Staredit Network > Forums > Serious Discussion > Topic: Geopolitics Matters
Geopolitics Matters
This topic is locked. You can no longer write replies here.
Oct 4 2008, 8:59 pm
By: Centreri  

Oct 4 2008, 8:59 pm Centreri Post #1

Relatively ancient and inactive

If folks have been following what's been happening in the world this past year, they must've been amazed. And pissed at how quickly the US is falling. Let's recap:
  • China pulled off the 2008 Olympics flawlessly and with a 40$ billion budget. It demonstrated to the world that its' modern. (Not that I like it).
  • The Middle East problems have been continuing and escalating. Iran is closer than ever to nuclear weapons, and though Iraq is pretty decent now, Afghanistan is getting worse. Taliban are fighting back.
  • North Korea has revived its nuclear program after not being taken off the US 'Axis of Evil 2.0' list after it stopped its activities. It's leader is said to have been sick the past few months, but he's supposed to have been seen recently. If something's still wrong, NK just became pretty unpredictable.
  • Georgia invaded South Ossetia and Russia invaded Georgia (and Palin wants to invade Russia). The US has been helpless and its failure to act has decreased its standing.
  • Financial crisis. The US economic system has been disgraced and many are turning more to the French/German(/Russian) system with more regulation.
  • China is the 2nd economic power (after US), 3rd military power (after US and Russia (http://www.globalfirepower.com/)), has largest population.
So, wtf is happening?



Countries going up
China: The way I see it, China is obviously a rising star. It has a rapidly growing military, economy, etc. It's the #3 military power, with a rather weak navy but good progress in the air force sector to balance that out (though, I must say, they just stole 90% of their designs from Russia). However, it's facing a couple of problems: It's population is paving the way for a food crisis in about twenty years, its economic growth is largely at the expense of the environment, and its now the #1 polluter in the world. Additionally, its growth is largely reliant on the US buying its products.


Russia: Also rapidly rising. Averaging an economic growth of about 7% per year, Russia's the third fastest growing major power right now. It's restoring its military (which was 2nd in the world anyway), brushing off its nuclear arsenals, etc. However, again, a ton of problems: Russia is facing what can accurately be described a health crisis. Average male lifespan is 60 years and women is 73 years. The major causes are smoking and drinking, though I also think that a lot of it has got to do with things like horrible roads (You guys should really go to St. Petersburg. I'm scared to cross some streets.). Additionally, it's stock market is undergoing turbulance to the extent that economic growth for 2008 was lowered by a percentage point. Companies like Gazprom have lost almost half of their value on the stock market. One of the things that makes it a powerful player in Europe is that Europe gets about a 3rd of its gas and oil supplies from Russia. A key geopolitical factor that keeps the EU or NATO from doing anything. And, the thing I'm pissed at Putin at is that he's focusing so little energy on social problems and so much on nuclear. We already know you can reduce anyone to dust.


India: Another rising star. A 9% annual economic growth, fourth powerful military. India's having major military ties with Russia and is buying billions worth of tanks and planes from it, as well as developing together - such as the Brahmos missile and a new 5-Gen plane to match the F-22. Facing problems largely the same as China but to a worse degree: It doesn't have enough wealth to spread evenly amoung its 1 billion+ inhabitants. As a result, India's population is generally poor and its a favorite spot for outsourcing. It has a poor life expectancy, 64 years. It's a powerful player on the world front but has rather poor folk.


Brazil: A rather weak military power (9th) and also ninth largest economy, growing at a rate of 5% annually. Brazil also recently found a gigantic oil reserve which could make it a powerful exporter, fueling its rise. It has an average life span of 74 years, and is a very ethnically diverse society. It has a population of 180 million, which is a good number for its size and economy. Overall, I'd say this is the most balanced country on this list without any major problems. Good health, good demographics, good economy, good military. This is in my opinion pretty much the only 'neutral' power if a new Cold War broke out. It's mixing both sides.


Collectively, these four countries are known as the BRIC countries, and they've been somewhat maneuvering themselves to be the new centers of power this century. Brazil is the least of them, India and Russia have their fields of power and China is #1. However, I'll note that Russia'll probably remain a close #3 in the 21st century, maneuvering between the United States and China and tipping the weight as required. It has ginormous energy reserves, the most higher-education-graduates in Europe, the most powerful Eurasian military and second most active military industry (Stupid Chinese keep taking our planes and naming them J-something). India, on the other hand, will probably be a powerful economic power but weak in other areas, and Brazil's relatively modest growth would leave it on the same level as India, but with a generally more balanced resume.



Others
Another possible power is the European Union. Collectively, it has a larger economy and population then the US, though I imagine a slightly weaker scientific and technological base. Military spending is pretty bad - even though the EU has a stronger combined economy, it has around $300 billion spend anually on defense, compared to $700 billion in US. However, the economies grow very slowly - the EU grows at maybe 3% per year, and the EU is currently in a recession. One of the things that really make the EU a weak world player is how every member country is so independent. Russia and the US in particular have several 'partner states' in the EU which can stop decisionmaking from happening. The presidency is rotated between leaders of member countries, which is pretty idiotic. Six months per. One of the few chances at the EU coordinating its movements to make it closer to a federation instead of a confederation (and a superpower instead of an easily-manipulated power) is the Treaty of Lisbon, which is essentially made to do just that. However, not all member states have agreed yet. I think Ireland was only one to say no, actually. Anyway, currently the EU is manipulated by the US via the UK and Eastern Europe, while Russia has particularly close ties to Germany (gas buddies) and others with Cyprus, France and Italy.


The United States is going down from its status of superpower. The economic crisis made the world doubt the power of the 'no regulation' things favored by the US and UK in favor of French and German regulated systems. It retains #1 military power in world by far and probably will for a long time. It also has, so far, the largest economy in the world, though China could surpass it eventually. I see it rather likely, however, that if this crisis continues that there could be some economic crisis. The US is actually 'using' about 50% of all the dollars in the world right now, the rest being held in the reserves of other countries or in circulation elsewhere. If faith in the US goes down and those dollars head back home, inflation. It has a good population for its economy, high average life span, etc. Its health sector is fine. Going through a real estate crisis. The US is losing a lot of its 'integrity' in other countries, in part because of the administrations idiocy (Rice & Bush: In the 21st century, states do not invade other sovereign states), in part of the economic crisis. The military is stretched in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the US is paying maybe $10 billion per year in Iraq alone. It's yearly economy growth is about 2% per year, which is low. Incidentally, most of Europe is similarly bad in the economy growth right now. The EU is 3.1%. The US has 25% of the world GDP and more then 50% of the world military spending, which really can't continue forever.


So, the way I see it, the US is really alienating everyone with this administration. I read this fantastic article on how this applies to Russia, but it really applies to most major non-NATO countries. And the past Clinton and Bush 1.0 administrations. It's too... 'I wanna do this solo, gusy'. I'm hoping the next administration can fix this. A powerful US but in a multipolar (many powers, no superpowers) world would be better for everyone, I think.


What you nubs are going to do
Well, discuss what you think the world will look like in ten, twenty or whatever years. Will the US suffer an economic crisis with 200% inflation, will it not, will China become #1 and the world heads for Cold War v2.0, etc. I'm just interested in what you folks think about the world. You must have some opinions. And come on, this has to be more exciting then religion.

Post has been edited 11 time(s), last time on Dec 31 2008, 6:15 pm by Centreri.



None.

Oct 4 2008, 9:30 pm Money Post #2



Looking at these statistics (http://www.globalfirepower.com/) make me feel like I'm playing cybernations. But I'm not.'

Being only 14, it's hard to imagine how real this all is.



None.

Oct 4 2008, 11:08 pm Moose Post #3

We live in a society.

Quote from Centreri
[*]China pulled off the 2008 Olympics flawlessly and with a 40$ billion budget. It demonstrated to the world that its' modern. (Not that I like it).
Flawlessly?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concerns_and_controversies_over_the_2008_Summer_Olympics




Oct 4 2008, 11:14 pm Centreri Post #4

Relatively ancient and inactive

.. Yeah. I said it wrong. And one relative of a coach was killed. I guess I meant to say 'impressively'. It was very dramatic, very well organized, no delays, and then they also took home the gold.



None.

Oct 4 2008, 11:27 pm FatalException Post #5



The U.S. seems to be trying to emulate Rome. Rome conquered what is now Israel, and the now-Israelis weren't happy with it. Rome had a few troop surges to try to stop them from fighting, and it worked in the short-term, but eventually, the soldiers were tired of fighting in one place. Fighting for things you already own doesn't bring in any money, so the army wasn't happy and many generals took their battalions and split off to become independent. Rome fell.
The U.S. has invaded the Middle East, and they aren't happy about it. The U.S. had a troop surge (and Palin wants another) to try to stop them from fighting, and it worked in the short-term. See where I'm going with this?



None.

Oct 5 2008, 1:23 am Centreri Post #6

Relatively ancient and inactive

These things take less and less time. Roman empire lasted for a thousand years, the US is getting pretty weak after less then a century. However, it won't be overrun or besieged by an enemy army, of course.



None.

Oct 5 2008, 3:06 am Kaias Post #7



Quote from Centreri
These things take less and less time. Roman empire lasted for a thousand years, the US is getting pretty weak after less then a century. However, it won't be overrun or besieged by an enemy army, of course.
Everything changes faster now. Technology, fashion, ideals..

I was just thinking of how different the world for my nephew is at his age from when I was a kid.



None.

Oct 5 2008, 3:50 am Vi3t-X Post #8



1980 - 64MHz processor - $1500
2000 - 4.2MHz processor - $1500

Not that these values are correct to their nature, its just an expression.



None.

Oct 5 2008, 9:26 pm Centreri Post #9

Relatively ancient and inactive

... Jesus. Is anyone going to actually respond on topic?



None.

Oct 7 2008, 9:37 pm Centreri Post #10

Relatively ancient and inactive

This is a tiny bit off-topic, but everyone's ignoring this fascinating discussion so I'll feel free to post in hopes of stimulating the SENconomy.

This is all from the International Herald Tribune - Europe's top stories. I looked at what they are, and on the same page:
Quote
Russia says it will pull back some troops from Georgia
IHT, Reuters
Russia will pull back Wednesday from the southern edge of a buffer zone inside Georgia adjacent to South Ossetia, a senior Russian officer said, ahead of a deadline Friday.
Quote
Gates says U.S. forces will remain in Kosovo
By DAN BILEFSKY
The United States will maintain its troop presence in Kosovo until at least late next year, Defense Secretary Robert Gates said, underlining U.S. support for the country.

.... HULLO? WTF? I THOT DAT DEM COMMIES WER TEH BAD GUSYS.

And something else, but from the Brits this time. Russia's deciding on a loan to bail out Icelands economy with a $5.4 billion loan. However, the Telegraph (Brits!) immediately demonized it. It's pretty funny.
Quote from “">http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/breakingviewscom/3153678/Iceland-should-turn-to-the-IMF-not-Russia.html]“[The loan would] create strategic ructions. Iceland is a NATO member, but Russia would want something in return for a loan equal to almost a third of the tiny state’s GDP. The US would fret this could eventually mean a Russian military presence in the North Atlantic.”


Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Oct 7 2008, 9:48 pm by Centreri.



None.

Oct 7 2008, 11:55 pm WoAHorde Post #11



Quote
Russia: Also rapidly rising. Averaging an economic growth of about 7% per year, Russia's the third fastest growing major power right now. It's restoring its military (which was 2nd in the world anyway), brushing off its nuclear arsenals, etc. However, again, a ton of problems: Russia is facing what can accurately be described a health crisis. Average male lifespan is 60 years and women is 73 years. The major causes are smoking and drinking, though I also think that a lot of it has got to do with things like horrible roads (You guys should really go to St. Petersburg. I'm scared to cross some streets.). Additionally, it's stock market is undergoing turbulance to the extent that economic growth for 2008 was lowered by a percentage point. Companies like Gazprom have lost almost half of their value on the stock market. One of the things that makes it a powerful player in Europe is that Europe gets about a 3rd of its gas and oil supplies from Russia. A key geopolitical factor that keeps the EU or NATO from doing anything. And, the thing I'm pissed at Putin at is that he's focusing so little energy on social problems and so much on nuclear. We already know you can reduce anyone to dust.

Rising? I seem to recall massive cases of corruption in the government at all levels, and it may very well be the worst in the modernised world. Russia faces the world's lowest natural increase(-0.6%) in the world, and emigration is causing the population to deplete even faster. Russia's oil choke hold on Europe is rapidly decreasing, with notable increases in alternative energy resources and falling gas cosumption, especially in Western and Central Europe(the powerhouse).



None.

Oct 8 2008, 1:52 am Rantent Post #12



Your forgetting Qatar, who's per capita GDP is about twice that of the US (and rising) giving them the ability to create things such as Education City.



None.

Oct 8 2008, 1:52 am New-Guy Post #13



A little off topic, but you keep saying that America has the strongest military.
I thought that we had a relatively small military, most of which is currently in action in the Middle East. (Not most... but enough).
I believe that America's military power comes from strong branches, advanced technology, and smart fighting.

Correct me if I'm wrong, because I probably am...

EDIT: Apparently, the American military consists of 3 million personnel, only half of which are active at any one time, unless in an emergency.
America has the strongest Airforce, and one of the most flexible navy's.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Oct 8 2008, 1:58 am by New-Guy.



None.

Oct 8 2008, 8:47 pm Centreri Post #14

Relatively ancient and inactive

Quote
Rising? I seem to recall massive cases of corruption in the government at all levels, and it may very well be the worst in the modernised world. Russia faces the world's lowest natural increase(-0.6%) in the world, and emigration is causing the population to deplete even faster. Russia's oil choke hold on Europe is rapidly decreasing, with notable increases in alternative energy resources and falling gas cosumption, especially in Western and Central Europe(the powerhouse).
First of all, Europe's dependence on Russian oil and gas was predicted to rise to 60% or so at some point - I think it was by 2020. While the US wants to wean the EU off Russian oil, it hasn't really worked. Massive cases of corruption, yes, that's completely true. I'm not a fan of the government system there. However, that is irrelevant. Even with all those dollars being pocketed, things are getting done, and much faster then in more 'westernized' countries. The current economic crisis is slowing it down, possibly greatly (I read an article about some billionaire forced to stop from building a city-within-a-city (in Moscow, I think) because of it), but not less so then in the EU or US. I acknowledged the population crisis, but you're overstating it. Once (I don't really think this is an 'if') Putin or whoever's in charge at that time focuses more on the problem, it'll slowly start to fix itself. The government is giving 'prizes' for births on what has been called by the folks as 'sex day' ( :lol: ), which resulted in a baby boom. Average life span has been slowly but steadily increasing after a large drop after the collapse of the Soviet Union because of things like STD's which sprung up. The net decrease in population has been decreasing every year - I forgot where I saw this, but I think it was 400,000 in 2007 as opposed to 700,000 in 2006. The population will start to trickle back if the economy starts booming again as it did until two months ago.

I have no idea where you're getting some of your facts.
Quote
Your forgetting Qatar, who's per capita GDP is about twice that of the US (and rising) giving them the ability to create things such as Education City.
Qatar is, like Luxembourg and Sweden, a good place to live in. They have a good social system and a government-regulated (at least a bit) economy. However, none of those countries will become major players due to their lack of a military or other leverage over others.
Quote
A little off topic, but you keep saying that America has the strongest military.
I thought that we had a relatively small military, most of which is currently in action in the Middle East. (Not most... but enough).
I believe that America's military power comes from strong branches, advanced technology, and smart fighting.
America has the most powerful Air Force and most powerful Navy, almost without competition (Russia's #2 in Air Force :<_<:. And, probably Navy, though it's a shadow of its former glory. Army... either China or Russia #2) . No major naval powers apart from the US. Army-wise, however, the US has a significantly smaller lead. They have a sizable military force, and they're all professional, not conscripts. It has a good amount of tanks, howitzers, Surface-to-Air missiles, etc. And, put all together, it's the #1 power in that as well. However, it's behind other countries in specific categories. China has the largest and most powerful (though mostly poorly trained) army, personnel-wise. Hundreds of millions, if it needs them. Russia has the most advanced surface-to-air technology, the Patriot systems lagging behind the S-300 and the even more advanced S-400. However, I think quantity-wise, the US wins that one, too, though quantity won't make catching that ballistic missile any easier. Overall, the US land-based military is the most powerful.

Post has been edited 5 time(s), last time on Nov 19 2008, 2:27 am by Centreri.



None.

Oct 9 2008, 2:37 am WoAHorde Post #15



You keep coming back to military as one of the most primary(if not most important, in your opinion), factors of being a rising or sustained superpower. We are no longer living in the 20th century, the countries that focused immensely on their military at the expense of their economy are lagging behind and suffering right now( United States and Russia are notable examples, here). A nation's economic power and innovation is what will determine the top players over the course of this century; nations in the Arabian Peninsula are big players here, take a look at Dubai, the fastest developing city in the world. America's status in the world did not decline just because of our military failure in the Middle East and our response to 9/11, it is because our economy slugged with the destruction of our most powerful economic monument( WTC ), and we rid a housing bubble hoping it would last forever.

Economic leverage will determine who will be a big player, not military power; we're rising above the whole military means ultimate power mindset. The Soviet Union fell not because of American military might, but because it's economy collapsed from the arms race with NATO.



None.

Oct 9 2008, 1:02 pm Centreri Post #16

Relatively ancient and inactive

Military power and nuclear power determine how much leverage a country has and how much it can defend itself. You can talk about the 21st century all you want, but in this century, Afghanistan, Iraq and the former Yugoslavia were war zones.

I'm not saying that economy isn't important. It's more important in my eyes then military might. However, a country without a powerful military cannot be a great power, because it can't defend itself against less... caring-about-international-law countries. Again, see Afghanistan, Iraq and Serbia. If the United States didn't have a military, its' $13 trillion GDP wouldn't stop... let's say Venezuela from kicking its ass.

Saying that military power is irrelevant is extremely naive. Without military as being part of the game, there would be no 'great powers' because they couldn't do anything. Countries like China, the US and Russia build up their armed forces, set up bases in foreign lands (mostly US) to expand their influence and scare each other in case a conflict does come. I don't think history is over yet. While there may not be any major wars, countries will continue expanding their armed forces to deal with separatists and other countries.
Quote
Economic leverage will determine who will be a big player, not military power; we're rising above the whole military means ultimate power mindset. The Soviet Union fell not because of American military might, but because it's economy collapsed from the arms race with NATO.
Arms race. Even there, military might rears its head. In any case, the Soviet Union was heading downhill in the 1980's anyway. Economic power today can break down capitalistic economies, yes. However, if you cut off trade to a country, an internal command economy and the ability to manufacture needed goods (which, admittedly, most countries can't do) is enough to keep a country afloat. This means that massive sanctions against a powerful country would do just what the West doesn't want - create a fascistesque/communistesque state. There are limits to economic power and most hesitate to use it because economic power, unlike military power, affects both parties.



None.

Oct 10 2008, 1:03 am Centreri Post #17

Relatively ancient and inactive

Poor Iceland. It's bankrupt and Britain declared what its' done with the banks, such as nationalizing and temporarily freezing them to stop money from flowing out a terrorist act, invoking anti-terrorism laws to freeze Icelandic assets everywhere they could in Britain.

Somewhat funny, but I like Iceland. :(

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Oct 10 2008, 1:10 am by Centreri.



None.

Oct 17 2008, 4:34 am Screwed Post #18



There seems to be an undertone coming across that China's growth is inherently bad or evil, and the US's downfall entails negative repercussions for the world.

Actually good on China, I'm sick of the US acting like it's the world police for so many decades.



None.

Oct 28 2008, 1:30 am Centreri Post #19

Relatively ancient and inactive

Eh. I don't like China. I want it to be balanced by the other BRIC powers, because it's far too powerful as it is right now. 2 trillion $ reserves, a booming economy.. although, dropping.



None.

Nov 19 2008, 12:16 am Centreri Post #20

Relatively ancient and inactive

....
BUMP FOR GREAT JUSTICE!

People don't read these threads enough. I mean, this is much more interesting then McCain/Obama is. THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX!



None.

Options
  Back to forum
Please log in to reply to this topic or to report it.
Members in this topic: None.
[07:46 am]
RIVE -- :wob:
[2024-4-22. : 6:48 pm]
Ultraviolet -- :wob:
[2024-4-21. : 1:32 pm]
Oh_Man -- I will
[2024-4-20. : 11:29 pm]
Zoan -- Oh_Man
Oh_Man shouted: yeah i'm tryin to go through all the greatest hits and get the runs up on youtube so my senile ass can appreciate them more readily
You should do my Delirus map too; it's a little cocky to say but I still think it's actually just a good game lol
[2024-4-20. : 8:20 pm]
Ultraviolet -- Goons were functioning like stalkers, I think a valk was made into a banshee, all sorts of cool shit
[2024-4-20. : 8:20 pm]
Ultraviolet -- Oh wait, no I saw something else. It was more melee style, and guys were doing warpgate shit and morphing lings into banelings (Infested terran graphics)
[2024-4-20. : 8:18 pm]
Ultraviolet -- Oh_Man
Oh_Man shouted: lol SC2 in SC1: https://youtu.be/pChWu_eRQZI
oh ya I saw that when Armo posted it on Discord, pretty crazy
[2024-4-20. : 8:09 pm]
Vrael -- thats less than half of what I thought I'd need, better figure out how to open SCMDraft on windows 11
[2024-4-20. : 8:09 pm]
Vrael -- woo baby talk about a time crunch
[2024-4-20. : 8:08 pm]
Vrael -- Oh_Man
Oh_Man shouted: yeah i'm tryin to go through all the greatest hits and get the runs up on youtube so my senile ass can appreciate them more readily
so that gives me approximately 27 more years to finish tenebrous before you get to it?
Please log in to shout.


Members Online: Roy, Ultraviolet