This just happened to me. ImSoFly- and NinjaOtis played a 2v3, they ended up with summoner and assault. He also had about 2000 exp by rines, since we didnt have any way to slow down his exp gain. They started out by trying to lose all gates so summoner could train everywhere. They ended up getting one because we just refused to cap it. By the time rines got here, summoner had like 60 armor upgrades. Even with assault eliminated, there was no way we could beat the summoner.

I thought of an idea of putting spawn upgrade back, while keeping this enemy spawn up. That way, if one team ups the other teams spawn too much, they can be punished by having 15 hydras popping out of every gate instead of 15 broods. Without the spawn number upgrade for your own team, you probably wont see as many spawn rushes as before.

That's actually a good idea. Dunno if I'll actually use it still because i don't want spawn to have a large of a role as it has had.

Upping spawn just ruins game, it gets too out of hand, with the feed and what not. Honestly its boring

I think for DM vs DM, one DM has to use l4 on the other DM's partner for it to mess up. At least, that's what happened to me.

Yes! This can be great!

Yes, because upping to hydras against Summoner is going to work.

It's not like that, the idea to punish the opponent team with some super spawns if they upgraded their enemy's # too much is a tempting idea. Maybe not upping spawn level, but spawning one wave of super strong units? The more spawns you spawn, the more uber strong units come out-----e.g. reavers. So if you don't up spawn numbers, no reaver, up it once, 1 reaver per gate, up it twice? 2 reavers per gate. That'll severely punish the opponent team who up it 10 times for the summoner.

BTW Replay of us over upping spawn for summoner:

Attachments:

Is that even TS? Upping spawn so that reavers come out of gates? What?

After playing many games I agree with most of the sentiment here. Upgrading the spawn for the other team makes no sense and it kind of ruins the game. The changes to the heroes are awesome. Rine l3 might be a tad powerful (but granted I did have 30 ups most of the time). I like the idea of making buildings and spawn stronger, but realize spawn now is just cannon fodder with no real purpose but to be filler and annoy the pathing algorithms.

Just an idea... Instead of costing us hero levels for upgrading that stuff why not just make a separate leveling system that deals with the computer controlled stuff, like spawn hp, building shields, and even spawn upgrades. Either have it player controlled or randomly selected... But tie it to what the spawn does. The spawn should have its own exp system and should get stronger besides just getting a new unit as the game progresses.

Also, the extra sims do now play as big as a role as what I think they should, anyone have any ideas on how to draw out the battles away from the spawn feeding points and to these resource points for more dynamic gameplay? One could possibly offer a small defensive option for grabbing the sim (not a cannon), like a bunker. This means grabbing sims will not be only for resources, but also for power control. At the beginning of the game there would not just be a dash for the outposts, but also for the all the sims on the frontier, trying to expand one teams borders. This makes skirmishes much more common throughout the entire map. Worth thinking about.

Sonds good. But again, big change here, people might not like it if we do it all of a sudden.

That was absolutely blamsberry on my side there, forget what I said, darn me.

There's good change, and there's bad change. A lot of the hero changes are good changes.

Due to the popularity of TS I think we're going to have to step up our quality control. It is played commonly by many many people. CAFG, and others who are making this, IMHO you're going to have to get a group of dedicated testers (read: good players) that can meet at regular intervals to quality test and try to find exploits among other things BEFORE it is released. This means no map leaks to the public. That way, when changes are given to the public they are at least balanced.

Not all of the sudden, a very step-by-step approach can be used. Don't change everything at once, change things one by one and balance. Longer, but more effective. Which is why a dedicated testing group would be required to test a lot.

I believe that's what people in favor of Spawn leveling said, but it was shot down by most everyone. How is your argument any different? Now that's a double standard if I've ever seen one. Perhaps it's because the spawn is not directly pounding one's face into the ground, some are fine with the way this spawn always wins games, but were against spawn leveling.



That's exactly what I think, and feel. It makes no sense at all, and it's completely pointless to me. Especially since before, people complained about spawn leveling was too powerful and what the game was all about. The solution to the spawn question? Level up your opponents spawn count so that spawn still determines who wins. That makes no sense either.

Because if you ask me, separate hero selections is the one thing that can balance the spawn more then anything. Because you can't rush the ones that are easiest to EXP with or easiest to cap gates while the choices left to the opponent are ones that cannot capture as well due to the match ups. Yeah, this still winds up applying now, but all that was done was take the spawn from one part of the spectrum to the complete polar opposite end of the issue. 1: Spawn too strong, kills easily, what determines matches too often. 2: Spawn isn't strong, can't level it, doesn't kill much, determines matches still. You're basically in the same spot as before, but on a different perspective. I think some of the arguments before is that TS is a Hero based game, so Spawn shouldn't have anything to do with anything. If this is the solution, you should just take spawn out all together (besides controlling where the spawn goes). I would rather spawn leveling still be in, but a more extensive look at balancing it be attempted.

Perhaps this could be done. The spawn level increases x2 as fast, but each time, only half of the spawn count changes to the next level. So, half the time, half broods turn to lings. By the time it normally went to lings, it would now be all lings. Make spawn leveling work the same, except make it 3 civs per upgrade. That way to jump to rines, it would take 12, which is too much if you ask me, but it's a step in the right direction then just totally taking spawn leveling out and adding something that's the polar opposite, doesn't make much sense, while still effects the game play just as much as leveling spawn did.

@Special Ops; I think it's fine. Really all it ever could do to get a threatening presence in battle was go HP/Power rine. And even then, with teamwork it could get toppled handily. It's team support options were basically just Assiming and mining the map for summoner control.

L3 actually lets it have a real reason to go mana and spells. Now at least Ops isn't totally useless against DM and Mutant can no longer just stick to it's measly 600+ HP with and run L3 and get away with it, as the player would have to consider that L3 into his game plan. Ops now isn't next to useless against Assault. It also offers Ops a unique niche that the L3 and L2 provide for it's team, helping to keep certain heroes somewhat at bay. The changes to Ops means that certain heroes can't just do one thing against a certain hero without a second thought just because it works great against Ops too. L3 for Ops actually gave it a presence where there was more to facing it then just the simple "Okay, we have a stunner, Ops is checked." I think that helps relegate it to more useful positions. Even if it is a little too good, almost every hero has something that's a little "too good". And besides, it is a L3 spell.

If you change anything, I'd say maybe just monkey around with the damage of it. Try keeping the upgrades the same, but lowering the base attack. Lessening the upps on it, something like that. Or perhaps giving it only two shots, but increase the damage a bit to make up for that. I can't remember the exact stats of it right now. Was it something like 50+8?

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jun 1 2010, 6:20 pm by LoXs. Reason: For more edits!

The theme behind upping enemy spawn is to add a level of strategy that I see in other games like dota, or hero wars where a player is rewarded for doing more with less. Like in hero wars, if you don't need more than a for upgrades to do what you want, you can basically collect interest on your unused money by purchasing banks. This means that for the next 5 minutes your down 200 ore of upgrades to your opponents, but in 5 minutes it pays for itself, and from then on you are making interest.

This is what I aimed for with enemy spawn upping. Unfortunately I goofed the trigger so it gives each lane +3, instead of just +1, so I still don't have an accurate measure for the balance of this. It will only give +1 now, and will cost (4) instead.

I hate it when I'm mech and have 7 ups, and really don't want to get anymore until lings. I feel like I should have an option to play with the bare minimum I need, and get some kind of reward for it later on in the game.

Flame/Discuss

Do more with less? I disagree.

That's a flaw in those games to try to encourage players to be less aggressive. The game is the most fun when players are aggressive. Being content and just feeding on spawn is boring and should be frowned upon. This isn't a defense game, it is a vs. game. You're supposed to go out and eliminate the other players. Less emphasis on spawn killing, more emphasis on player killing plz, or at least more exciting gameplay, like having sim battles.

That's the problem then. This is Temple Siege. Not DotA or Custom Hero Wars. I only ever play Temple Siege, and I've only played those others enough times to figure it out using my fingers. CHW to me is just not that fun, because there's hardly any meat on the bone, i.e. game play depth. All you do is pick your Hero, Spells, then grind for the rest of the game until you kill the enemy base, or the opponents leave. You can't do anything with the heroes except upgrade. I'd consider DotA better then CHW, in that you don't only grind, and you can kind of customize the build of your hero with the HP/attack/mana upgrading. The problem though, is that the spells aren't too balanced, and after a bit it gets boring because the game play really starts to repeat very quickly, and if you get behind EXP wise, it's borderline impossible to catch up. But of course, that's not to say you shouldn't try things out from other games that could possibly make TS a better game.

And that's also a good point @ Sacrieur. Those games get pretty repetitive. CHW, when it's time to battle, they usually always go the same way each time match up wise. It just gets bland too quickly for my taste. Same with DotA, in that it's kind of hard to stage a comeback when you get behind by a decent amount.

TS is great, because there's great diversity in the spells, despite only being 4 per hero, while each hero has at least 2-3 common builds to use, and even more depending on what you like/find to be effective. It was always a great mix between melee fighting and spell casting. In DotA, melee attacking is pretty pointless later in the game, while that's not always the case. What makes TS even better, is the fact that some characters can't touch others at all (Which is why, people, TS is at its best when played 3v3). TS doesn't need to have things those other two have, because it doesn't need it. TS is it's own thing, based on the same principle, sure. And it also has one key difference that ultimately make it better. You have lives. There's two ways to win, both happening often, and most of the time happening quickly. It's also great because the game can kick you in the hind-quarters and make you kick up your game, because plenty of times someone with one life comes back and takes out two, possibly even three other people to win it.

All that being said, if it is toned down I think you probably could add that, if it increases it by a lesser amount. Atleast a cost of 3-for-1 would probably better if it adds it to every lane lane. Four might be a tad expensive, but that's a perfect thing to test. One thing that I think might be better, is have it be like the old way. It only increases the spawn for the "lane you control", so middle spawns for enemy middle, etc. 3-2, 4-2 could be the cost that way maybe. Unless it would add 2 per lane if you control more then one spawn civ. I also think you should put the spawn leveling back in, and maybe integrate my idea about when leveling, it just increases half the spawn if that would work, and then just make it three civs per upgrade. That way it would take 6 to boost it to a whole level of lings, and so on. Or if you only did it once (3 broods, 3 lings), when it's the natural jump it would go to 3 lings-3-rines. That could add a little more diversity in how it works perhaps. It's worth a shot.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jun 1 2010, 9:26 pm by LoXs. Reason: Edith Reasons

http://www.staredit.net/files/2220/

Finally fixed DM lv4. Upping E. spawn only gives +1 instead of +3 like it was supposed to, and it now costs 4. Temple heal no longer has a cool down, unless your base only has 1 warp gate spawner standing.

If spawn upping is still rigged after all this, it's gone.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jun 1 2010, 9:36 pm by ClansAreForGays.

Finally the some people with sense and sanity have spoken. Time to elaborate.
(NOTE: NO NOOB ZONE NOW IN EFFECT)

Bottom line is, any type of spawn cheese tactic should be taken out. Upping enemy spawn is ridiculous and should not even be an option. Against any team with half a brain, there will be some broken setups doing this. Just eliminate it completely. As far as using spawn to kill someone, it is impossible against a solid well built team it wont happen. I'm going to repeat it again, using spawn to kill someone is tactical, for example, the Lone DT who can still 1v3 your team or the Godly exp LM who cannot be killed PvP. Usually, you dont "Up Spawn" you build spawn to kill enemy.

On another note, there should be no cooldown period on temple heal. Just eliminate it completely. There are so many heroes, that once at your temple and you cannot heal and have 0 mana, will 1shot you. Just take it out completely. If you are encouraging players to siege then there are units who can do this very easyliy without the 7second heal cooldown, otherwise its just broken and Heroes like Ling and LM who take a long time to get powerful are owned.

Cooldown period is removed in the latest version.

Unsure if this is intended.

When either team caps the mid with the sims, the sims go to the team that captured it. However, if the same happens to the top, the top sim does not transfer to the capping team. I don't know about the bot though.