Staredit Network > Forums > Technology & Computers > Topic: New power supply
New power supply
Dec 6 2010, 11:09 am
By: NudeRaider  

Dec 6 2010, 11:09 am NudeRaider Post #1

We can't explain the universe, just describe it; and we don't know whether our theories are true, we just know they're not wrong. >Harald Lesch

Hi SEN,

I want to buy a new power supply.
Since I won't buy from Newegg but (probably) from Alternate due to living in Germany I'm just looking a few recommendations for reliable PSU's that would still do their job in a computer I might buy in 3 years. I'll go through this list and then get the best deal I can find here.
I would also order overseas if there's a good deal that can get shipped to Germany. Guess PSUs should be reliable enough that I'd never have to send it back.

Thanks in advance.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Dec 6 2010, 11:23 am by NudeRaider.




Dec 6 2010, 11:12 am DevliN Post #2

OVERWATCH STATUS GO

750w Corsair PSU is great.



\:devlin\: Currently Working On: \:devlin\:
My Overwatch addiction.

Dec 6 2010, 11:17 am NudeRaider Post #3

We can't explain the universe, just describe it; and we don't know whether our theories are true, we just know they're not wrong. >Harald Lesch

120€ ( > $150 ) is way over my limit, but thanks. Haven't really thought of a limit yet because I have no idea of typical PSU prices but I guess no more than 60€.




Dec 6 2010, 11:18 am DevliN Post #4

OVERWATCH STATUS GO

It's $109.99 in the US. :(



\:devlin\: Currently Working On: \:devlin\:
My Overwatch addiction.

Dec 6 2010, 11:20 am NudeRaider Post #5

We can't explain the universe, just describe it; and we don't know whether our theories are true, we just know they're not wrong. >Harald Lesch

Quote from DevliN
It's $109.99 in the US. :(
US is the cheapest market for CPU parts. Might even buy overseas for something that's most likely unproblematic like a PSU.




Dec 6 2010, 11:24 am DevliN Post #6

OVERWATCH STATUS GO

How about at Amazon? That's $137 or so, I think.

EDIT:
Nevermind, just saw your limit. :><:



\:devlin\: Currently Working On: \:devlin\:
My Overwatch addiction.

Dec 6 2010, 2:06 pm NudeRaider Post #7

We can't explain the universe, just describe it; and we don't know whether our theories are true, we just know they're not wrong. >Harald Lesch

I haven't made my mind up on neither the way of purchasing nor the price limit, so any suggestion helps.




Dec 6 2010, 2:29 pm NicholasBeige Post #8



Any suggestion that's on topic I suppose... :P

trustedreviews.co.uk
tomshardware.com
ebuyer.co.uk

These are the sites I use when deciding what to upgrade. The first is the best for reading user reviews and comments about a product, toms hardware does a bit of the same and ebuyer is very competitively priced. Although I'm not sure about it's availability in EU.



None.

Dec 6 2010, 3:30 pm rockz Post #9

ᴄʜᴇᴇsᴇ ɪᴛ!

http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/awards/
Anything on that list is a good power supply. Some are better than others.

What are your system specs? I should be able to place you in the 550W to 750W category based on what you have now/what you might have later.

Corsair makes pretty good power supplies, but their TX line is really old now, and has relatively poor performance for the price. If you want to compute in style, get a seasonic X-650.

I've been doing some research on EU prices. It seems they're absolutely terrible, and often times they are twice the price of the US on sale. Not sure if the EU has consistent sales like the US does. For 60 €, I think you'll get some low quality 550W PSUs. For 70 €, I think you may be able to grab either a modxstream pro 600W or stealthxstream 2 600W. Neither are stellar PSUs, but they do the job. The latter can handle ~660 W easily, has excellent ripple, but is missing a MOV (metal oxide varistor) which manages spikes in the power grid. I am unsure how important this really is. If it worries you, the modxstream pro has one, is modular, costs about the same, but has less voltage regulation and ripple control (80 mV vs 30 mV, note that both are within the 120 mV spec). The modxstream line has a built in limiter (actually a good thing) which shuts off the PSU at 600W, so you can't overdraw it (or damage the PSU). The steathxstreams have this configured in some other way, presumably via a current limiter rather than a power limiter. The important thing is that the PSU shuts off before it burns.

Note that these PSUs are $40-$50 in the states after rebate. Even then they're not that great a deal. The best I've seen is an Antec Neo Eco 520C for $42 and 620C for $50 (both are seasonics).

In general, seasonic and enermax make the best PSUs, but delta, fsp, and cwt aren't that bad either. There's a few more which I rarely hear about (highpower, impervio, super flower, ATNG, topower) but make some good ones. Hec manufactures Cougar PSUs, and they're based in Germany. The cougar PSUs are supposed to be pretty good, but Hec is also known for making bad power supplies ($20 for a 585W PSU means it's a bad PSU).

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Dec 6 2010, 4:36 pm by rockz.



"Parliamentary inquiry, Mr. Chairman - do we have to call the Gentleman a gentleman if he's not one?"

Dec 6 2010, 4:47 pm NudeRaider Post #10

We can't explain the universe, just describe it; and we don't know whether our theories are true, we just know they're not wrong. >Harald Lesch

No point in telling you my current specs cause its most probabaly below the power demands of computers I might buy in 3 years. Remember, I want it future proof.

I'll look into the links later.

Are there any retailers in the US that ship to EU? Payment should be no problem via paypal or other means.




Dec 6 2010, 6:01 pm rockz Post #11

ᴄʜᴇᴇsᴇ ɪᴛ!

If I know your current specs then I know what your general range is, and what the next logical step is. If you're at 200W, then a 500W will be plenty. If you're at 350W, then you'll probably want a 650+.

We can tell by what sort of performance you'll be looking for in the future too. If you know you're going to go high end (see pic at end of this post), then you'll want a high end power supply. If you know you're going to go mid range, then you want a mid range PSU. With the way that current graphics cards are going, they're focusing way more on power efficiency, since they're at the limit of the PCI-e spec of 300W (GF100 and 110 break this rule, though). AMD is doing an excellent job with power efficiency, it's just too bad their drivers are so terrible. They literally make a more power efficient and faster card, but the drivers slow them down. The 5970 (a dual card) is actually 2 underclocked 5870s, because at full speed, they draw over 300W.

You can see how the current tiers are working out now. Notice that the 5770 is 6th best, and costs $120, and is amazingly power efficient.

Most dual graphics will require 650+, but single graphics will almost never use more than 500W. The extra wattage is there for efficiency and insurance. I think your best bet is something by OCZ here. Don't get the 500W stealthxstream 2 though. It's not very good, since it's truly a 500W psu, and you can't pull any more than that out, which is nice to have a little bit of a cushion (the 600W can pull well over that much).

I don't think there are any retailers who ship internationally, other than the large corporations (which are overpriced).

I did a check on USPS's international shipping: It's $40 shipping. that means you have $40 to spend on a power supply. 100% markup isn't worth it, especially when you can get it for 150%-190% of the US price if you order within the EU. It would only be worth it if you wanted a high quality PSU like a seasonic x 650.
€150 http://www.mix-computer.de/html/product/detail.html?articleId=496783
$120+$40 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151088

You can further look around for good sites: read at the bottom of the page for EU recommendations.
http://tinyurl.com/FalconGuide

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Dec 6 2010, 6:25 pm by rockz.



"Parliamentary inquiry, Mr. Chairman - do we have to call the Gentleman a gentleman if he's not one?"

Dec 6 2010, 10:13 pm NudeRaider Post #12

We can't explain the universe, just describe it; and we don't know whether our theories are true, we just know they're not wrong. >Harald Lesch

Alright got an Athlon X2 4800+ with GF9600GT right now.
I tend to buy 2nd or 3rd gen stuff.

So I did a quick check on ebay and the ATX 750W Combat (english specs) looks like a good deal.
What I want to know is why I shouldn't buy it. Meaning what's bad about this thing which does a Corsair or whatever better.
E.g. You mentioned the ripple. Do I need a good ripple when the thing will easily be able to power everything I throw at it?

Question is, do I need a high quality (and thus high priced) PSU? I noticed the differences in the price range are really high, so I'm wondering if I couldn't buy a cheaper one with higher wattage and just not draw that much power from it.

ebuyer doesn't seem to ship anywhere outside GB and Ireland. I'll keep the others in mind for reviews though.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Dec 6 2010, 11:04 pm by NudeRaider.




Dec 7 2010, 4:25 am rockz Post #13

ᴄʜᴇᴇsᴇ ɪᴛ!

Do you need a high quality PSU? No. Not really. There are millions of PSUs in the world which are powering computer all over and do so just fine. The problem is that the cheap ones have poor quality control, are often out of spec, and sometimes even flat out lie. When they are out of spec or lie, you could end up damaging your entire system. There is a pretty bad myth that you need a really high power PSU. That is completely false. Most of the time, you use under 100 W when idling, and just over 200 when at full load, less if you don't have a graphics card. That's why OEMs can get away with cheap as hell power supplies. It's easy to make a 200 W PSU.

Should you want to learn about power supplies, you can read up:
Why 99% of Power Supply Reviews Are Wrong
Anatomy of Switching Power Supplies
Hardwaresecrets' testing methodology

There's a few things which make a good power supply. The first is the minimum specifications (found in the primary and secondary analysis in HWS). Many cheaper power supplies end up leaving out some of the more expensive parts (IE the MOV in the OCZ stealthxstream 2). The second is the quality of the parts. To put it bluntly, and generally, Japanese > Taiwanese > Thai > mainland Chinese components. Japanese capacitors are typically designed to tighter specifications and thus are of better quality. That comes at a significant price, however. The weakest component is the limiting factor in the performance (and lifespan) of the power supply. If one thing dies, it's dead. Finally, the actual performance of the PSU matters a lot, probably the most.

Ripple is measured with an oscilloscope, and it's supposed to be a flat line, but that's impossible. If you have too high of a ripple (probably in the 160 mV range) you can damage your components. The ATX limit is 120 mV for the 12 V rail, and 50 mV for the 5 and 3.3 V rails.

Voltage regulation is the actual voltage being supplied to the computer. ATX limits within 5%, most good PSUs do 2-3%. That means the 12 V rail can supply from 11.4 V to 12.6 V. Obviously overvolting can cause damage to components, and undervolting can cause crashes.

You also need to pay attention to the current on the different rails. The one you listed has 4 12 V rails. That means there are four "mini" power supplies delivering 20 A to different wires. Generally, one rail is better, but separating the rails is supposedly safer, because if one rail fails, you don't kill whatever components are attached to the other rails. Some graphics cards may require a lot of power one one rail, other times it's hard to see which rail belongs to which wire, so you don't plug everything into the same rail by accident.

Efficiency is somewhat important, but really only calculated. It's a good idea to be more efficient, but virtually every PSU now is at or around 80%, rather than 70%. The EU has much stricter (and much more efficient due to 230V) energy system, so anything you get will be quite efficient.

Finally, the power correcting factor. If it has a PFC, then the power factor is probably .99 or around there. If it doesn't, then it's around .6 to .7. having a high power factor reduces loads on the power grid significantly, though you're only charged for the power you actually use. It's a bit hard to explain because I don't understand it very well. Suffice to say, PFC is good, but it doesn't directly save YOU money, it saves the electric company money by raising efficiency. The one you linked has a passive PFC. That means you'll need to flip a switch to say whether or not it's 115 V or 230 V coming in (unless it's EU only, in which case you can't ever use it in the US). Passive PFCs are supposed to be more efficient, but I think it's negligible on computers. An active PFC means that it automatically adapts to any input voltage. There is no switch, and you just plug it in. If the PSU doesn't have a PFC, which is/will be illegal in the EU, then it will also have that switch.

A note I just found on the MOV:
Quote
Its main component is called MOV (Metal Oxide Varistor) or varistor, labeled RV1 on our schematics, which is responsible for cutting voltage spikes (transients) found on the power line. This is the exact same component found on surge suppressors. The problem, though, is that cheap power supplies don’t carry this component in order to save costs. On power supplies with a MOV, surge suppressors are useless, since they have already a surge suppressor inside them.
If you use a surge protector, you don't actually need an MOV. So don't plug it directly into the wall.

tl;dr;
Your (new) computer will draw somewhere under 500W of power. Having a good 600W PSU means good quality, high efficiency, and good stability. Having a cheap 750W PSU means bad quality, mediocre efficiency, and probably good stability. You won't notice the difference, but considering you won't and should never be drawing more than 500W of power (unless you have 2 cards or a 3 million transistor GPU), there's literally no reason to have that huge power supply. You don't gain anything from it. It's a difficult concept to realize that more =/= better when it comes to PSUs.

All that being said, I successfully used a 500W free after rebate, no PFC power supply for a long time with a more power hungry setup than you have now, and it worked fine. Chances are the cheap power supply will work for you. What you're paying for is sort of like insurance. the cheap PSU could kill your stuff much easier than the more expensive one. That's why people say not to skimp on the PSU and that's its the most important part.

Edit: I found your exact PSU, and it's got a terrible review, and it's in german: http://www.planet3dnow.de/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=373122&garpg=8

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Dec 7 2010, 4:44 am by rockz.



"Parliamentary inquiry, Mr. Chairman - do we have to call the Gentleman a gentleman if he's not one?"

Dec 7 2010, 10:01 pm NudeRaider Post #14

We can't explain the universe, just describe it; and we don't know whether our theories are true, we just know they're not wrong. >Harald Lesch

Hm... the more I read and think about it the more indecisive I become...
Isn't there something between? A PSU that hast the most important aspects but misses the some that aren't that important to me?

Maybe I should make a checklist of needs and don't needs (as far as I can judge it)

Don't need:
- MOV (we have good power lines in Germany)
- good ripple (not planning on overclocking)
- good efficiency (medium should be enough to keep temps low)
- protection from short (< 0.5s) power outages (They are rare here, so I wouldn't mind to have to reset)

Need:
- quiet (12cm - 14cm fan, medium efficiency, so the PSU stays relatively cool)
- cheap
- 600W max.
- only few protections (OHP, OVP)

So which PSUs would meet these criteria?




Dec 7 2010, 10:30 pm Vrael Post #15



Is there any reason you can't wait until you buy your new other parts, that way you'll know for sure what you need?



None.

Dec 7 2010, 10:53 pm NudeRaider Post #16

We can't explain the universe, just describe it; and we don't know whether our theories are true, we just know they're not wrong. >Harald Lesch

Well the thing is, my current PSU's fan got killed because a blade ripped off several months ago. I replaced it with an old fan I had lying around, but it has died of old age, so right now I'm abusing a case fan to cool the PSU.
Additionally I always had the impression that my current PSU is at its max with my current hardware and just barely manages to handle it.
So instead of buying a new fan I'm considering buying a whole new PSU if I can reuse it in future computer(s).

What do you think about an Arctic Cooling Fusion 550R. It has really good reviews. And seems to be very quiet despite the 8cm fan. However I'm afraid it might be too weak.

Or the OCZ Fatal1ty 550W is also in my price range. Also a little weak though.




Dec 8 2010, 4:02 pm rockz Post #17

ᴄʜᴇᴇsᴇ ɪᴛ!

you can't pick and choose parts like that. Most PSUs have MOVs in them (again, you don't need it if you use a power strip) so it's hard to find one specifically without one. Its hard enough to find a review which lists what parts it has. Many PSU companies simply don't want you to know, so they scratch off the part numbers.

Both the fatal1ty and arctic cooling fusion are good PSUs. I didn't notice the arctic cooling before, but it's got a bad review on hardwaresecrets. The problem is that the 12 V is out of spec at low wattages (where you will usually be running), along with a number of other problems mentioned at the bottom. It's too bad, because the arctic cooling is the same as the corsair vx 450 and antec EA500, except it has tremendous efficiency. How much will at 10.8 voltage hurt your components? Actually, it won't. It might cause a crash, but it's more likely that it will improve your efficiency. Components use voltage for stability under high power and high heat. When you're idling, or barely using anything at all, the components aren't stressed, and most of the time processors and GPUs undervolt themselves when not in use to save on power. And of course the review you showed doesn't have the same voltage problem. Check the drawbacks listed other than the fact that it's out of ATX spec. If you can live with those, then for 47 euros it's a fine deal.

Power supply companies are misleading you into thinking you absolutely need all those watts. If you use a power calculator (which automatically overshoots) you'll find that a remarkably high end system (i7 950 and 5870) still comes under 500W at 100% load. You can take a look at how much power you'll be looking to draw here:
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Palit/GeForce_GTX_570_Sonic_Platinum/26.html
So long as you buy your graphics card in the sub $200 range, there's no way you'll get anywhere near 500W. Most power supplies also give you ~50-100W of freeboard, which decreases over time due to capacitor aging.

Found another good one: Silverstone Strider Essential:
http://www.hardware.no/artikler/silverstone_strider_essential_500w/76258/1
Make sure it has the power connectors you want (ideally you want 2 sata cables, 2 molex cables, and 2 graphics cables).



"Parliamentary inquiry, Mr. Chairman - do we have to call the Gentleman a gentleman if he's not one?"

Dec 8 2010, 6:03 pm NudeRaider Post #18

We can't explain the universe, just describe it; and we don't know whether our theories are true, we just know they're not wrong. >Harald Lesch

Right now my GFX uses 80W max so it'll never overdraw any PSU we're discussing at the moment. But as I said, I'm buying it for a computer I will have in maybe 3 years, which makes my current system entirely unimportant for the discussion.

I can see myself using a 300W GFX and a 200W processor in a few years, unless there's components that have the same specs but are drawing much less power. But since we don't know that, lets stay conservative. So anything that can deliver around 550W reliably should be enough, which includes the 2 I listed.
I feel a little uncomfortable with your recommendation, rockz, as it just barely meets the 500W requirement. Or am I just too careful with my assumptions?

Do I need a EPS12V power connector?




Dec 8 2010, 8:24 pm rockz Post #19

ᴄʜᴇᴇsᴇ ɪᴛ!

I heard somewhere that over 300 W is not within pci-e specifications, so you shouldn't have to worry about going over. However, I would estimate that the highest you would upgrade to something like a GTX 560/GTX 470 or 5/6870 (6930?). The 470 pulls the most at 230 W max (max is not a realistic gaming number), so I'd be hesitant if you were really going to get that. If you're trying to get a 300W GPU and 200W CPU onto a 60 euro PSU, I think you're out of luck. That would be something like $400 in 2 components on a $60 psu in the states. It will work, but don't be surprised if it crashes frequently and burns.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cases/display/system-wattage_6.html
Here's a test that xbitlabs did on a 4850 with an e8600. Power draw never went over 200W. The next page details an i7-920 with a GTX 260, and the next, an i7-920 with a GTX 295 (dual GPUs). The most they got was 370W and 500W, respectively. You can also compare numbers from techpowerup's max to xbit's and you'll see that xbit's are much smaller than TPU's. I'm not certain why this is, because adding both the motherboard and the GPU nets a number ~40% less. However, he proves his numbers with a wall meter, so I believe at least that aspect.

Finally, take a look at the prime95 numbers. It's less than the windows startup for the e8600, but quite a bit higher on the i7. Certainly NOT 200W, and nobody's going to need a CPU more powerful than the i7-920 in a mid grade range. AMD is significantly less efficient though. so if you get AMD it may use a bit more.

An EPS12V connector is the 8 pin CPU power. the old 4 pin stuff will eventually be phased out completely. While you don't need it, it provides more power to the system, aiding stability.

Also, the arctic cooling 550R is a 500W power supply. The name is quite misleading. I don't know of any price search websites for electronics in germany, but perhaps you could use that to find the fatal1ty in stock at a low price, or possibly the stealthxstream 600.



"Parliamentary inquiry, Mr. Chairman - do we have to call the Gentleman a gentleman if he's not one?"

Dec 8 2010, 10:18 pm NudeRaider Post #20

We can't explain the universe, just describe it; and we don't know whether our theories are true, we just know they're not wrong. >Harald Lesch

I love your answers rockz, always so indirect, and thus leading to more questions than answers. :P
The EPS12V "aids stability" so what does that mean? In which cases would I need added stability?
I probably will go for a 4 pin connector since that is what I have right now and later make sure I still get one of the old 4 pin mobos. Did that successfully in the past with modem card slot and floppy connector. There's always some consumer grade models with old connectors.

Yeah, that's why the arctic cooling review you linked to is so bad. It's generally good stuff, but labeled wrong. They recommended another, basically identical PSU, which was called 500W.
Btw. the Silverstone Strider 500W has the same problem. It's actually a 400W PSU which can provide 450W without problems and almost 500W. But tbh that's too low for me. I'd probably limit myself too much for my future hardware.

So lets recap. The estimate is that I'll be having below 400W for my CPU and GFX combined (+ some for HDD and stuff), which makes any 500W PSU viable, right?

Having checked the PSUs in question more closely I fell in love with the OCZ fatal1ty because it has enough power, a quiet, controlled fan, everything I need and I totally love that the molex and sata cables are optional. It's great to have just the right amount of cables in my tower but still having the option to add more, should the need arise. If need be I'd probably pay €70 for it. ;)

I'll report back when I found a good deal for a final checkup.

Btw. while I know rockz is our PSU expert here I wouldn't mind hearing more from Ex or ShadowFlare or whoever for a 2nd opinion.

EDIT:
First checks show the fatal1ty might be a bit outside my price range (€80+) and the stealth is still a little over (~ €70), but I've found another model worth considering:
530W be quiet! Pure Power L7 80+ for €64. Just couldn't find a good review for it, so what do you say?

EDIT: Using multiple price search engines:
€67,35 + €4,90 = €72,25 Antec TruePower New TP-650 Pro: Lots of power, detachable cables (but way over the price limit)
€57,64 + €7,99 = €65,63 for the stealth Pro: few dozen more Watts
€57,25 + €4,90 = €62,15 for the fatal1ty Pro: detachable cables
€55,49 + €3,99 = €59,48 for the be quiet! Pro: actually inside my price limit
€48,74 + €4,90 = €53,64 CORSAIR CX500 500W Pro: cheap (but maybe too weak?)

So who's going to help me decide? :P

Post has been edited 4 time(s), last time on Dec 9 2010, 2:19 am by NudeRaider.




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