I've played many times 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, and nuke really damage the temple with 3-4 bars. Here you go build battery or nydus 15-10 seconds remaining and tell me how many damage you can get to the temple. And i'm assuming why would anyone use specials early? Anyone who is using special early game when they can't stall the enemy units at center will automatically lose. Even if terran use early special that would only damage the night defense not the temple. So the case is you're opponent would already have units to damage your temple or night defense and so are you.

And by the way if you use boom right away after your enemy used special, there would be enemy units left on the other side a whole lot of them. Also if you used insta-spawn you can't do that again on the next special.

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Jan 29 2012, 11:28 pm by coolglaze.

I use the term "whining" because that's what it sounds like to me. People want the nuke to work like it used to, but really the new nuke is stronger in more situations than the old one. People just have to accept that nuke is *different* and works differently; trying to use it the same way as you used to use it, and then complaining that it 'sucks' is whining IMO: you need to change your strategy to adapt.

The old nuke never did this either. The old nuke killed enemy units in the enemy half of the field (effectively a reverse boom) and also dealt ~3000 damage to the enemy temple via the BC. Then it placed mines on the enemy side of the field.

If the enemy has just used infestation or MC against you as you spawned your units, the enemy would now have lets say 15 BCs right on top of your temple doing damage. The old nuke did NOTHING to this. The old nuke was effectively very offensive in that it let your army that was already in their side of the field attack their temple with no possible counter, thus forcing them to use a boom or a special. At the same time, the old nuke did nothing to stop the units directly attacking your temple, forcing you to also use a boom or a protoss or terran special.

The 'new' nuke however:
1. Confuses enemy units on the field, so they will stop progressing towards your temple for the duration of it which is about 15 real time seconds (anything already attacking the temple will continue to attack, though)
2. Greatly weakens all enemy units on the field on a sliding scale, so the ones attacking your temple will be weakened the most, while the ones defending their temple will be dropped to 20% HP/shields
3. Steals a small amount of enemy units directly attacking your temple, in particular brood lords, banshees and void rays/scouts.

The new nuke is therefore more defensive than the old one, but it is still strong in that it weakens enemy units on their side of the field, so if you had a large army on the enemy side of the field it should be able to get to the temple and do some damage (similar to old nuke) and it also still deals 3000 guaranteed damage *and* places mines that will destroy the current ground spawn, or the next one.

Making a nuke simply destroy all enemy units on the field is boring, particularly if both teams nuke at once because then there will be nothing on the field. This already happened quite a bit with the old style nuke anyway, where you'd just sit there staring at an almost empty field waiting for the next spawn. This hardly ever happens now.

Back when I first started making DS Night Fixed, this is what I wanted the nuke to do: create real nuke's that would land around the map, primarily for the mushroom cloud graphic (no other way to create it). Unfortunately it didn't work in practice: when I created multiple ghosts for the AI to use, even though there is an AI script which is "target nuke at location", it still didn't work properly - not all of the ghosts would target right away, some of them could even get distracted and attack other units or not target where they were supposed to. The other big problem is that nuclear damage is fixed: it does 500 in the middle and decreases outwards, but most annoyingly it is fixed to do 2/3rs HP damage 500 damage, whatever is greater. This means without some tricky trigger work, landing a nuke would take 2/3rds of the HP off the temple, so you'd need only 2 nukes to win the game.

As I mentioned above, I changed it because this is how nuke should have worked anyway. Infestation and MC both destroy all enemy units in the spawn box, for very good reasons. Suppose you cast MC or Infestation at 59 seconds on the timer, and 1 lot of enemy units has moved to the field but 85% of them are still in the box. If I left the units in the box to spawn normally, it would feel like your MC/Infestation was 'weak' because the enemy is still spawning units that would fight with the ones you just stole from them. Stealing all the units in the box for the special player has some technical trigger issues around spawning enemy units directly to attack your temple (completely solvable, but still work I'd have to do and test), but also feels a bit unfair for the victim player. The way out of this was a compromise: simply kill off all of the units in the box. This means that casting infest/MC at 59 seconds is weaker than if you cast it at say 52 or 53 seconds, where more units had been moved to the field that you could steal. But you can still cast it at 59 seconds if you're doing it as more of a defensive move to save your temple that is under heavy attack.

By making the optimal time to build specials around the 50-55 mark rather than the 59 second mark introduces more strategy and opportunity for 1 team to beat the other through faking and timing plays. But if it was ideal for all specials to be built at the 59 second mark, then that's what we'd see.

In contrast, with nuke, it is almost always better to cast it at 59 seconds because it removes all the enemy units outright from the spawning box: there's never any real reason to delay it like there is with the infestation/MC specials. By making it damage units to 5% HP/shields, it is now much less important to nuke ASAP and it can be delayed more, creating more strategy. Also I felt that nuke was in some ways still a bit too strong, given it's price compared to the other specials. I'll note that if the enemy units get onto the field, then the area directly behind the temple they will get 20% hp/shields, while the ones left in the spawn box will be at 5%, so it's still advantageous to do it ASAP.

Couple of changes I can make in this angle: any units in the spawn box may have their energy set to 0%, and destroy any medivac dropships on the field as well as in the backup spawning box for the enemy, to stop nuke-damaged units from being healed back up to full health. Also tempted to increase the damage the nuke does to the temple a little bit.

Nuke does 3,000 damage. The temple has 35,000 HP. It therefore takes 12 nukes to kill the temple outright. Assuming there are 50 hp boxes (never counted), then it would usually do 4 boxes worth of damage.

As for nuke doing more or less damage compared to other specials: if my MC is countered within 2 seconds by an infestation, then my MC'd units are lucky to have done even 200 damage to the temple in that short period. Also the temple has 12 armor, so many units will do very little damage to the temple: marines, marauders, roaches, hydralisks, immortals, ghosts, reapers, wraiths, scouts, carriers, vultures, etc. There are clearly some very good units to steal with MC/infest: reavers, archons, tanks, ultralisks (range is an issue), guardians, void rays, banshees. If you use MC against an army that is comprised of the weaker units, it won't do much damage at all, while a nuke will do a guaranteed 3,000. If you use infestation against an army that comprised of the weaker units, then a lot of them should be exchanged into brood lords, swarm guardians and banelings, and this is what makes infestation materially different from MC. But again if your MC/infestation gets countered within a couple of seconds, you still won't do as much damage to the temple as nuke will. Note that there is a very small window in which any other special being cast will prevent the nuke from doing any damage, in practice I see this maybe once every 20 games, usually when another terran is also using nuke because they've gone at the same time (see discussion of 59 vs 52 seconds earlier).

So there are many times when nuke will do much more damage to the temple than an infest or an MC would. Another issue is when you're going up against a terran that has invested a lot of money into tanks and other add-ons: they can refund them, leaving your MC/infestation with few units to steal. Still another is a clever player who built lots of archons or reavers destroying their own buildings late in the game to specifically prevent the other team from stealing them with infest/MC: this strategy is worthless vs a terran that does damage via nuke.

Finally you must consider that fact that nuke is simply a lot cheaper than the other specials, particularly MC, and that the terran can refund buildings to finish the game off. It's not uncommon to have 3v3 games mostly be a long war of attrition that is finally won by a terran nuke.

The refunds are very less than they use to be. Green lifted of like 50 tank addons an got like 4k-5k of refund back or lesser an it wasn't enough for him to have enough money to keep nuking as he would have to make a whole lot more than 50 tank addons. I suppose you can set a trigger for wraiths or/and goliaths(like 30 of them)to fend off against the remaining air units like if there is 500 of them that plunge towards your temple. People usually mc/infest at like zero or a bit later to take full advantage of terran so terran wont push after countering a mc/infest with a nuke. If wraiths or goliaths spawn automatically right after you make a nuke to counter the enemy mc/infest they can push against the remaining air units that will deal massive damage to the night def or temple

Note: I was blue while green lifted his tank addons

Sounds like you're basing a lot of your discussion off individual games, rather than across many games.

Also the point to Terran refunds is not to refund your army so you have enough to "keep nuking", it's a potential strategy to use if you get your enemy down to only a few bars left and you want to quickly and decisively end the game.

IIRC tank addon costs $495, refund is 66% so "lifting 50" would give you refunds for $16,335, sufficient for 2.72 nukes in double mineral rate. Or tank addon might be $555, in which case it would be $18,315 and barely enough for 3 nukes. Certainly that could easily be game ending, especially if you use each nuke to counter any MC/infest the enemy does.

Is it possible to make nuke to reduce the enemy energy to 5%?
Even though all the enemy units have 5% hp/shields, the corsairs would cast disruptive web so most of my ground units can't push towards the temple. Not to mention those high templars casting storms on my clumped-up air units so that my terran army can't even beat the protoss army that has 5% hp/shield.

5% energy might as well be 0% energy for the amount that is required for spells in general (I think the cheapest is restore at something like 30 energy).

If it were possible, I would make it subtract 50% of current energy, or even just -100 flat energy, but unfortunately the triggers only allow you to *set* energy to a certain value. I could potentially set energy on a unit type by unit type basis, which actually wouldn't be too awful to do, I might consider this. The problem, even with setting it on a UT by UT basis is that if a unit had say 10 or 20 energy because it just cast spells, setting it back up to 50% of energy is a net bonus to it, while being a clear negative to other units that had 100% energy already.

But I don't want to wipe out energy completely for the units on the field, that just seems a bit 'strong' to me - if you attack an archon it can still defend itself, although it won't have much HP left, but it doesn't seem fair that if you attack a high templar it can't storm back? I have no problem with setting energy to 0% for the units that are still stuck in the spawn box, though.

Interestingly the Protoss are the only race that don't have any sort of direct unit caps on any of their spell casters; whereas Terran has got caps on sci vessals, medics and ghosts, and the Zerg has caps on queens and defilers which are their only true spellcasters; no cap on devourer's though. However behind the scenes there are actual limits on the protoss spell casters (I've mentioned this many times before), such as every 2nd Dark Archon spawned after the 5th one starts with 100% energy and will therefore use Feedback instead of Mind Control (ref AI ability requirements post), every 2nd corsairs after the 6th starts with enough energy for only 1 dweb cast instead of 2, etc.

just make corsairs unable to use web by setting there energy to 0 and there shouldn't be a problem?

Um, what? I seriously don't know if you're being genuine or trolling, because 80% of what you post in this thread is strange or silly.

Setting energy to 0% for the units that are still stuck in the spawn box sounds like a fair compromise.

The reason I was saying this issue was that even though the nuke partially MCs the units that are close my temple, and combined with my terran army that has spawned, it cannot defeat the enemy army not because my spawn sucks or the enemy spawn is too good, but because of those freshly-spawned spellcasters that really delay my push or even defeat my army even with 5% hp/shields. I totally understand the purpose and the strength/weakness of the nuke, but it shouldn't be weak to the point that the MC'ed units combined with my spawn cannot defeat the leftover enemy units in the field!

I realize the nuke is not meant to be one-sided steamroll on my favor because nuke is too inexpensive for that, but it also shouldn't be my army getting steamrolled b/c of the spell by the enemies.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jan 30 2012, 6:25 am by HSL....

No use arguing with the nuke. Lanthanide just wants it to damage the temple and nothing more. It is not made to counter zerg and protoss special. Maybe Lanthanide hasn't played 1v1 to see how one sided the fight if one is terran and the other is zerg or protoss. That fight can translate to 2v2 or 3v3 if your enemies are all terran. This game is more or less becoming about zerg and protoss because many are saying nuke is weak. Then for 2v2 or 3v3 no team could just choose all terran and win, but any team can choose all zerg or all protoss and would probably win. Every fight then should be a combination of race with terran, zerg, and protoss. By the way you can win using 2 terran or 3 terran just against newbies.

@ Hellfire, you're stupid as fukk for asking him about disabling web just cause you suck against toss. Anyways I've come across a "DS 2.54" created by whatever retard an toss is overpriced an immortals an reavers an dark archons are limited. But I still won with my friend however. I thought it was from you at first Lanth but I never saw anything about 2.54 on staredit an it looked like an old modified version to me of a ripoff to toss and an increase for terran

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I fully agree with your point@ Hellfire(even though I would've been nicer, would just call him a troll and left it at that.). As for the replay, I have an odd feeling this is someone's way of protesting our points.

Um, please explain to me how the old nuke was better at countering zerg and protoss special than the new nuke. I await your detailed explanation. I've already given mine.

Actually the praise for the 'new' nuke has outweighed complaints by about 4 to 1.

Oh noes, random "facts" made up by someone who can't comprehend that they actually have to play differently when the rules of the game change!

Lets all try a new troll idea for the Terran's special and put it to a vote!

Change it so that when you use the special, all of your computer ally units on your side of the map are given to the enemy instead, and all enemy units on their side of the map are given to you. It'll be a Reverse Nuke! Keep the Nuke BC but remove mines.

Haha, that could be quite fun actually. Swap armies entirely! I guess you'd want to somehow destroy your own army first, so the enemy doesn't get an advantage.

So I'd need to implement reverse-booms too, instead of killing enemies on your side of the map, they kill your own units! Because I'm already using civilians for booms, it seems like there are 3 options I could take for this:
1. Civilians will randomly, 50% of time, give you a reverse boom instead of a normal one
2. Terran civilians will always give you a reverse boom, while P and Z civilians give you regular ones
3. Use one of the critters as a reverse boom, and all players start with 1 civilian and 1 critter. Note: bringing a critter to the boom beacon, whether accidentally or purposefully, will result in a reverse boom.

Which is best? I'm partial to #2. I need to make sure that the Terrans can make the best of their new nuke ability, and #1 and #3 might punish Protoss and Zerg players too much (my favourite races!!!).

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jan 30 2012, 9:31 pm by Lanthanide.

Problem with number 2 is that Terran's booms won't be useful until the special wars begin, they'll be one level weaker from trying to push in the beginning. I'd go with number 1, half the chance your boom will be a reverse boom! People WILL RAEG! For number 3, it's probably the most legit one.

lol I felt like trolling Hellfire cause what he asked Lanth to do, was very downright stupid I can be an asshole but I'm also fair but when people say stupid shiit like that which pisses me off I am a bad person lol, infact I guess I can just be considered a villain. *From the darkside*

Ok. On the past versions when you use nuke, automatically the enemy would also use special infestation or mc because if he didn't he has no army spawning next round because of mines placed on spawning point and automatically he has no units or very few units left to defend the next spawn.

And when you changed that on previous versions it became situational when stealing units near temple. The enemy's army should be near the temple when you use nuke and all spawns or most spawns are gone so its good because the enemy would be required to use specials too.

But on 2.49 when you use nuke, there are many enemy units remaining on the field so the terran army can't push the enemy as said previously with units using specials and some can fight back. What i'm saying is your enemy doesn't need to use special now so he can save more later. That means the enemies chance of winning became 2-1 instead of even because he will have 2 specials while you have one, now on the succeeding turns it would become 3-1 then what will happen? It automatically signals defeat if the enemy has 3 specials and you just have one, then you'll say boom? but he also has boom, insta spawn? he also has that. Terran couldn't push enemy units so what could be the outcome? If its 2 terran they needed 2 specials to counter 1 infestation or 1 mc.

My suggestion, what if nuke steals enemy units near the temple and destroy all enemy units and lower the damage on the temple.
Or maybe just destroy all enemy units and lower the damage on the temple, that would help a lot and nuke would live up to its name. Or if you don't want to make the field empty just revert back to nuke on 2.48 which i think was better.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jan 30 2012, 10:23 pm by coolglaze.

All I said was to set energy to 0 on Corsairs when nuke is used. How am I an idiot for saying that? please explain.