Scientific point of fiew dictates that there is a reason, perhaps not yet studied, for everything. God is just one of the possible answers, so it is just as superfluous as any other idea you may suggest. And again, saying that 'it just was' accomplishes nothing.

You're missing my point. Which is the following: suggesting ideas that create more questions that give answers is useless at best. Multiple universes is one of hose ideas.

Yes - but the Christian God, or gods in general, are not any more viable than any other of the, if I might say so boldly, literally infinite other possible resolutions.

I think that both you and zany_001[RCDF (http://www.staredit.net/196684/ - They are similar responses) are both missing the point. Lets say that its an absolute truth that god exists, just for the hell of it (The nugget is in the box). George is certain that there is no god. George can only be george, he cannot "zoom out" and see the objective truth (that there is indeed a nugget in the box, or that god does really exist). His certainty becomes truth. Subjective truth as a whole, but absolute in his eyes. In the mind of george, god does not exist. With that said, you cannot be anyone but yourself.

Exactly! The idea of God is no more ridiculous than anything else you may suggest.

By saying "It doesn't really matter", I meant it doesn't matter either other individuals believe it or not. Of course it matters greatly for one self. You live your life based on your own beliefs, gods and opinions. But it shouldn't matter if George believes in the same god you do or in any god at all. Otherwise you're justifying the crusade, killing people just because they believe in the same god, in a different way.

I myself do not believe in god as a divine watching over my life. But I greatly respect individuals who do, because by believing in something so hard, they manifest their own god that guides their life, in a certain way. The power of human brain is far beyond our understanding.

P.S. Oh and I am deeply sorry JaFF, by education I meant to look over our differences and not to repeat the dark age mistakes.

Just because something creates more questions than it answers isn't alone grounds for stating that that something is useless. What really makes ideas like this to being useless is that they have no sound basis; they are based off of metaphysics; they have no evidence; they are purely ideas in their entirety. It is possible to say something, or ask a question, that provides more questions than answers, if those questions provided are ones that need be answered. In the case of metaphysical parallel universes, the questions being conjured are even more worthless than the baseless idea the questions spawned from. But I'm sure you already know this, I just wanted to clarify.

My last reply was just providing a different take on the whole thought of parallel universes, and it wasn't portraying any belief of mine that would have conflicted with my ability to see your point.

What if I believe that person A is going to hell, and believe that I am not? What if I believe that if I don't intervene in person A's life, I will go to hell? What if my beliefs force me to impact your life? What if you are wrong, what if your last paragraph is simply your own belief, and only seems true to you? That could possibly mean the difference of heaven and hell for eternity for both you and I.

People's beliefs are key factors in contributing to their physical actions. Religion itself can be a tool used to control people, keep many people focused upon a single goal. To believe that all beliefs are irrelevant is, in my opinion, a false belief.

As for two people believing in different gods and not mattering what god each one believes in: the same argument applies here as well as my last paragraph. What if my god tells me to impact your life in some way?

Beliefs aren't trapped inside each person's own mind without any way to influence the external to the person they reside. They pervade throughout the world in the form of choices, and are apart of every choice anyone has ever made.

So in short, it does matter what you believe in, whether or not the belief is true.

It's called a choice. Your god "says" to you what you think he "says" to you. If you think he "says" to make me believe in the same god and you choose to make me, that's called obsession.

I think trying to prove any right or wrong in this matter is unnecessary. Because you can't really prove anything here, you can just state your opinion. Or try to enforce your opinion on others.

I think neither of the sides is wrong. There is a god for those who believe, there is non for those who does not. But really see the movies.

Well if nothing can be proved in this topic, that would apply to your statement in bold, which shows that the statement (or opinion) is itself contradictory and self-defeating. If nothing could be proven here, then you wouldn't be posting to prove that nothing can be proven here.

I'm not exactly sure as to what you mean by "neither side is wrong", though, not all beliefs can be true, even if you try to assume that they can be true to each person. You're confusing truth with belief, and this is because beliefs can affect you as if they were true. Truth lies outside of beliefs and is independent of them. So yes, in a sense, all beliefs are "true" to each believer, but in reality it's really that all beliefs can affect one as if they were true.

If two beliefs are mutually exclusive, and two people believe in different beliefs pertaining to that mutual exclusion, then one of them must be wrong and the other one right, as there are no other options between those two during mutual exclusion. An example would me believing that you are wrong. You are either right in your opinion, or you are wrong, there is no other option. As you see, we can't both actually be right (due to mutual exclusion), although, each of our beliefs can affect ourselves as if they were true, which does not inherently mean that a belief is so.

What? From what you've written down here, it looks like, whatever I will say you will say I'm wrong because you believe I'm wrong in the root, not from what I say. You see, I'm not even arguing, I accept your faith, I think your right. If you still think I'm wrong, then you think that you're wrong as well, because I think you're right.

In reality it is as I said. There really is a god for the believers, I've seen it, I've seen how god changes people lives and does almost miracles and stuff. Not all that Jesus and St.Maria BS, but like a real god. On the other side I've seen really godless people and they live their lives without god, not affected at all. That is enough "evidence" for me to say that there is a god if you do do believe, and there is non if you don't.

But since you aren't getting my idea, I guess it's useless for you in your experience. Sorry mate.

I think, based on the last few posts that if God exists- then he does. If he doesn't, then he doesn't. I agree with Cecil more. Because when we talk about existence, there is only one answer. But when we talk about what we know, then we don't know anything- because we might be living in the Matrix, as mind slaves of a super advanced robotic race. You, nor anyone probably would never be able prove that though. So, It is entirely pointless to 'scientifically, logically, reasonably' speak about God or anything alike- all except for your beliefs.
And saying it is logicless, nor unreasonable is just plain stupid.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Dec 18 2009, 8:53 am by BeDazed.

What is this one answer and how do we know about the existence?
I do not like your type of skepticism because I could easily say You are not me so how do you know what I know?
I will use your matrix analogy: I could be an agent of the matrix and know the truth. Or perhaps I am outside the matrix and I know the truth and logic is upheld
I could know something, It is not what WE know but what you know. To assume that I do not know seems foolish.

In my opinion, I believe that there is a god, but rather than him being here on earth watching our every movement, he started everything (Big Bang Theory), and has been watching it all play out. There may or may not be a heaven or hell, Thats something I'll find out when I'm dead 87 years from now.

For existence, there can only be 2 ways and one answer that I can comprehend, nor can everybody else. One is 'is', and 'isn't'. And there are no both. So thus, there can only be one answer. That is one axiom Humans take for granted.

Also when you talk about 'God', 'Ultimate Being' or anything alike, knowing isn't just enough. Say, even if you did know- how could you ever prove either? Then it is just as illogical to say God doesn't exist as much as vice versa. I don't know that you don't know, and I don't know whether you are human, a stupid talking dog, or a bunny with exceptional brains, or God, or an Agent within the matrix, or a person outside the Matrix. Which in that case, if you were really God or the ones that are possible to prove oneself- then you would be able to prove your existence, or prove that you really know something.
The point is, we know nothing unless somebody properly proves something. And it is not I, nor you that matters within 'we' unless you have proof for all. Then it is really just your beliefs. And that's really how far our logic goes.

What is logic anyway? Isn't it a tree of ordered thoughts within the human brain? How perfect is our brain anyway? Well, not assuming that you're Human- nor a stupid talking dog, or a bunny with an exceptional brain- but you'd have to prove that there is another sentient life form capable of communicating with 'Humans' on Earth. Anyways, logic takes part in a lot of things we do, including daily Homeworks, talking to your friends, with more or less 'logic'- but still is logic because it is our ordered thoughts however fucked up that 'order' is anyways.

So, we are Human, as an axiom on Earth- unless you want to, or can prove otherwise. There is no other life on Earth that is sentient 'enough', then Humans. Because of that, we assume you are Human. Because you are speaking a Human language. But as though Humans are so full of themselves in this tiny world, puny, small, and on the edge of galaxy would be probably unwise to say that logic can confirm everything, nor reason, nor science. Of course, it is the best possible choice we have, but you can't say it is everything. But hey, we get over our heads daily- so it shouldn't really bother us.

That is definitely a point of view that has the possibility to be true. Did you come to this conclusion because there seems to be a lack of "god's will" happening throughout the world?

Hmm, if god were perfect, then he could have set the universe up so that all of his "will" would be carried out from the moment it all started, to where he actually could "sit and watch". The biggest problem with the idea that god is just watching his creation, is that it assumes that he is bound by time -which he shouldn't be if he is all powerful. So to assume that god set up the world at one point in time, and watches it the rest of time, is to assume that god is abiding by the rules of time, which he very well may not want to do.

I came to that conclusion after studying the Big Bang theory a little, what caused that explosion to start the universe? What created the first mass? That, is where some form of god came in. As you say, God doesn't have to abide to time. He has his own universal remote as a way of putting it, he can fastforward to what he wants to see, slow down to watch things in perspective, and even rewind to watch things over again. Hes not only watching earth, hes watching the universe itself all at once. If you look at the bigger picture, Earth is like a single pixel in a 10000 ft by 10000 ft image. Earth is a single byte out of a billion bytes, we're so small compared to everything that is out there, would the god watching everything even have a reason to focus on us? But thats my thoughts, don't know about everyone else. There is something there, for sure.

Ah ok, so your thinking similarly to how I do. Well, I think a more proper question would be: Why would god create us and then ignore us? If he were perfect, why would he be so cruel as to neglect us for something else?

And about the fast forwarding and such, it would be better to think in the 4th dimension, as in, god would be in all times all the time, and even be when time didn't exist.

Of course, the view that the universe needs a cause to come into existence relies on the premise that time is linear. What if time weren't linear? What if the universe is a never ending cycle, and time is but an illusion (like walking in circles). If that were the case, then the universe wouldn't need an original cause.

Since we are going into dimensional and Big Bang Theory talk, let us be reminded that we have no evidence that the Universe even has a limitation to it's expanse. Is it just the universe or are is there something before the universe that collects up what we call the universe now. And if there was a god, did he intend for us to explore? Did he consider us rejects and just try again somewhere else?

I do not believe in a god, no. Is there some kind of weird force out there? I say maybe. I mean, it's kind of boring to just think of ourselves as the bi-products of gas an amazingly long time ago.

So, in my answer to, is there a god? The only thing I can give you is that: I doubt we, or the rest of humanity in the time to come after we're long dead, will ever know.

Or master of all that is, all that isn't, all of dimensions, and all that we cannot even imagine, or comprehend. So he could be in every possibilities there can be too.

That is not necessarily true. It would be like the universe is a rock, in space. But that rock cannot move without force, but once it has been 'forced' to move, it will move eternally unless another force intervened to stop, or change course.

Well, God could have created 'us', but there is a good possibility that he thought didn't really feel the need to intervene anymore. Like some optimists say, better world tomorrow than today. Who knows? We might just be able to converge on perfection 'someday', so because of the way it turned out to be, he didn't need to intervene. He already saw it coming didn't he? But that's just wild speculation.

vvv

This can be a double-edged statement. If Christian belief is in God, which can't be proven or disproven, the same can be said for Atheists and other people who don’t believe in God. Your belief is that there is no God. No matter how much experimenting and “proving” or “disproving” you may do, you will never be able to prove or disprove God’s existence. It amazes me how so many people like you can believe in something that can’t be proven or disproven.

As for my point of view, I think people try to make God seem a whole lot more than he really is. Sure he may be all powerful, but by no means is he perfect.

Take for example, The Great Flood. God lost faith in humanity, therefore he sent a Flood. If he had created the perfect creature, he wouldn’t have sent the Flood. Also remember that Moses convinced God to not destroy Israel, and this shows that God is someone who can change their mind from perhaps a bad decision.

I believe all this hate towards believers of God is because many of them promote God as the most perfect and all-knowing entity, and try to push their beliefs of this “perfect” God onto others who questioned God’s existence, when by no means is God perfect.
I think those who weren’t sure of God’s existence, perhaps may have wanted time to think about God, were angered by this and chose to push aside God as a belief, and generation by generation we get more and more Atheists, to the point that children are born into not believing in God.

It’d be easier for everyone in the world if we could simply think about God logically. Religion is one of the leading causes of war, because people just can’t seem to think before they act, only can they follow blindly. Disagreements between which belief is right, then you get arguments, such as war or even the discussion we’re having here on staredit.net.

It upsets me how people frown upon the Christian and Catholic community, simply because of people who can’t think. I openly and full-heartedly believe in God, but I like to think of him logically. I wouldn’t want to be pressured into believing God out of fear. Considering God has feelings and decision making, do people really think that God would want them to love him out of fear? That’s another problem I see with beliefs and religion, they send the wrong message and scare people into thinking “if you don’t love Jesus you’ll go to Hell”; then once again we have people who follow blindly.
(I don’t believe in religion. I think it’s a profit-machine taking advantage of one of the most popular aspects of people’s lives which is belief.)
If I love God, then I’ll love God; but I refuse to be scared by Him simply because people believe that’s how it should be.

In the end, I’ll let God choose whether I made the right decision with my beliefs; letting things come as they come, and not going out of my way to “love” him; but I’m going to live life to it’s fullest, and make sure I live a good and happy life.



If you’ve read this far, or maybe if you’ve simply skipped to the end of my post for a tl;dr, you must be wondering what this rant was for and what my point must be.

I don’t know.

I guess I’m just trying to show that there are people who can think for themselves and don’t follow religion blindly. I’m trying to show that not all people are so set in their ways that no matter how much evidence and reasoning you give us, we will not change.
There are people who think for themselves, but the majority of the God-believing community is full of “stupid” people. I just want every Atheist and non-believer to respect us a little more, because it’s unfair to the small group who believe in God and can think.

Ah man, I just realized this the other day and I wanted to post it.
An alternate tl;dr version of his post:
God can't be proved
God can't be disproved
We can't be sure of God's existance.
Ergo both theism and atheism are illogical, only agnosticism is logical.
After you accept agnosticism, it's pretty much a matter of believing what you want.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Dec 19 2009, 11:50 pm by dumbducky.