Staredit Network > Forums > SC2 Melee > Topic: (4) Jungle Blood
(4) Jungle Blood
May 15 2010, 5:29 pm
By: Fierce  

May 15 2010, 5:29 pm Fierce Post #1



My first melee map. It's a top vs bottom style map.

I'm looking for suggestions as to what I should do to balance things out. I'm also looking for a way to make it less open but not make it too narrow.

Okay so the screenshot:



So I somewhat got the idea to make this 2v2 map because of Twilight Fortress. I liked the idea of having bases close together but didn't like the fact that your natural was so close you could turtle up. I made a map that forces you to expand outside of your main so turtling will be pointless. There is also 2 ramps in between you and your ally so you can quickly help your friend out early on. I hate maps where your units have to run a marathon to get to your ally's base. I did, however, put a destructible rock in the middle of the ramps so that you have to destroy that first in order to get to your ally.

Oh and I forgot to mention.. right below (if you're at the top of the map) your connecting ramps, there is a small island you could hide a building there. The only way to get there, however, is by transporting the unit.

Any suggestions?



None.

May 16 2010, 1:06 am 13Stallion Post #2



add space terrain right on the outskirts of the main's mineral lines, to prevent reapers from being OP.



None.

May 16 2010, 1:27 am Valug Post #3



Could you attach the map? Kind of hard to see everything with the picture. Is it 4 ramps all with rocks leading to the middle "bridge" area?

The mains seem a touch too small, and the main's mineral positions can easily be harassed (like 13Stallion said). Besides 13Stallion's suggestion, another option might to be to move the mineral line to the opposite side of the mains.

The gas positions at the naturals are kind of annoying when you are defending, you might want to consider putting them on the other side or putting one on each side. At the moment is would be a pain pathfinding wise to attack/defend the naturals.

I generally don't like that there's only 2 very small ways to cross the middle, I think it would be a little too easy to camp that highground and totally secure your side. If a protoss player was so inclined, you could indefinably stop any ground pushes via force fields and turtle up. Granted, the middle is an option, I'm not sure how it would play out. Possible suggestion is to make the ramp on each side bigger, but the middle option might be enough, I'd want to play some games on it to see.

Generally, the map is very basic layout wise, with big open areas. There is only giant open-ness, or extreme choke points (ramps at main/middle). Some variety is generally a good thing, otherwise the rest of the map is just not important gameplay wise. I'm not sure the range of the watchtower in the middle, but it seems like it would not cover much, and be pretty useless.

Kind of nic-picking now, but the map lacks any man-made terrain, but is perfectly rectangular, I don't think land masses naturally shape into blocks like that. Not relevant to balance though.

Overall, I think most games on this map would come to a giant 200/200 fight with all of the money on the map mined out. Generally, there's fewer expansions then normal for most 2v2s, and it seems very easy for one side to turtle up in the middle.



None.

May 16 2010, 2:40 am UnholyUrine Post #4



Four REALLY big problems:
  • Base need a turret line behind the minerals
  • Bases are too close together, and are probably tankable
  • Space is WAAAY too open. This puts protoss in a disadvantage in SC1.. but may have a different effect in SC2.. it's still too open and uninteresting.
  • T > everything in the middle due to the tight chokes.

and this is just SC1 things that I noticed... and without Ex's help. ...
pretty bad :bash:



None.

May 16 2010, 6:06 am Valug Post #5



Quote from UnholyUrine
Bases are too close together, and are probably tankable

If you read the OP, you would have read that its a 2v2, Top Vs. Bottom map like Twilight Fortress. I don't think its relevant that you are close enough to your teammate to tank him, especially since he made it clear that it was his intent to have shared mains like Twilight Fortress.

Quote from UnholyUrine
Space is WAAAY too open. This puts protoss in a disadvantage in SC1.. but may have a different effect in SC2.. it's still too open and uninteresting.

Not really as much as a balance issue in SC2, since moving units and pathfinding is just so much better/easier. Not to mention protoss has the infamous terraforming robot to make chokes in a pinch. I agree that it is uninteresting though.

Quote from UnholyUrine
T > everything in the middle due to the tight chokes.

While tanks are good, they are not nearly as good as they were in SC1. Heavy mech play is not the most popular strategy for terran by any means and the other races have equally abusive ways to abuse the middle, namely protoss and force fields. While I agree the chokes in the middle are not the greatest idea, your reasoning is wrong.

Quote from UnholyUrine
Base need a turret line behind the minerals

Not completely sure what you mean, there is plenty of room behind the mineral line to make a turret line. Besides, the real issue with the mineral lines in the main is that its harassable by ground via reapers or just ranged units with vision. The issue with the mineral line location has already been mentioned twice anyways, no need to be redundant, especially when you aren't giving any suggestions to fix it.



None.

May 16 2010, 1:26 pm Pr0nogo Post #6



"Posting of a map (alpha, beta, or complete) is required for new threads."

Wish I could say 'topic locked,' but I'm not a moderator. :lol:




May 16 2010, 1:31 pm DevliN Post #7

OVERWATCH STATUS GO

Quote from name:Pronogo
"Posting of a map (alpha, beta, or complete) is required for new threads."

Wish I could say 'topic locked,' but I'm not a moderator. :lol:
I'll close it tonight if the map itself isn't posted.



\:devlin\: Currently Working On: \:devlin\:
My Overwatch addiction.

May 16 2010, 1:55 pm Fierce Post #8



Quote from Valug
Could you attach the map? Kind of hard to see everything with the picture. Is it 4 ramps all with rocks leading to the middle "bridge" area?

The mains seem a touch too small, and the main's mineral positions can easily be harassed (like 13Stallion said). Besides 13Stallion's suggestion, another option might to be to move the mineral line to the opposite side of the mains.

The gas positions at the naturals are kind of annoying when you are defending, you might want to consider putting them on the other side or putting one on each side. At the moment is would be a pain pathfinding wise to attack/defend the naturals.

I generally don't like that there's only 2 very small ways to cross the middle, I think it would be a little too easy to camp that highground and totally secure your side. If a protoss player was so inclined, you could indefinably stop any ground pushes via force fields and turtle up. Granted, the middle is an option, I'm not sure how it would play out. Possible suggestion is to make the ramp on each side bigger, but the middle option might be enough, I'd want to play some games on it to see.

Generally, the map is very basic layout wise, with big open areas. There is only giant open-ness, or extreme choke points (ramps at main/middle). Some variety is generally a good thing, otherwise the rest of the map is just not important gameplay wise. I'm not sure the range of the watchtower in the middle, but it seems like it would not cover much, and be pretty useless.

Kind of nic-picking now, but the map lacks any man-made terrain, but is perfectly rectangular, I don't think land masses naturally shape into blocks like that. Not relevant to balance though.

Overall, I think most games on this map would come to a giant 200/200 fight with all of the money on the map mined out. Generally, there's fewer expansions then normal for most 2v2s, and it seems very easy for one side to turtle up in the middle.

I looked at what you said and I agreed with most of everything. I added 4 smaller ramps in the middle while still keeping the main large ramps BUT I removed the destructible rocks on the larger ramps. There are some LOS blockers for the smaller ramps to "ambush" the middle.

I also expanded the map (removed the water from the top and bottom) and made the mains bigger as well as the naturals. I swapped the mineral lines at the mains to the top/bottom center of the mains. The naturals gases are now located near the edge of the map.

@devlin, I was looking for input before I released the map. I knew the map wasn't even near completion because I was looking for suggestions. Anyways, the NEW screenshot:



Ignore the start locations on the screenshot, I forgot to move them. You can download the map now and the start locations are fine.

Attachments:
(4) Jungle Blood v1.1.SC2Map
Hits: 2 Size: 534.08kb



None.

May 16 2010, 2:20 pm Pr0nogo Post #9



You don't have Rich Vespene Geysers on the rich expansions, was that intentional?

Also, I smell Pylon cheese.


(just an observation)




May 16 2010, 2:31 pm Fierce Post #10



Quote from name:Pronogo
You don't have Rich Vespene Geysers on the rich expansions, was that intentional?

Also, I smell Pylon cheese.


(just an observation)
Ah thanks for reminding me I'll be fixing that soon.

That isn't really cheese, to be honest. You can easily spot the enemy from on top of the cliffs.



None.

May 16 2010, 2:37 pm Pr0nogo Post #11



I was referring to placing the Pylon outside the vision blocker.
But yes, I can see that the cliffs would be useful like that.
It seems like there's a lot of squares. Maybe some random (mirrored, of course) cliffs here and there would be appeasing to all us aesthetically-stuck-ups?




May 16 2010, 11:53 pm Valug Post #12



http://www.staredit.net/valug/Starcraft II Maps/JungleBlood.png" style="max-width:500px; max-height:500px;" onclick="javascript:show_image(755486947)" id="image_clickable_755486947" class="image_clickable">

Higher res picture with Ultra Quality. I think you might have went a little overload with the foliage density btw. Not sure if you were aware of how hardcore you made the flowers, heh, since they don't show up on lower graphic settings. In game is doesn't look that bad, but its definably more then I'm use to seeing. The playable bounds should not generally be the end of the map, it can look very awkward:

http://www.staredit.net/valug/Starcraft II Maps/jungleblood bot.png" style="max-width:500px; max-height:500px;" onclick="javascript:show_image(839553574)" id="image_clickable_839553574" class="image_clickable">
http://www.staredit.net/valug/Starcraft II Maps/jungleblood side.png" style="max-width:500px; max-height:500px;" onclick="javascript:show_image(374013629)" id="image_clickable_374013629" class="image_clickable">

Otherwise, I like the changes you made. The two outside bridge areas are even more closed off now though, since you pointed the ramps towards the edge of the map, making it even harder to move your units into a position to assault it. Also, after playing around a bit on the map, I think the mains are still too small. Endgame is will be impossible to fit all your buildings inside your main.

Post has been edited 6 time(s), last time on May 17 2010, 12:34 am by Valug.



None.

May 20 2010, 5:17 am UnholyUrine Post #13



I know i'm not being much help here..

but the truth is.. it's still ugly and uninteresting D: .. even with SC1, we can do better...



None.

May 20 2010, 6:07 pm ImagoDeo Post #14



Quote from UnholyUrine
I know i'm not being much help here..

but the truth is.. it's still ugly and uninteresting D: .. even with SC1, we can do better...

I was going to say much the same thing, UU. I'm afraid I don't much like the blockyness. Sure, it's easier to do symmetry if you have specific squares to work with, but try to vary the edges at least a little bit. Cut down the foliage, add stuff off to the sides - like additional expansions, cliffs, rivers, textures that actually make it interesting. Try to make the whole thing look more natural. IRL cliffs aren't square.

And then there are the balance problems mentioned by others, but I'm not going there. This field is still in its infancy and the last thing we need is some dunce like me messing it up. :><:



None.

May 20 2010, 9:15 pm Valug Post #15



Quote from ImagoDeo
Quote from UnholyUrine
I know i'm not being much help here..

but the truth is.. it's still ugly and uninteresting D: .. even with SC1, we can do better...

I was going to say much the same thing, UU. I'm afraid I don't much like the blockyness. Sure, it's easier to do symmetry if you have specific squares to work with, but try to vary the edges at least a little bit. Cut down the foliage, add stuff off to the sides - like additional expansions, cliffs, rivers, textures that actually make it interesting. Try to make the whole thing look more natural. IRL cliffs aren't square.

And then there are the balance problems mentioned by others, but I'm not going there. This field is still in its infancy and the last thing we need is some dunce like me messing it up. :><:

It's his first map, learning basic concepts is the important part, you can always make the map look good later.



None.

May 21 2010, 1:14 am UnholyUrine Post #16



Yeah, for a first map, this is a start

The concept itself is a bit flawed... but it's a concept nonetheless. Keep trying =)



None.

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