Yeah. Warrior lvl3 is probably best for that. But to kill, you still need a teamup because of mech changing forms. Warrior does a lot of damage but not enough for both bike mode AND mech mode.

How are you leveling this Spec Ops on round 1 without stim? The math you're using is on the assumption that this guy got a loan on his stim. That's not how TS works. 58 damage on a Spec Ops isn't as amazing as you think it is. I've seen 40 damage on a Spec Ops before the first night and when you've got no health while you're at it you don't last long. I think you're stuck on the idea of 1.5 where the Spec Ops has a stunning ability. Remember he doesn't have that in 1.4? A +4 Spec Ops without stim is about as likely to go on a killing spree day 1 as an Assault is to prepare nuke by the end of round 1. Oh sure if you killed 5 people in a row and captured a couple of bases and exped all day and all night long you could do it. Are we likely to see this?

Mech is countered by a Summoner, a Warrior with L3, and an Archer. You can't micro swarm, you can't micro the world's best stun, and you certainly can't micro a Hunter Killer with a Goliath. Let alone that Hunter Killer packing Mutalisks with him. That's what a counter is. I've seen AMAZING micro skills. If you're playing a Warrior or a Mut on round one against that, yeah that sucks. Then again, when you're team mates are both noobs, it doesn't matter that much. On the other hand, I can kill a Mech round one using Mut. So I don't know what you guys are complaining about.

The day I see an Archon outrun a Sci Vessel through a zergling pack is the day Volt is ready to 1v1 that Spec Ops. It's never going to happen.

What you're saying can also be done by anyone in the game who sees someone destroying base defenses. A Summoner, a Spec Ops, a Mut. They can all get the drop on someone. Hell a Mech can L4 four times at the same time it takes Archer to make half a dozen hydralisks.

You can't convince someone of something that isn't true simply because you say it's right. The LM's L3 is an expensive anti air skill. If you want to use this to kill noobs give it your best shot. A pack of reavers with a combined damage of 1.3k isn't finding itself less useful because it can't trap a mutant stupid enough to enter melee range with the LM. It's impractical, no matter how practical you make it sound.

The lings health should probably be increased if spawn's health is increased. Although 110 health is probably more affordable rather than 160.

Maelstrom, the Mech's L4, the LM's L2, DM's L4 are all totally balanced night attacks then? Anyone of these can kill someone who looks away for 2 seconds. Getting hit by a Mut's L2 simply because it's night is no excuse. L3 is the Mut's only offensive ability against Mech and LM. Don't get me wrong, it's hilarious when you get that one LM who will actually stand directly on the beacon at night. However funny that may be, the chances of that working beyond the first night are very unlikely.

I never said the time frame on the exp all i said was the sooner the better for obvious reasons. Btw just because i said i play 1.5 doesn't mean that is all i play. No i'm not conusing the stun one bit. The rine is pretty much the same as he was before Urine screwed with him and the fbat. Personally i could care less if youve faced a 40 dmg at end of day one with stim. that wasn't what i was driving at. The whole complain about 3 was about it being far to powerful late game. 4 only adds insult to injury. It is highly improbable to go beyond certain dmg amounts due to the cost of these upgrades. 57 vs 98 is quite significant considering the first will never get the second dmg amount. I'm saying with teamate sims and play the rine should be able to survive until he reaches the 58 dmg mark which is only 10 ups. After this is reached it becomes over kill and run away.
hmm i think your basing this off the fact that it's a goliath when most of the time you will be facing a vulture. Vultures are one of the best micro'ers in the game. you can certainly kill a few lings if needed. Vultures are pretty good doger's too and would have no problem dodgin a hunter killer with some mutas which i have seen many times. The warrior's l3 is something you just don't mess with. It has a big range but your l4 has much better dmg. You could always let your self be trapped and fire an l4 while transforming in order to take him out so it isn't really a counter. If your using teamates then that isn't a counter either as it is vs more than 1.

The whole vulnerability of a light mage is because he is imobile. The third spell keeps people who would normally pick on them, on their toes and can help bring them down.
The lings health should probably be increased if spawn's health is increased. Although 110 health is probably more affordable rather than 160.
Hmm didn't know mael storm killed. Learn something new every day. On a more serious note Combine his l3 and l1 and it is unfair. Most heros have little chance when they don't know an attack is coming and the attack is well planned and excuted. Personally i never did like mech's l4 and is another reason why i pref the 1.5 version as it makes them split ups. As for light mages l2 please. If i get hit by that at night the light mage either has prior knowledge of where i am or i'm too stupid to react and run. He moves so slowly that you honestly think hes going to kill me if we notice each other at the same exact time? Even if he has height advantage i should be avoiding those areas at night and fighting near spawn unless i'm hero hunting. Both of those reduce or eliminate dmg i take.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Sep 22 2009, 11:07 pm by Mini Moose 2707. Reason: Maybe it was a compliment, but it's still off-topic.

Mech in BIKE form...archer can't get close. Mutant can get closish but lvl3 isn't going to get enough hits if the mech keeps moving. And mech can just keep away from warrior. Mech HAS no counters. It can die, but not through counters. More through being teamed up on or bad micro, and that's not a counter.

God forbid something turns into a Mech counter of all things!

Some argue that Summoner is automatically balanced because Reavers exist. I'm not convinced.

Speed Upgrade could already cost like 45 with +4 and be balanced.

Depends on the version you're playing. If and when I finish M8, this won't ever be a problem again as the Archer won't be making defenses. Currently, no SCVs exist either.

Goon range enabled since 1.4M5.

Agreed.

Quite possibly the best idea you have posted. I like it.

Note: I have ignored most comments that clearly only relate to 1.4M3 and earlier versions. (ex. "Summoner gets +24" (10 ling max in 1.4M7), "Special Ops has no scaling abilities" (Sniper Rifle)

---

Re: Marine Discussion
I almost want to say that something like 7 + 3 is balanced. The +2 Marine just hasn't proven hismelf competitive since Sniper Rifle was L2. He's also at a disadvantage because of his inability to manual.

Re: Mech Balance
I feel this is being overlooked: Mech: "Oh, hey I'm near death and/or you trapped me?" *casts transform* "Hey look, I'm invincible for a second. Also, I'm not trapped anymore, bye."

Mech still gets stunned by warriors lvl3 if it changes, IIRC. So changing only gives it a little more time to survive. However, he deserves to die if warrior gets close enough to stun.

Agreed totally. I don't think most of the people that think mech has a counter have played against a mech that completely trashes them no matter what they throw at it. It takes Teaming to kill a mech it can't be done solo unless the player isn't very good or he is good but slips up which imo doesn't make him good but mediocre.

A counter should win almost all head on battles provided both players are equal in skill. Even then the counter should win if he has somewhat lesser skill as the point to a counter is to do just that.

go ahead put in a +4 rine i'd love to see what results. I have a feeling that this will create more whining than the changes that have taken place since the bat was screwed with in both m versions and 1.5 version. The First time i remember the whining was when rine in the tournament was considered rigged and the team that got him won because it was +3. Then the bitching resulted when he got lowered to +2 and was considered by most to be one of the worst heros. With +4 and the stim removed and needing to be researched he would be considerably bad at the begining having a hard time killing things and later on would have a hard time not raping everything.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Sep 23 2009, 12:57 am by killer_sss.

Lol a +4 rine wouldn't even be remotely balanced even if it was 1+4.

It would suck early game without stim, granted. After he gets stim, though, the damage would just get exponentially ridiculous.

+3 wasn't the problem. +3 and 4800 HP (or whatever it was) was the problem. It was tankable, and L2/L3 were essentially useless. If you give it +3 and cut the life, in addition to the new spells, that could be fair.


Mech doesn't have a counter, I've said that for a year now. Hydra can beat it early game before Bike Mode because it's faster but gets destroyed by Double L3 or L4, and Bike Mode just avoids it. Volt can beat it by being lame and just sitting in his base until he catches him with an L3->L4. +3 Tank Rine could just outgun it. Nothing else really has a chance unless the Mech is playing dumb, which granted I used to do a lot. Either you kill it before it gets Bike Mode or you get fucked. You need a double team with at least a couple of stuns to take him out, which is much easier said than done.

I never really abused Mech to full potential. If you get a few HP upgrades and save 25 mana, you're pretty much unkillable. I always found it more fun to get 20 weapons upgrades, L3, and 160 mana and then just blast away with low life, though.


And yes, Mech stays stunned through a transformation, but it's unattackable for a bit due to cloak.


I suggested the Machine Shop to balance Mech a while ago. Goliath Range 20, Siege Mode 50 (and make it better), Thrusters 80. I also feel like you should be able to tweak the trigger that transforms the Mech so he isn't able to escape traps. Remove first, then create?

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Feb 24 2023, 12:30 pm by Decency.

You're talking out of your ass here. How is +3 Op in the late game? Compared with just about anything in the game he lacks any sort of burst damage that can bring someone from FH > 0. How exactly is this Op? Against what? You're not defining why it's Op. Why would a team mate sim over a Spec Ops? Who are you defining here? Why would you sim for a Spec Ops? What possible benefit do you get out of this as a group? You're throwing unrealistic situations out of nowhere and stating that Spec Ops is overpowered in a late game when he lacks abilities that are capable of ending a game or even abilities that scale with his damage.

A Mut, a DM, a Warrior, an Archer, a Summoner, a LM, a Mech, all of these guys are more threatening as they gain ups. The worst you ever get from a Spec Ops is a lane block from L4 spam. How is his auto attack threatening compared with that? You're deciding it's Op as if someone is going to stand still without using any abilities to defend themselves. The only class that can't defend himself against a Spec Ops is a LM or a Med on round 1. And that's primarily due to stim.

Utilizing your team mates is part of the game. The point of the Warrior's L3 is it's range making it that much more difficult for the Mech to dodge and to prevent an escape. If you want to go 1v1 then there's no point using L3. You just pump Health and get L2. Mech may be easy to micro with but it's also the fattest and clumsiest unit in the game. If there's anyone who's going to get spawn blocked it's Mech. You don't need a Warrior to kill him in that case. The Warrior is just largely useful against him due to having a large health pool, a balanced damaging ability, and a ranged stun. Otherwise Mut would be a better counter.

Archer is a counter because you can't kill him without using L4, or Siege tanks, in which case the Archer can use mutas on the Goliath or Tank. Whether it's burrowing hydras, using L4 to kill him while he's stuck inside his own L4 or just auto attacking him to death. The Archer covers the Mech better than the Mech covers him. It doesn't mean you can't win. When you're faced against an enemy that can defend and attack you better than you can, that's a counter. Hell all you need to do with Archer is send out your L3 to kill his base at night while he's on the offensive. You don't even have to leave your own base. Higher Exp gain and base defenses that have a high damage ratio against heavy and medium sized units. Why even bother upping your health when you can just build defenses and attack with hydras endlessly?

Spec Ops doesn't win most fights against the Summoner by just rushing the Summoner and trying to auto attack him to death. It's the same with the Archer. Round 1 is just a straight up win Archer Vs. Mech. Until the Mech gets Bike Mode he can't escape death. Beyond that the Archer Exps better as time goes on and has an equally threatening L4 to the Mech. The difference is that the Archer doesn't need to risk himself to win.

As far as Summoner goes, when I lose against a Mech playing Summoner I'll be impressed. Don't get me wrong, Mech is a great support choice to fight against Summoner if you know how to lane block him. It's not going to win you a game unless you have an actual counter to the Summoner. If you're not packing an Assault or a Spec Ops or a Mut then you're in trouble.

I'll test this. And I stand by my statement L2>L3 until I see otherwise. There's no point defending a bad skill simply because it has some use. Archer's L2 has some use, but it's still an overpriced ability.


I didn't say any of those will kill someone. I said if you look away for 2 seconds that's all it takes. One Maelstrom followed up by an L2/L3+L4 and that's all it takes. It's no different with an L2 from Mut. The only way those abilities will get you for certain is if you aren't looking at all. Anyone playing the game correctly isn't going to be crushed by an L2 from a Mut just because it's night. That's for sure. More so to the point, the Mut's L2 is probably the least threatening of all the abilities stated considering it has the smallest range of effectiveness. Yeah it's great if someone is banging their head against the keyboard as they pass out. Otherwise I'm relying on Mael, Curses, Reavers, Lurks or Barrage.

An LM even in the corner of your vision can L2 and get you if you're not looking carefully. This is just less noticeable at night as with all HKos abilities. I reason here again that Spec Ops isn't up on this list because his damage is a joke. He's the last person you'll see coming out of the corner of your vision ready to kill you in 2 seconds. Hell, Med can at least Disable. There's a game ender for a Volt and an Assassin at the very least. Mech too if you've got an Assassin.

Fenix attacks faster than a normal goon. The range isn't all that important since you use them as a trapper primarily. The problem was the damage of the ability. Compare it to his L1 and it doesn't even make him immune to damage or give him any sort of defenses. It's like using L1x2 for 105 gas.

Hey don't get me wrong either, as far as Spec Ops goes, it would be great if he had Sniper Rifle. But, until he has an ability that even comes close to burst, he could use higher base damage. Consistency at the very least would be nice if he lacks the ability to really bring someone down. His L2 and L3 do suck pretty badly. Although I do find them useful a lot more often than I would like to admit personally.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Sep 23 2009, 4:26 am by Crackhead.

If Spec Op's was made stim upgradable, that means you are replacing jim raynor with the normal marine, since jim raynor automatically has stim. if the marine is to become the new spec ops, that means no marine spawn, or at least marine spawn would need to be moved up on the spawn list because jim raynor gives much more killscore. also, since he has auto stim, we might also begin to see the computer stimming. i believe the reason the computer doesn't stim right now is because the marine's dont have stim upgraded.

UU or moose should really change the kills to cash to inferno's way. And comp stim wouldn't be a problem as such.

$%#@! That's a great point. Jimmy is worth a lot more than a regular marine, huh.


Yeah, that would make it easier to suggest things like this lol!

Moose already pointed out why Inferno's way wouldn't work out, and you can't do perfect kills to cash without a spare computer anyways.

Well If the Special Ops becomes a pos that can barely hold his own in day 1 i don't think hes going to be the go to guy for siming anymore lol. As for the comment about +3 that was the complaint back arround the first two tournaments. They switched hp and dmg so many times it was rediculous until they finally settled on +2 err well 1.5 did and m7 is now idk about the rest of m versions.

And Honestly i don't know many characters that will get full health by end of game unless they are playing with a medic so idk why you even brought that up. Your figuring he can only hit 98 dmg by having it come really late when it will be there sooner than you think. once he actually gets stim is where is exp will sky rocket compared to before stim.

He can wear them down. Any non range he can fight at distance. The mech and summoner are the only ones i would be concerned with as the rest would either die to fast or don't have a powerful enough ability to KO the rine or they don't have the attack range.


utilzing your teamates isn't considered a counter. Counters are 1v1 scenarios thats why they are considered counters. The key when picking is to counter your opponents so you can favor your own team by seting up more 1v1 battles during the game. Obviously if you gang up you will have a much better chance to kill your opponents, but you can't always do this. There are times for ganking and times for 1v1s. The warrior's main dmg can be avoided if he doesn't stun by just making the mech transform.

Without using l4 or siege tanks thats about all the mechs spells. Seriously? L1 mech with 2 tanks, l2 vulture with vulture copy, l3 tank with tanks, l4 specialized combination of units depending on the mode in. To avoid your l4 dmg i can just transform and take off while you take the dmg and still die. You may be better in the begining but at the end you won't be nearly as good. as for the comment about your l3 1v1 battles not 1v1 matches. Your little hydra trick only works if you manage to kill both an offensive player and a defensive player.

I think your getting confused i'm not talking about l2 i said l3 in the begining and thats what i have been talking about. This is the second time you've mentioned l2 the first time i thought it was a fluke and ignored.

Any unit not paying attention is going to die for sure save maybe the assassain since its night and the light mage cant see him with l2. I thought we were talking about night? If not these players aren't using there mini maps a crucial element to not dieing. Btw just 1 more thing light mage l3 has an observer which is very good to use vs assassain. Thats a lil off topic though.

You mean this?



Inferno's method still works, because it uses kills OF CURRENT PLAYER and deaths OF THE NORMAL COMP. Moose's reason is flawed because it uses kills OF ONE TEAM instead of the individual player.
You don't need an extra comp for it either.

EDIT
Maybe I'm wrong...
If P1 kills 2 marines, he gets 200 KS. If P2 ALSO kills one zealot, he has 200 KS. Triggers check if P8 has had one death of zealot:Yes. P1 has also got 200 KS:Yes. So p1 gets the exp. Sigh.
I don't suppose you can detect if p1 killed a particular unit, like
P1 has killed exactly 1 marine?

EDIT
Yes there is! Ok so the triggers just need slight modification to use, say,
P2 kills exactly one zealot
Add 10 exp.

P2 kills exactly two zealots
Add 20 exp

P1 kills exactly one marine
Add 2 exp

P1 kills exactly 2 marines
Add 4 exp.

Flawless.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Sep 23 2009, 8:11 pm by zany_001.

i think the easiest way to get arround this is to use prime numbers for kill scores there are 25 primes under 100 (24). would this be suffiecient to track the killable units in temple siege? For main units i would think this would be enough and we could use higher primes for hero units to track them better since they cant be multi killed.


anyhow the idea being two or more players would need to kill exact multiple of the two seperate primes to reach the exact same score. ex 3 and 5 units one player would need to kill 3 *5* point units resulting in 15 and the other would need to kill 5 *3* point units resulting in 15. The chances of this are very slim and as the units value increases the chances grow even slimer.

To start you can assign broods a 3 point value and lings a 5 point value and work your way up. The chances someone would kill 5 broods and 3 lings at the exact same time is pretty unlikely but even so could always bump the number up one level and then it becomes even less likely.

Later on during the game where multiples are actually killed quite frequently the units would have higher prime values and thus would be harder to result in exact same kills. for example one would need to kill 11 rines and another 7 zealots to hit the same value.

This would make a system of cash to kills fairly easy to work with and higher primes could be used for hero kills. what do you guys think? regardless of wether or not this is ever actually implemented i would like to see if you guys think this would work.

http://www.staredit.net/wiki/Kills_To_Cash

Rewards with individual triggers is the best system.
I'm not too sure what you mean with yours.

edit- ah i see can't adjust kill score we are only adjusting the rewards nevermind.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Sep 23 2009, 9:30 pm by killer_sss.

Can you just post what you think what will work? I really don't get what you just posted, it's all over the place. The problem scenario still stands, what do you mean of the NORMAL comp? And his does use current player, also PERFECT kills to cash uses an extra comp, I still hate the terms for this system, flawless is what we're talking about. You can't detect what unit you killed effectively, you can only detect kill score. You can only reset kill score too.

what? How would you reset his actual kill count? Do you not use Staredit or something?

If you haven't upped your health whatsoever by the time Zealots roll around and you're not playing Summoner or Med, then you deserve to die from an auto attack. Anyone stupid enough to do this is going to die from cannons, you don't need a +4 marine with stim to do it. You're trying to implant the idea of a situation that's absurdly beneficial for the Spec Ops. If Spec Ops is on a team that sims for him and he's fighting a team that has never upped their health, oh boy, he's the most OP class in the game then huh? Aside from anyone else that can bring someone from 600>0 in a single pass? I think you're referring to everyone here. The Spec Ops no matter how high he gets his ups will always do less damage than a scaling ability will. Whether it's a Mut with L3 or a Warrior with L2, the Spec Ops is losing this because he has no abilities to kill someone. Unless you count mines against a LM. Again, that's funny, but, unlikely.

TS is a game based on quick reactions and micro. "Wearing someone down" doesn't cut it when you can't hold someone down long enough to pound them for 10 seconds. The Spec Ops doesn't have an HKo ability or a stun. However which way you put it he will always lose in the long run when it comes to straight HKoing. In which case, his auto attack damage is useless unless it's high enough to actually threaten someone who's worried about taking a few lurks from a Mut or a scratch from Mech's L4. Compared with this the Spec Ops isn't a threat.


This is a multiplayer game and Warrior is a tank with a long range stun. What do you think is going to happen? Medic doesn't need to be pwning anyone in a 1v1 to win a game.


Vultures L2 isn't going to kill an Archer unless he's on recovery. I've never seen an Assault kill anyone by using L3. Archer's L4 lasts longer than the Mech's. He can precast it while fighting you and still have it last longer than your L4. That also means he can run away in the middle of it and unless you're running straight through a large pack of Mutalisks you're not going to use L4 on him. It's also impossible to assume that you can escape your own L4 as Mech by transforming. Night only gives Archer more vision for having his own personal base and a pack of hydralisks.

Now if the game still has all six players alive by this point in the game that's impressive. It doesn't change the fact that he can make a strong pack of hydralisks. There's an infinite amount of possibilities with this, depending on who you're fighting and who's on your team. It doesn't matter how you place it, the Archer has an advantage in most every way against Mech. If the Archer is countered then that's a totally different game. But, that has nothing to do with Archer counter to Mech.