Would it be possible to preload the Shuttle (and Medivac I guess) with two special units with a transport size of 4, and reload them if they are unloaded? Warbringer, if unused, would work, but so would Duke, Tassadar/Zeratul, or the Torrasque. (It's been a loooong time since I've played; idk which if any of those are available.) Or even four Raynor Vultures or something would work if needed; it's not like there are many Shuttles flailing around.

All of the heroes you mentioned have been used, except the raynor vultures.

It's a possible solution though; that might be the ultimate fix for the reavers getting stuck too, if the shuttle is full maybe it'll never try to pick the reavers up.

Today i played your map several times, it's so good. I like it although now i have much bepuzzlement about it.

I think that if you do that Lanth be sure to give the raynor vults 1 hp and 0 attack and 0 armor. Otherwise if it doesn't work as planned...

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Apr 29 2012, 1:14 pm by 3FFA. Reason: I needed to...

Yep, will definitely do that.

I did some work on this last night:
- I can't work out how larva are given to enemy players from hives/lairs, but I put in a trigger to remove enemy larva from your base.
- Changed marauders to 1.66 per supply depot from 2, -$20 to $225. Still 1 war pig.
- Changed void ray to no longer 'pulse' to 50% of shields (12). Also reduced the full shield recharge by 1 trigger cycle - effectively the extra 'pulse' trigger has been removed from the system.
- Started looking at the 'steal enemy buildings when player leaves at 0:00" bug that was in one of the earlier replays. Although this is very rare, it is pretty much game destroying so I want to fix it if possible. I got some screenshots of what's happening when the triggers go wonky, so now I just have to trace through the triggers against what the screenshots show to work out what's going on.

From DS Angels, I had an idea: make the warp prism, thor and nydus worm buildable after you destroy the enemy silo OR when you get to 5 gas, effectively meaning we may see these heroes much earlier. If I do this, I'll tone down the Thor and Warp Prism to spawn units more slowly and probably tweak the nydus just a little in that direction too.

I want to bring up a new topic and it is about Goliath's anti-air ability.
I have only one replay to share for now, but it is very short and clearly shows goliath is not the answer for early Void Rays. (and several others I will discuss)
As you can see, the opponent Terran is a very smart player. He knew I would be spawning zealots in my first turn so he made several firebats and later made some ghosts to lockdown my void rays. The "mistake" he made near the end of the replay was to produce goliaths thinking that it would easily eliminate the Void Rays.
The "correct" thing he could've done was to produce more stim-pack equipped marines, but I'm sure both he and I were experienced enough that Barracks units are suicidal against even just a couple of Reavers with immortal/zealot support.

Now let's get into the numbers. The current damage for Hellfire missile is 22. However, this attack is 11+11 in 2 hits so if the targeted unit has 1 armor, the damage it goes in is only 10+10. This is the reason that in regular playing, the goliath's missile damage is 20, but it goes up by +4 per upgrade damaging up to 32. (or should I say, 16+16 in 2 hits) This 32 damage is done on air units that usually have up to only +3 armor (+6 or +7 at the best for fully upgraded BC or Carriers) Let's not also forget that the attack is an explosive type which means 50% damage to small units, 75% to medium units, and 100% to large units.

So how does this affect in-game play? Let's consider a late TvZ.
Almost always the Terran goes for mass BC and the Zerg makes several Greater Spires to counter it. As the Zerg makes Great Spires, he is also making that many Guardians. Guardians are designed to counter M&M by its long range and high damage, but it is supposed to be countered by goliaths because of its even longer attack range and higher damage. However, because the damage is only 11+11 and the guardian has 5 armor, this translates into only 6+6 = 12 damage per shot. This is a very light amount of damage considering how much Guardians can stack up and goliath is the only ground unit for Terran that is viable in both mid and late game. (the equivalent for Zerg would be hydralisks and archons for Protoss)

So what is my point? 11+11 damage is too low damage for Goliath considering most of the air units in Desert Strike have 3~6 armors. I mean, compared to 16+16 damaged used to counter units that have +3 armor in regular game, don't you think Goliath's anti-air ability is too weak in Desert Strike?

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What change are you proposing then? Increase the damage to 24, or higher? Decrease guardian armor (whouldn't necessarily be against that...)?

How about increasing the damage to 32? This is still weak compared to golaiths in regular game since air units have so much armor in DS.

Went through all the version history in this thread and it looks like goliaths have had 22 air damage for quite a long time now. I had previously dropped it in the past, with the reason being goliaths with the range upgrade are very strong at taking out the mothership, rendering the protoss' strongest hero rather weak - ideally I'd be able to increase the shield armor on just the mothership, but unfortunately SC doesn't allow that. I had been toying with changing the size of one of the mothership's killing locations to help them out vs terran a bit more, so I might go ahead with that. Most I'd really be willing to do is put goliath up to 26 damage from their current 22. They have recently had -10 hp down to 120 so that wouldn't be too unreasonable, possibly take it another notch down to 115.

I don't see why you think you need a mothership buff against terran. Motherships don't even get seasoned with acid spores or plague so it is quite difficult to take it down as Terran. In fact, taking out 600 HP worth of shield is easier than taking down the 60HP because they have 18 armor and that is less than 1 damage per goliath shot. I can only hope that the BC's will shoot their Yamato Cannon at the mothership or a large number of wraiths somehow focus fires on the mothership to take it down ASAP.

I'm saying this because when two decent players fight, you can almost never win as a Terran in army to army battle and I think the biggest reason is that, in short, the ground units (primarily Goliaths) gets decimated and there are no units supporting the BC's.

Because often the mothership gets killed by terrans before it can even cast stasis. I see it game after game.

Maybe you just need to build more wraiths, ghosts, science vessals and medics.

Medics against Protoss?

Well yes, vs protoss Medics don't do a whole lot. But the biggest weakness I see in terran players game after game is failure to build medics, ghosts and often science vessals as well. I think wraiths are under-rated as well.

However, it is important to know that ghosts and science vessels are limited in production and in battlefield. Of course they help, but when the size the battle gets larger and there are more units on the field, they become significantly less effective. I also do produce sufficient amount of wraiths (sometimes even building 1:1 ratio between Starport and Science Facility to play around) so that these wraiths act as meat shield for my BC's and give some amount of damage. However, they have a high tendency to stack up like the mutas and when the opponent is spawning nearly 100 corsairs at a time, I don't think it matters if I have 100 wraiths or 200 wraiths.

On a partially related note, I think I should share one of the experiments I did back in the days which is fight between corsair and valkyrie. In 1:1 battle, the corsair wins just by barely. Between 2:2 and about 10:10, the valkyries win in a convincing fashion, but after 12:12, the corsairs are back on top and as the numbers increase for both sides, the corsairs are even more dominating.

My point is you can prove it experimentally that corsairs are the strongest unit when they are in significant clusters. I know you mentioned Stargate is the most expensive building for the units you produce, but it is different story if you look at from a macroscopic perspective. I'm not saying you should nerf the corsairs or further increase the cost of Stargate, but some 'properties' of the unit change as they are in huge numbers and experience a synergy effect.

I will continue to experiment how to beat Protoss as Terran in army-to-army battle and I hope the potential increase in Goliath's hellfire missile damage will help.

However, this doesn't mean Terran sucks. In 2v2 or 3v3, it is almost impossible to lose if our team is all-Terran since we can nuke at every spawn and slowly killing away the temple.

Try looking into the silo destruction triggers, the new glitches with the larvae and aggro buildings only seems to hit after an event such as the silo or instaspawn and only seem to occur during the 0:00 spawn moment.

It is indeed happening during the spawning event, I can see that from the replay. I just don't understand what is actually going on. The buildings are briefly owned by P9-P11, depending on the player. If a larva spawns during this brief window (2 frames) then it seems to end up belonging to one of the human players 1-3 or 5-7. I don't understand why a larva created for P9-11 would end up being owned by 1-3 or 5-7 as there are no triggers to Give larva between players in this fashion, or indeed why it would end up being owned by an enemy player - in the replay I watched it appears to be owned by P1 who isn't even in the game.

I examined the 'building stealing on player exit at 0:00' issue again last night, looking at the screenshots I took and watching the replay again, and I know what happened in general terms with a strong hunch for a specific detail of what happened. Should be fairly easy to fix - the difficulty is going to be setting up a way to reproduce the issue accurately and test my fix.


Re: Corsair, there really isn't a lot of scope to move with this unit due to it's unusual properties of fast fire rate, large splash, dweb spell and explosive damage type, none of which I can change.

If I make changes to goliath, it'll probably be to 26 damage and -5 hp to 115 as well as changing the mothership's attack. At the moment the mothership has got 3 locations that follow it around, a square one and two rectangular ones, one horizontal and one vertical. The change will be to add a 2nd horizontal one that is wider (by 2 tiles on each side) and for 50% of attacks it will use this wider location to select a target. These locations are only about 5-6 tiles across by default so units have to get quite close to the mothership before it has a chance to kill them: in the case of terrans and BCs in particular it often is destroyed before it can even get in range. So changing this will help it get a few more 'shots' off when going up against entrenched enemy spawns.

any progress on the worker killing buildings? Also, I would like a ver made with the reaver fix. I'm wishing for it game after game

I've fixed the workers killing buildings already. I haven't started working on the reaver freeze yet. Bear in mind that it may be unfixable as long as shuttles are used for the hero.

Oh ok. You've fixed the reaver max though right? That seems like the biggest issue even though it had a tiny mistake .

One workaround I'm having limited success with is building the shuttle in an ally base, the problem is if the shuttle is till alive and near my spawn at 0:00 the reavers will still stall but don't seem to do so as much.