlings when they're around. I liken them to drano for clearing feed clogs. Not game enders, other than denying a feeding path.
EDIT: Hydralisks - Similar to firebats. They're less effective at denying feed (except against volt), but they bust cannons better. Not a game ender.

Maybe make spawns class dependent. That is, have only one spawn building, but depending on who built it it would then turn into a goliath building, for example.

BTW, the vast majority of games I play end when the other team either runs out of lives, or they forefit because they can't win at PvP.
EDIT: Also, the longer a game goes on, the more powerful PvP becomes and the less powerful spawns become.

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Jan 20 2009, 9:27 pm by DumbMarine.

yeah, that's what I was trying to say. The game isn't ONLY PvP. It shouldn't be a bad thing to lose via spawns.

You make a good point about Reavers grouping up and pwning together, but it makes it easier for some spells to land. (yeah that's not too much of an advantage.. but i'm just throwing it out there )..

And what if it's noob unfriendly? There're different ways to win, not just spawns, so it is fine in this sense. But as you said, other spawns can own ppl too, so I don't know why ppl don't try those. I like the way that it is a make or break. I love it when the tables turn 180 degrees. It makes it feel so much more exhilarating to play TS, cause u'll never know which counter that they'll do, which spells they'll upgrade, and such. Reavers, as awkward as it is, should stay. I have addressed this issue already by nerfing it's HP, and will probably lower its dmg. I think tho it seems unfair to certain heroes (DM, medic, etc), I'll try to balance it by giving them more counters. This, I think, was really what I meant when I said "the feel" of the game...

Hmm..so the new heroes will probably be countered by other heroes that are countered by other stuff.... so it gets so complicated that it feels balanced.. wh00t!! =D =D

Ehh, anyway, I like the make or break method... it makes TS games more exciting..

I know that most of TS is noob unfriendly. There's no undo ability for things you do, and there's no real manual either, so a lot of your first games are spent either losing horribly or having someone coach you (nobody coached me). Things like heroes you eventually get a handle on, though, because inevitably you'll either get curious or inevitably get stuck with every hero at least once. First time I played summoner? Didn't know the importance of grinding. First time I played Light Mage? You bet your ass I ran out of mana all the time and ended up a sitting duck. DM? I didn't have a clue how powerful curses were and went for a HP/Min build instead. You try them, you learn, you move on.

With spawns though, exposure doesn't happen. First of all, you learn by experience how much failure it can be to upgrade spawns, so you kinda are discouraged right off the bat. Secondly, you need a probe to do it, and often the mindset in a game is that probe duty is like getting stuck with a mop and bucket when you really want to be blamOMGWTFSPLODEing people. Thirdly, everything the probe does needs, like you said, a sacrifice of minerals. I'm sure most people don't even notice that you can build things other than assimilators and cannons, but for those who do, seeing a 200 mineral price tag seems like a huge waste, especially given the context of the first two points. You're already behind in the game by doing assimilator duty, why put yourself behind further?

In that context, spawns are ridiculously noob unfriendly. The only reason I even know what the buildings do at all is because of the miscalibrated assimilator rate, and occasionally I'll get bored of having 50 armor and instead spend those other minerals experimenting.

TS is either a PvP game or a spawn game, not both as it is right now, and that's the disconnect maybe some of us are feeling. If you go a PvP build and I go reavers, well, sucks to be you, you're in the wrong game. Go play D.O.T.X if you want PvP. No, we want to be able to pick DM and actually have some fun with our enemies. We want to see assassin stunlock someone while a mutant comes in for the assist. We want archer, spec ops, mech, warrior, medic, and mutant all in the middle fighting for the gate. Suddenly, reavers come in and unstoppably own everyone. I'll admit, its funny when day comes and suddenly two thirds of the opposing temple are gone, and the other team is typing out WTF. Maybe not the funnest thing, but..

EDIT: This is all in context of why spawns are unnoob friendly, not what I think TS should be.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jan 20 2009, 11:58 pm by DumbMarine.

If you modify some spells to make it more viable for classes to end reavers, that will be better. Medic's L2 could easily "disable" spawns too, and the DM's L2 could stop them for a bit as well. With the life nerf I suppose that the Summoner's L2 might actually prove useful for once, so that'd already be a counter. It's just annoying how if your opponents go reavers and a lot of the time you can't do anything to fight them, you might as well give up, because there's no way to gradually take them down. You just die. Someone please upload a replay of them killing a well placed spawn building. The only units who could possibly do that are Assassin and Summoner, or an L4 Warrior/Volt/Mutant.

Clans, I was saying most players don't go for that build. I myself get L3 near asap as a Warrior, but I've never seen a good Mech get tank and lots of mana until very late-game, unless they were rushing for the old OP L4, in which case getting L3 would be pointless anyway As for L2, by your question mark I assumed that you were unsure, as I was myself. I'd have to test that "basic concept."

I think the Medic L4 should only heal to the unit's leveled hp rather then it's max hp. This makes the spell still very powerful, since it's a moving, healing temple, but still causes the heroes to need to level their hp. I find the full heal spell too game breaking as not only is it saving them MANY civs to use on hp (which still makes the spell still powerful if they do, since they don't have to travel to temple to heal) but also allows their civs to be spent in extra mana and spell upgrades. Most people aren't realizing that it's also technically giving upgrades besides max health. It's also incredibly easy to rush to medics L4 early game. By only healing to the unit's leveled hp, it won't break the game by the first night since they are still able to be killed.

i semi agree with ice, i think it should heal maybe 3-4 levels above their set HP, now that may sound difficult but whatever counter you use for detecting hp level all you have to do is put in another string be it DC, some units placed off to the side or switches; unless youre completely out of DC i guess then you couldnt do it, but theres alot of units not used/killable in TS to use as a DC ;|

I guess it could be used to increase your current hp if you are already at your level max. My main point is that it takes away the huge bonus they get from spending their civs for extra mana, spells etc. Max hp + extra mana/spell levels/upgrades mid game is atrociously unbalanced.

hey i'm new to this forum =]. but i've been playing TS for a while. nice job unholy and keep up the good work

I don't feel that healing people to level would really be powerful enough for an L4. Of course it would save your life sometimes, but powerwise it's really an L3 IMO.

Heal Medic to full life, heal allies to level.

Make the heal last for 12 (depending on balance) seconds. Thus, renew would in essence make someone invulnerable for 12 seconds as well as healing.

I have a suggestion that is somewhat unrelated. Sorry to break the argument.
I was playing Temple Siege today, and all the host did was shout: "every body pick random" in all capitals.
There should be an all random option that the host/player 1 can select.

It will be exactly the same as it was before if the allies get hp upgrades. Even though it feels like a L3 early/midgame, it becomes more and more powerful as the game goes on. I don't think it should be an L3, it will make further increase heal spamming. And yes it most probably should give medic full hp since medic should have no reason to get health upgrades and only has the strategy of spamming disable and heal the whole game. As I said before, changing the L4 will only change the early/midgame being too cheap, while still keeping medic at completely full power late game. It will also mean that the allies will be less overpowered since they need to spend civs into health. Although some classes need mana more then health, they can still benefit from having a mobile healer even with low hp.