[quote=name:Falkoner]Denying God after believing in him and receiving a witness of him is probably the worst, because at that point you tend to become so bad that murder is nothing. [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_chastity]Law of Chastity[/url][/quote] And the children that weren't corrupted as infants and just never believed in God, they're okay, right?

Quote from Falkoner

Denying God after believing in him and receiving a witness of him is probably the worst, because at that point you tend to become so bad that murder is nothing.

Law of Chastity

And the children that weren't corrupted as infants and just never believed in God, they're okay, right?

[quote=name:devilesk][quote=name:Tuxedo-Templar][quote=name:devilesk][quote]Well the idea behind sin as I see it is not the specific ends it produces (the 'murder' of someone, as you claim), but the overall logical outcome that comes of using it as a choice. Pride is considered the worst because it leads to some of the worst outcomes overall. But how so?[/quote] "Worst" outcomes?[/quote] That's what I'm trying to discuss here. What is "worst", and why is pride considered the main way to get to it?[/quote] Well who says pride is considered the main way to get at it? You didn't start the topic out with much information.[/quote] [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_sins]Here's yer "information".[/url] [url=http://www.google.com]Among other easy sources.[/url] If you don't have information on the topic, then either go get some, or don't reply. It's common belief that pride is considered the worst. Now the question is why?

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Quote from Tuxedo-Templar

Quote from devilesk

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Well the idea behind sin as I see it is not the specific ends it produces (the 'murder' of someone, as you claim), but the overall logical outcome that comes of using it as a choice. Pride is considered the worst because it leads to some of the worst outcomes overall.

But how so?

"Worst" outcomes?

That's what I'm trying to discuss here. What is "worst", and why is pride considered the main way to get to it?

Well who says pride is considered the main way to get at it? You didn't start the topic out with much information.

Here's yer "information". Among other easy sources.

If you don't have information on the topic, then either go get some, or don't reply. It's common belief that pride is considered the worst.


Now the question is why?

So if a person's values say that murder is just fine but lying is wrong then it's okay to murder? That's why people need religion, it sets the correct priorities. Pride leads to envy in most cases as you become jealous in your pride and you want to become greater than others, and then you begin to lie, murder, steal and other sins to gain what you want.

So if a person's values say that murder is just fine but lying is wrong then it's okay to murder? That's why people need religion, it sets the correct priorities.

Pride leads to envy in most cases as you become jealous in your pride and you want to become greater than others, and then you begin to lie, murder, steal and other sins to gain what you want.

[quote=name:Falkoner]So if a person's values say that murder is just fine but lying is wrong then it's okay to murder? That's why people need religion, it sets the correct priorities.[/quote] Scientology sets the right priorities? Voodoo sets the right priorities? It's still an individuals values, and you still fail. ;)

Quote from Falkoner

So if a person's values say that murder is just fine but lying is wrong then it's okay to murder? That's why people need religion, it sets the correct priorities.

Scientology sets the right priorities? Voodoo sets the right priorities?

It's still an individuals values, and you still fail.

Oh c'mon, the majority of the world has a set belief of values, which most religions follow and have actually created, I am not going to go crazily specific because it is too annoying.

Oh c'mon, the majority of the world has a set belief of values, which most religions follow and have actually created, I am not going to go crazily specific because it is too annoying.

[quote=name:Falkoner]Oh c'mon, the majority of the world has a set belief of values, which most religions follow and have actually created,[b] I am not going to go crazily specific because it is too annoying.[/b][/quote] Or maybe because you just can't do it. Yea, that's right, I'm calling you out!

Quote from Falkoner

Oh c'mon, the majority of the world has a set belief of values, which most religions follow and have actually created, I am not going to go crazily specific because it is too annoying.

Or maybe because you just can't do it. Yea, that's right, I'm calling you out!

[quote=name:Falkoner]Oh c'mon, the majority of the world has a set belief of values, which most religions follow and have actually created, I am not going to go crazily specific because it is too annoying.[/quote] According to Christianity, wars are justifiable murder. Religions do not specify good morals, people do. Stop failing so hard.

Quote from Falkoner

Oh c'mon, the majority of the world has a set belief of values, which most religions follow and have actually created, I am not going to go crazily specific because it is too annoying.

According to Christianity, wars are justifiable murder. Religions do not specify good morals, people do. Stop failing so hard.

Wars in defense of yourself, wars are not murder. There is a difference between killing and murder.

Wars in defense of yourself, wars are not murder. There is a difference between killing and murder.

[quote=name:Syphon][quote=name:Falkoner]So if a person's values say that murder is just fine but lying is wrong then it's okay to murder? That's why people need religion, it sets the correct priorities.[/quote] Scientology sets the right priorities? Voodoo sets the right priorities? It's still an individuals values, and you still fail. ;)[/quote] Ty Syphon. And Falkoner, plenty of more atheist based moral systems work very well. Universal utilitarianism is pretty win. I also think the categorical imperative has a lot to offer. [quote=Tuxlar]If you don't have information on the topic, then either go get some, or don't reply.[/quote] Or you could make a comprehensive topic instead of being a total dick to people who want you to explain your direction with this topic better. It's not your job to tell people if they should or should not reply. [quote=Tuxlar]It's common belief that pride is considered the worst.[/quote] Apparently not.

Quote from Syphon[MM]

Quote from Falkoner

So if a person's values say that murder is just fine but lying is wrong then it's okay to murder? That's why people need religion, it sets the correct priorities.

Scientology sets the right priorities? Voodoo sets the right priorities?

It's still an individuals values, and you still fail.

Ty Syphon.

And Falkoner, plenty of more atheist based moral systems work very well. Universal utilitarianism is pretty win. I also think the categorical imperative has a lot to offer.

Quote from Tuxlar

If you don't have information on the topic, then either go get some, or don't reply.

Or you could make a comprehensive topic instead of being a total dick to people who want you to explain your direction with this topic better. It's not your job to tell people if they should or should not reply.

Quote from Tuxlar

It's common belief that pride is considered the worst.

Apparently not.

[quote=name:Falkoner]Wars in defense of yourself, wars are not murder. There is a difference between killing and murder.[/quote] And that difference is?

Quote from Falkoner

Wars in defense of yourself, wars are not murder. There is a difference between killing and murder.

And that difference is?

[quote=name:Falkoner]Pride leads to envy in most cases as you become jealous in your pride and you want to become greater than others, and then you begin to lie, murder, steal and other sins to gain what you want.[/quote] I can partially agree with that. Pride is a root sin for other sins. A meta-sin, in other words. But is that all there is to it?

Quote from Falkoner

Pride leads to envy in most cases as you become jealous in your pride and you want to become greater than others, and then you begin to lie, murder, steal and other sins to gain what you want.

I can partially agree with that. Pride is a root sin for other sins. A meta-sin, in other words.

But is that all there is to it?

[quote=name:Falkoner]Wars in defense of yourself, wars are not murder. There is a difference between killing and murder.[/quote] You have no idea what you are talking about with war. Hitler and Germany went to war. Clearly that was to defend themself, right? 'Twas justified? There's always at least 1 side of the dispute taking the aggressive. Mutually attacking each other to defend yourself is not in defense of anything.

Quote from Falkoner

Wars in defense of yourself, wars are not murder. There is a difference between killing and murder.

You have no idea what you are talking about with war. Hitler and Germany went to war. Clearly that was to defend themself, right? 'Twas justified? There's always at least 1 side of the dispute taking the aggressive.

Mutually attacking each other to defend yourself is not in defense of anything.

I would say so, because you can have pride, as long as you are not carried away in it. Hitler had no true reason to go to war, making it an unjust war, but the people caught up in his war are not fully to blame, nor the defending countries.

I would say so, because you can have pride, as long as you are not carried away in it.

Hitler had no true reason to go to war, making it an unjust war, but the people caught up in his war are not fully to blame, nor the defending countries.

[quote=name:Tuxedo-Templar][quote=name:Falkoner]Pride leads to envy in most cases as you become jealous in your pride and you want to become greater than others, and then you begin to lie, murder, steal and other sins to gain what you want.[/quote] I can partially agree with that. Pride is a root sin for other sins. A meta-sin, in other words. But is that all there is to it?[/quote] [img=http://www.fstdt.com/winace/pics/broad_brush.jpg]

Quote from Tuxedo-Templar

Quote from Falkoner

Pride leads to envy in most cases as you become jealous in your pride and you want to become greater than others, and then you begin to lie, murder, steal and other sins to gain what you want.

I can partially agree with that. Pride is a root sin for other sins. A meta-sin, in other words.

But is that all there is to it?

[quote=name:Falkoner]I would say so, because you can have pride, as long as you are not carried away in it. Hitler had no true reason to go to war, making it an unjust war, but the people caught up in his war are not fully to blame, nor the defending countries.[/quote] [img=http://www.fstdt.com/winace/pics/shifting_goalposts.jpg]

Quote from Falkoner

I would say so, because you can have pride, as long as you are not carried away in it.

Hitler had no true reason to go to war, making it an unjust war, but the people caught up in his war are not fully to blame, nor the defending countries.

[quote=name:Dapperdan][quote=Tuxlar]If you don't have information on the topic, then either go get some, or don't reply.[/quote] Or you could make a comprehensive topic instead of being a total dick to people who want you to explain your direction with this topic better. It's not your job to tell people if they should or should not reply.[/quote] Actually I CAN say that. It's a reasonable request. It's up to you to agree with me or not, though. I can no more say you shouldn't reply here than you can say I shouldn't say that. :P

Quote from Dapperdan

Quote from Tuxlar

If you don't have information on the topic, then either go get some, or don't reply.

Or you could make a comprehensive topic instead of being a total dick to people who want you to explain your direction with this topic better. It's not your job to tell people if they should or should not reply.

Actually I CAN say that. It's a reasonable request. It's up to you to agree with me or not, though.

I can no more say you shouldn't reply here than you can say I shouldn't say that.

[quote=name:Tuxedo-Templar][quote=name:Dapperdan][quote=Tuxlar]If you don't have information on the topic, then either go get some, or don't reply.[/quote] Or you could make a comprehensive topic instead of being a total dick to people who want you to explain your direction with this topic better. It's not your job to tell people if they should or should not reply.[/quote] Actually I CAN say that. It's a reasonable request. It's up to you to agree with me or not, though. I can no more say you shouldn't reply here than you can say I shouldn't say that. :P[/quote] Or I could just lock the topic (or move it to null) because your topic wouldn't fly if anyone who didn't have a reputation in the community had posted it. It should be the topic creator's job to provide his topic's basis and definitions if he wants to make a good topic. You shouldn't bitch people out for not wanting to look up information you should be providing. If you want to continue this conversation then we'll take it to pms.

Quote from Tuxedo-Templar

Quote from Dapperdan

Quote from Tuxlar

If you don't have information on the topic, then either go get some, or don't reply.

Or you could make a comprehensive topic instead of being a total dick to people who want you to explain your direction with this topic better. It's not your job to tell people if they should or should not reply.

Actually I CAN say that. It's a reasonable request. It's up to you to agree with me or not, though.

I can no more say you shouldn't reply here than you can say I shouldn't say that.

Or I could just lock the topic (or move it to null) because your topic wouldn't fly if anyone who didn't have a reputation in the community had posted it. It should be the topic creator's job to provide his topic's basis and definitions if he wants to make a good topic. You shouldn't bitch people out for not wanting to look up information you should be providing. If you want to continue this conversation then we'll take it to pms.

Anyway, back on topic. I wasn't intent on giving this thread a specific direction, since I wanted to explore the issue in general. The worst sin in particular, which is considered to be pride, confuses me somewhat in the way that it actually is a sin in and of itself. Surely it leads to other sins, it's also considered a good thing simultaneously. What's up with that?

Anyway, back on topic.


I wasn't intent on giving this thread a specific direction, since I wanted to explore the issue in general. The worst sin in particular, which is considered to be pride, confuses me somewhat in the way that it actually is a sin in and of itself.

Surely it leads to other sins, it's also considered a good thing simultaneously. What's up with that?

Damn too active topics... I don't think any sin is wrong without being treated inside a context. Murder might be the wrong one in some contexts, or not so bad in other contexts. [quote]Denying God after believing in him and receiving a witness of him is probably the worst, because at that point you tend to become so bad that murder is nothing.[/quote] roflmao?

Damn too active topics...

I don't think any sin is wrong without being treated inside a context. Murder might be the wrong one in some contexts, or not so bad in other contexts.

Quote

Denying God after believing in him and receiving a witness of him is probably the worst, because at that point you tend to become so bad that murder is nothing.

roflmao?

[quote=name:Clokr_]Damn too active topics... I don't think any sin is wrong without being treated inside a context. Murder might be the wrong one in some contexts, or not so bad in other contexts.[/quote] Hence the question of what is "right" and "wrong", just and unjust wars, sexual assault and rape, murdering and killing.

Quote from Clokr_

Damn too active topics...

I don't think any sin is wrong without being treated inside a context. Murder might be the wrong one in some contexts, or not so bad in other contexts.

Hence the question of what is "right" and "wrong", just and unjust wars, sexual assault and rape, murdering and killing.