Two questions:
1. Does anyone think Ensnare's energy cost should be raised to 50?
2. Should there be a Queen's Nest at which a Summoner player can upgrade energy to allow a second cast of Ensnare? (much like Special Ops' Science Facility.)

Again I realize I am not a TS player, but shouldn't a summoner, well, summon things? Why would a progressive spawn spell not be a good idea for someone who's name implies summoning? And so if that's not what hes going to get is the name summoner really fitting? Then again I have no idea what any of his current spells are, so I may be entirely wrong.

Summoners L1 is make or break (or was, I've stopped playing really), and that was rather annoying..

I don't know if I'd choose to get that Lv2 over 3 mana upgrades, or 2 even.

Q1: I'm ambivalent, but no. The DM is already hugely underplayed but good players make use of Ensnare all the time, it's the redeeming factor of the hero to me. It already has to Psi Storm too to keep up in Exp and has no consume until L4 though, so I don't think that'd be for the best.

Q2: The extra building for such a small thing seems unnecessary, unless: I still don't see why you don't just have 12 sets of buildings and give them dependent upon hero chosen. That cuts down on a lot of unnecessary units. It also takes even less locations than it would with 6, if that's the problem. 4 locations, split the buildings into quarters and use give all owned by player 7/8/Neutral, and distribute them accordingly. (If you can't give from Neutral/Tan, it still takes 6 locations.)

For example: Mech's buildings are initially White, Spec Ops's are Yellow, and Medic's are Tan. If player picks Spec Ops, give all buildings owned by P8 @ location "top 3 heroes" to Player x. Sorry, tangent, but probably worth the change, saving space, units, and buildings.


Clans, I'm almost positive that it'd be worth it. It would allow you to be efficient at surrounding even without the speed upgrade, and with it you're almost assured of a surround on the slowly retreating enemy. It can be cast while burrowed, too. If it ends up not working out good enough, I'd be pretty surprised. My concern was actually that it'd be too powerful for a Summoner L2. It's also a defensive spell, it would let him escape from pursuit if cast well.


Re: Excalibur. The summoner does summon, but having progressive spawns keeps the Summoner as a no-risk hero. He stays in the base and uses his L1 spell to send lings into the field. Most players don't actually bring the summoner out of base at all, though better players take risks with Dark Swarm, Plague, and Consume. The new L2 idea would give the impetus for leaving the base, and the L3 support spell is already in place. This would allow the Summoner, like most of the other heroes, to weigh risk and reward and choose whether or not an attack is worthwhile. Such an attack poorly calculated could result in the Summoner's death, which in the current and in a progressive spawn style almost never happens.

Don't forget, ensnare also reveals cloak/invisible units if casted on them. well summoner already has plague.. i forgot lol. But at least he has 2 ways of detecting now if you do implant the queen!

Pretty significant bug. I've seen it before but it's rare.

I died as Mech in Goliath form while casting Vulture. I lost a life and the Vulture spawned in place of me, with full HP. It's more common for the Vulture to spawn at the Temple even though the Goliath died (which is probably the same bug, except it is automatically healed to level due to it being at the temple, so it's not as big of a deal). To fix this you'll probably just need to make it so that if one of the forms dies, the Mech dies. Sometimes it happens that the Vulture is actually killed but you're still playing in Goliath form and as soon as you try to switch back you lose a life.

Replay: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ymjmmm1nonq
(Also shows how Medic is usually boring as shit until it gets L4, at which point we win.)

Yeah, I'm going to be fixing the Mech FH bug. It's caused by dying on transform. Since death will cancel out your pre-built spells before the transform triggers, the bug will not be able to occur.

lets i hope i get everybody since i don't really wana go back and quote like 5 people.

In 1.5 faz 2 drones spawn versus one also i think the mana for building was reduced a bit but not 100% sure. Yes i realize they can be killed somewhat easily but if placed inside cannons you can progressively work your way out. They start off killing a few and can gradually work out to killing all spawns if necessairy and the nydus is extremly useful with this extra exp.

excaliber yes summoners need to summon things but at the same time this is a game in which heros are competing to use spells to the best of their ability and if a summon only summons things he can sit in base and just feed until he is strong enough to either slaughter players or the temple which is pretty much what he does now with a pure L1 build.

moose i think ensare would be quite useful but raising it to 50 would hurt the dark mage more i think. I don't quite understand the second question. I take it you can track the upgrade and from there you can give the queen more energy to ensare with?

also to moose is there any way we could maybe improve the buildings to give it more of an edge for progressing to L3 or would it just be best making a hydra spawnable building from L2?

clans honestly i think an ensnare would help a ton for the summoner. Yes he will summon less with less mana ups but at the same time he can get more bang for his buck by keeping lings both alive longer and surrounding/chasing down players much easier.

is there a way to make summoner's zergling can only travel a certain distance away from the summoner? if the zerglings go outside the boundary of the summoner the ligns can be teleport back or something. this would help prevent base camping.

I can agree that Summoners still probably wouldn't get this without 5-10 mana upgrades, but you'd choose it over the old L2 and you'd get it sooner. (in addition to actually getting it) That's just the impact on paper, too, we haven't even seen how it will actually play out.

Archer has been spawning two Drones since M5. Nobody is arguing that colonies aren't effective against spawns. (until Marines, anyway.) They aren't great against players. They wouldn't be effective unless they got some ridiculous stat changes, which I don't really want to do because I want to increase the viability of using companions. If we end up with a ton of "I wish I had Drones!" experiences, I'll reconsider, but I don't foresee that happening.

This is intentional. If the Summoner is casting L2 to ensnare, he's going to be able to cast it regardless of the energy cost. It cannot hurt Dark Mage "more" because it is not hurting any other class.

Here's how it works: Units spawn with a percentage of maximum energy. When the maximum energy increases with the upgrade, the amount of energy it spawns with also increases. You find the percentage such that:
1. When it spawns with 200 max energy, it can cast a spell once
2. When it spawns with 250 max energy, it can cast the spell twice.

It is possible. I cannot see the public ever accepting an idea like this and if it were implemented, shit fits galore.

ok i am confused as hell 200 cast spell once 250 cast the spell twice when the spell only cost 50 mana????? unless you are using a trigger and shortening the target time i don't see how you can control this. it would need to be 125 to make its a cast and then two cast when upped.


as for intentional increase to ensnare meh i guess if you want =/ As for hurting more i meant in taking him down yet another notch. It may only affect one type but still be considered as more when talking about changes in general. but i guess i cant play him as is so i cant bitch right? never liked that excuse

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Mana is not Energy. Energy is not mana.
I will try to explain:

TRIGGER:
Modify Unit Energy("Current Player", "Terran Science Vessel", 45, 1, "Anywhere");

COSTS:
Irradiate: 100
Defense Matrix: 50

WITHOUT ENERGY UPGRADE:
200 * 45% = 90 energy
(One Defense Matrix, another after 10 energy recharges, or 1 Irrad after 10 energy recharges)

WITH ENERGY UPGRADE:
250 * 45% = 112.5 energy
(2 Defense Matrix casts or 1 Irradiate)

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 17 2009, 5:19 pm by Mini Moose 2707.

Wait so summoner's L2 = ensnare? I'm confused.

[quote FaZ-]
Suggested changes:

Summoner
Modify L1 max lings based on game type (at start). 1 opponent = 4 lings max; 2 opponents = 6 lings, 3 opponents stays the same.
L2 creates a queen above the Summoner. It has enough energy to ensnare once.
Modify the L3 to add both life and energy to the summoner, and make it more obvious how it works in the text.
L4 stays the same.

This would encourage the summoner to do something besides sit in his base; ensnare plus Zerglings is incredibly powerful, in addition to his consume, plague, and dark swarm, plus burrow already being highly useful for a good offensive summoner.[/quote]

first off weren't we talking about the ensare upgrade i mean thats why we were tlaking about the queen's liar or whatever the exact precise term is that makes u happy since energy and mana confuses you so much lol. You said and i quote



since ensnare is going to cost 50 energy and a queen spawns with 200 energy it can cast ensnare four times and with the energy upgrade it can cast 5 times. Honestly if you meant to talk about irradiate thats fine but you said queen upgrades and ensnare

honestly im not trying to be a dick i'm just getting confused with all that you said

Actual quote please.

Maximum * Percentage = Actual starting energy.

ah ok thats must be what i missed but i don't see anywhere what this percent is of the max. can you tell me please and btw isnt it something you can modify yourself anyhow so it can be any value?

The percentage is defined when the unit's energy is set. The Science Vessel uses 45% as I described earlier.

For a Queen casting Ensnare at 50 energy, I would use a max of 40%.
250 * 40% = 100 energy, two Ensnares @ 50 each.
200 * 40% = 80 energy, one Ensnare.

For a Queen casting Ensnare at 40 Energy, use 32%:
250 * 32% = 80 Energy, two Ensnares @ 40 each.
200 * 32% = 64 Energy, one Ensnare.

ah now that reply makes sense also lol.