I suppose you can release the game and observe how my 4~12% HP units can deal with the enemy spawn that has 20% HP. If it's noticeably overpowered or underpowered, then we can talk about it.
I understand your point that Terran nuke is not really a good counter to Protoss MC or Zerg Infestation and the list of updates would actually make it a decent counter, but we have to keep in mind that the Terran can cast 7 nukes while Protoss can only cast 6 MC if both players earn ~42,000 minerals in the late game. If the Nuke can actually properly counter MC or Infestation, this small, and aggregating difference in price can make a large difference.
So far, I used the terran nukes to give direct damage to the temple and hold off the enemy army a little longer, not expecting to counter the MC or Infestation, but this idea might change from bottom up.
Perhaps you're playing against someone who is not very good. I've already stated 2 nukes are needed to counter one mc or one infestation, because if your enemy used special every time you nuke then he's at disadvantage. The only advantage of nuke is the first time when it would steal many units but after thet it's game over. You won't have a decent army every time you use nuke but just one infestation or one mc can take all. So i think you are against someone who is using specials the same time as you which is not really good because protoss or zerg doesn't need to use special every time nuke is used. But every time zerg or protoss used their special, the terran always needed to use nuke.
Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Feb 1 2012, 8:19 am by coolglaze.
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^ Because I know the current nuke can steal the units sitting on top of my temple, I cast it when I see the enemy corsairs or devourers are camping on my temple.
If I cast the nuke at the right timing and I get luck often enough, I can actually push back the enemy army with my devourer + bc or corsair+bc combination.
Because I know the Nuke is about ~700~1000 minerals cheaper than MC or the Infestation, I constantly build science facilities every time I have excess minerals and building more of those actually have an effect especially against Zerg!
Most players don't try to build anything when they realize it's time for Spec War, but Terrans should really utilize that Nuke is cheap and therefore use the leftover money to build a little more while still banking your money.
You are correct that when Zerg or Protoss use their special, the Terran always need to nuke. But there is also a way that you can make the army very strong by constantly building science facilities one at a time so that the enemy must do the special unless he wants to get pushed back.
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^ Because I know the current nuke can steal the units sitting on top of my temple, I cast it when I see the enemy corsairs or devourers are camping on my temple.
If I cast the nuke at the right timing and I get luck often enough, I can actually push back the enemy army with my devourer + bc or corsair+bc combination.
Because I know the Nuke is about ~700~1000 minerals cheaper than MC or the Infestation, I constantly build science facilities every time I have excess minerals and building more of those actually have an effect especially against Zerg!
Most players don't try to build anything when they realize it's time for Spec War, but Terrans should really utilize that Nuke is cheap and therefore use the leftover money to build a little more while still banking your money.
You are correct that when Zerg or Protoss use their special, the Terran always need to nuke. But there is also a way that you can make the army very strong by constantly building science facilities one at a time so that the enemy must do the special unless he wants to get pushed back.
I think this is based on just one game where your opponent seems to have weaker army than your terran. Fight very good players then you'll see that terran can't possibly win.
If you're building science facilities while they are saving special then you don't have the advantage of 6k minerals for nuke because they only neede 6.4k or 7k and one science facility costs 900. And you're saying you can withstand one infestation or one mc with one nuke? Maybe your opponent just doesn't know when to use specials. You can really win when they always use special before spawning time and only newbies would do that.
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And you're saying you can withstand one infestation or one mc with one nuke?
It all depends on the scenario, offensively the new nuke works best when you have already advanced to their temple and compliment it with an insta-spawn. Defensively the new nuke works good when the enemy is surrounding your temple combined with an insta-spawn to push forward. Strategy + Tactics win the game for Terrans.
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Okay even though I like some smart topics about the nuke(instead of people fighting about it)I'm gonna cut thru the topic and ask for immediate urgent IMPORTANT! help. So do any of you have an anti-hacker program called "BLACKLIST"??? If so can you please let me know where to find a legit blacklist and how to use it, your help will be very much appreciated. I'm sick of being bored and suffering from the boredom cause i can't play a peaceful game of DS if someone is gonna keep host-hacking me, dont you hate it too? dont we all hate when they do that to us? I wont give up DS just cause someone wants to piss me off by constantly hacking me for a full straight 5 hours(or worsely more) and if any of you can tell me how to get a legit blacklist program and how to use it then this can finally end. Cause reporting to blizzard about hackers like that just isn't enough cause they don't care
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I think this is based on just one game where your opponent seems to have weaker army than your terran. Fight very good players then you'll see that terran can't possibly win.
This is true only if both players have no booms or insta-spawn at all. Unless your army is significantly weaker than the opponent, some clever strategy regarding your booms and insta-spawn and using the special at the right timing (I call it the psychological warfare
) can be a viable fight for Terran. Of course it's much more than using specials right before spawn.
If I'm not swamped with schoolwork as of now, I think we should play about 10 matches of DS Night with me being Terran and you being Zerg. It's definitely not going to be 5:5 since both of us know what we're doing, but I think I can take at least 2~3 games away.
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I think this is based on just one game where your opponent seems to have weaker army than your terran. Fight very good players then you'll see that terran can't possibly win.
This is true only if both players have no booms or insta-spawn at all. Unless your army is significantly weaker than the opponent, some clever strategy regarding your booms and insta-spawn and using the special at the right timing (I call it the psychological warfare
) can be a viable fight for Terran. Of course it's much more than using specials right before spawn.
If I'm not swamped with schoolwork as of now, I think we should play about 10 matches of DS Night with me being Terran and you being Zerg. It's definitely not going to be 5:5 since both of us know what we're doing, but I think I can take at least 2~3 games away.
If your terran and im zerg im sure it would be 5-0 no need for so many matches. Lol try to play in garena you will find many good players that you can fight even not me. And if you find them you won't win using terran against zerg or protoss. We've tried it a lot of times 1v1 but no one could win, only when the opponent of terran is a newbie you can win that's why we won't use terran anymore in 1v1 just in 2v2 or 3v3. And when both players in 2v2 is terran because of random race they only hope they could win or hope that their opponents are newbies.
We could fight in garena if you want just pm me Coolglaze if i'm online then we can have a match.
Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Feb 2 2012, 3:54 pm by coolglaze.
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Ok, changes for 2.50:
- Infester stealing brutalisk / other heroes fixed
- Multiple motherships fixed (still chance of multiple dropship, but in general fairly unlikely)
- Booms kill scarabs that are moving towards their target
- Hybrid Destroyer -10 dmg to 35, +50 shields/hp to 250/250 and +2 armor to 5
- Tempest Carrier spawns fixed
- Void Rays -6 shields to 30, +1 armor to 3
- High Templar -30 hp to 10, -3 armor to 0. Templar Archives +$30, spawns 1 archon instead of 1.25
- Stalker (standard dragoon) +1 dmg to 22, -10 shields to 80 on both standard and hero type.
- Mothership has got a slightly higher chance of killing detectors and tweaked the cycle time a little (now the +1 tick penalties only kick in if it actually kills a detector when that trigger comes up, previous you always got +1 tick even if there was no detector to kill)
- Infestation will create fewer kerrigans and slightly fewer swarm guardians
- Nuke re-worked: enemy units in enemy half of field are set to 15% to 24% hp/shields (up from 12% to 20%), units in spawn box set to 24%. Enemy units in your half of field are all injured to 5% hp/shields and then stolen - enemy units stolen at the temple are no longer set to 66% hp/shields. Stolen enemy units do not have confusion effect (triggers didn't work properly, didn't really expect them to), but other enemy units do. Spider mines are placed in enemy half of the field only & in enemy spawn area as usual. Nuke BC damage remains unchanged at 3,000.
Haven't had another look at the defeat/draw triggers yet, but really not sure how these would go wrong. If anyone has a replay where they get Defeat when it should be a Draw, please upload it here, I suspect there's some weird combination of circumstances going on.
For the tempest carriers, the way they spawn are currently quite broken. For example if you build 3 fleet beacons you will spawn 3 tempests. As soon as you build a 4th, you will spawn 4 regular carriers and 0 tempests. Also it was per base, so you could build 3 fleet beacons in each players base for a total of 9 and therefore spawn 9 tempest carriers and 0 carriers (3 per player spawn). Even worse is that it was actually per player and per base: 3 protoss players could build 3 fleet beacons in each base including their own and then every spawn wave would spawn 9 tempest carriers and 0 regular carriers. I've fixed this up now so that you will always spawn 3 tempest carriers and then spawn the remainder in regular carriers and the tempests are now simply 3 per player per full spawn rotation, so if you build 3 fleet beacons in each base you will only spawn 3 tempests from your own spawn and 6 carriers from the other two - per 'spawn rotation' means if you build 0 in your base, 2 in your first ally's base and 1 in your 2nd ally's base, then you will still spawn 3 tempests from those two bases combined.
As for the archon/high templar changes, I've seen it more and more often lately where protoss players just build heaps of archons and nothing else. This is boring, and actually rather difficult for all of the other races to counter nicely. I've also tweaked void rays at the same time, because archons are the best protoss counter to them, so reducing shields while upping armor will help keep archons as reasonable counters while strengthening void rays against marines and hydras and other fast-firing low damage units. Increasing damage on stalkers is in hopes of making them a better alternative to archons.
Still want to get using your ally's insta-spawn powerups in. As previously stated, this will take at least a couple of hours to implement and test, it essentially requires a re-design of the current system which is strongly dependant on only being able to use your own one.
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Good stuff. It sounds like Terran can actually put up a winning game with the changes to the nuke you made.
I must announce that I have to back out from Starcraft for a while until spring break or so because not only I have schoolwork to do, but also have to spend copious amount of time searching and applying for internships and research. I will still check this forum on regular basis and give feedback within my ability, but I cannot get as technical as I was since I won't be playing any games. I will come back though, so no worries,... I absolutely love DS!
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High templars die very fast in nearly all the games I play, but yeah people luv to overdo it with chons which can b sometimes OP, at least thats my move!
However, when is 2.50 out?
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Hopefully today or tomorrow.
I've done 80% of the "use ally's insta-spawn" feature, when that's finished up it'll be ready to go. I've mainly put it in because I seem to have had a run of noob ally's recently, where they either don't know about/how to use insta-spawn, or they're just stupid and don't use it when they clearly should.
Note that this won't allow you to steal their insta-spawn powerup and use it for yourself, or take your own one and use it to spawn for them (if their spawn is better than yours). This is the part I haven't fully implemented yet. The thinking being that probably 80-90% of people won't realise that it's possible to use your ally's insta-spawn, so I don't want cases where Red player uses 2 or 3 insta-spawns and then the other team accuses them of cheating and quits, for example.
Pretty sure 98% of people don't realise that you can actually donate your boom to your ally by walking it into their base. So if you've got a noob ally who doesn't want to control their boom, get them to walk it to your base and then you can look after it for them.
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The ally insta thingy sounds good for when ally is busy gasing an while I can also build in his base, puts more strategy into it. Hey take a shitload of coffee if your gonna finish on the ally-insta thing haha, so u can get done faster! cheat time through
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Complete changelist for 2.50:
Previously stated- Infester stealing brutalisk / other heroes fixed
- Multiple motherships fixed (still chance of multiple dropship, but in general fairly unlikely)
- Booms kill scarabs that are moving towards their target
- Hybrid Destroyer -10 dmg to 35, +50 shields/hp to 250/250 and +2 armor to 5
- Tempest Carrier spawns fixed
- Void Rays -6 shields to 30, +1 armor to 3
- High Templar -30 hp to 10, -3 armor to 0. Templar Archives +$30, spawns 1 archon instead of 1.25
- Stalker (standard dragoon) +1 dmg to 22, -10 shields to 80 on both standard and hero type.
- Mothership has got a slightly higher chance of killing detectors and tweaked the cycle time a little (now the +1 tick penalties only kick in if it actually kills a detector when that trigger comes up, previous you always got +1 tick even if there was no detector to kill)
- Infestation will create fewer kerrigans and slightly fewer swarm guardians
- Nuke re-worked: enemy units in enemy half of field are set to 15% to 24% hp/shields (up from 12% to 20%), units in spawn box set to 24%. Enemy units in your half of field are all injured to 5% hp/shields and then stolen - enemy units stolen at the temple are no longer set to 66% hp/shields. Stolen enemy units do not have confusion effect (triggers didn't work properly, didn't really expect them to), but other enemy units do. Spider mines are placed in enemy half of the field only & in enemy spawn area as usual. Nuke BC damage remains unchanged at 3,000.
Additional changes
- Fixed error where insta-spawn didn't properly show you the mineral cost if you had insufficient minerals. It used All Players gas count instead of the current player, which could be quite confusing.
- Brood Lord -1 dmg to 24 (from Infestation)
- Zerglings spawn 5.33 instead of 6. This helps compensate for the +5 hp that was given in 2.49, which was +1/7th of their HP, this is -1/9 of their spawning numbers so a fair exchange I think.
- You can now use your ally's insta-spawn, but you cannot take it out of their base (or take yours out of your base).
Lately I've found a lot of zerg build lots of zerglings and not much else. The actual difference here is quite small: when you build 3 spawning pools you'll get 16 zerglings instead of 18. So again, more of a psychological change.
I pretty much re-did 85% of all of the triggers around insta-spawn, hence how I found the bug in the error message.
Map Get!
http://www.staredit.net/files/2203/
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Rivalz just helped me reproduce the Draw/Defeat bug and it's so obvious.
The trigger conditions are for Game Ended switch to be Cleared. The trigger executes for all players on the team in the game when the other team leaves. The trigger actions are to set Game Ended switch. Therefore only the first player on the team will execute the trigger and get Draw, while the other players won't execute the trigger because Game Ended is already set and will therefore receive Defeat because any players left in the game who don't get Victory/Draw will automatically get Defeat.
The fix is simply not to set Game Ended for this trigger. I do the check so that when the game has ended with victory for one team, if the enemy team leaves early then the Draw trigger won't kick in, instead you'd correctly receive defeat. But in the case of the Draw trigger, there's no need to set the switch because a genuine victory/defeat is already impossible.
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Shortest time between updates in quite a while
Instant spawns for the top team were broken. I did all the work on making the triggers work etc, and I *did* test them. Then I figured I could shrink the size of some of my locations, because their usage had changed so they didn't need to be as big any more. Really this was just an aesthetic thing for me looking at them in the editor. So I shrunk the locations and didn't think anything of it. This broke insta-spawns for the top team. They only just barely (1 pixel width) kept working for the bottom team, so I didn't spot it in my first playthrough of 2.50 (I always play it once before uploading it here and hosting as DL only).
So anyway, version 2.51:
- Fixed insta-spawn not working for top team as in 2.50
- Fixed draw/defeat bug as reported by Rivalz
- -$30 on armory to $475, now spawns 1.5 vulture up from 1, and 1 banshee unchanged.
Seems armouries aren't used much any more. This will help boost your army HP a bit more (primary purpose of the vulture) and hopefully make the cost a bit more attractive now.
http://www.staredit.net/files/2203/
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you should fix templars to have more life and return 1.25 archons because now the protoss suck haha. either that or you could raise the amount of high templars you get from it because they die to easy.
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I agree with Hellfire, the long it takes for someone to die from bullets is how long it'll take for high templars to die. Anyways, it appears the tempest carriers had a bug going on. In 2.49 I started carrier rush an got 3 tempest carriers but after making the 4th fleet beacon(er watever the hell the carrier building is called)it started spawning normal carriers with the same stats as tempest carriers lmao. and Protoss can be a little vulnerable now since its back to 1 archon/per templar archive an nearly the same price like it use to in DS 2.18 and versions under that. I never had problems kicking zergs ass in 2.18 though when I use to play it, 2.18 was by far the most balanced version in all ds, nothing was ever too OP, except nuke couldn't counter mcs an infest.
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Valkyrie can't do shit in late game, there's too much units and it can't attack..
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^ this is why you can only build 4 valks max. It is the mechanics of the game so there is not much you can do about it regarding the 'freezing'. It prevents the noobs overbuilding it anyway.
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I'm quite unlikely to change archons back up in numbers again and probably won't add more HP back to high templar. Really out of all of the races, Protoss have the highest HP, biggest splash damage and except for air the strongest hitting attacks. This is balanced by their fewer / more expensive numbers.
Probably what I should have done is reduced the cost of storm to say 260 and particularly the energy upgrade to maybe 240-260 as well, because they're much more fragile they'll manage to get a 2nd storm off less often.
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