Well, Gates give Exp don't they? But then, it isn't much if I recall....gates giving Minerals would be an interesting idea, maybe 5 each though? I do agree though, in some games I've seen players just ignore the outposts and focus on killing enemy players, or bypass outposts and go right for the enemy temple.

Gates don't give exp except when you capture them. It is only an idea ATM for regular exp giving(i believe).

Oh, odd, I had heard they gave Exp over time.

too little and its not worth it to kill the gates too much and it becomes a problem for early attacks. The example i'm thinking of is a spawn rush. One team powers the spawn up and then takes down cannons so the spawn can dominate. Once the gates are killed the group of idiots that just rushed spawn and may not have been able to kill the temple before now get say at least 6 civs to compensate them which means they are now stronger than originally.

They can use this to either beat on the temple or further upgrade the spawn. 6x3= 18/4 = final tier of spawn assuming they upped it a few times already. I just can't see a team overcoming this. And if you reduce it then it may not be enough to kill the gates under normal circumstances.

The whole thing about the mech's l3 being completely useless is a certain amount of "not-knowing". The mech's l3 can easily be put in siege mode, and when you cast l3, the tank will come out already in seige mode... i've used this dozens of times to chase down opponents, since it can do at least 150 dmg in a shot, and with the vult kills easily. Also, it's usefu for its base killing abilities in its l3.

The amount of exp the other team would get from feed would probably be more than enough to counter the 6 civs worth. It would certainly speed up games though.

To Killer_sss

The Civ. is an Idea, not a suggestion to clarify. Spawn rush is already is a seal deal strategy in most cases. Thank you for the example, but the only reason why I didn't think about spawn rush that much is because general TS matches already consider spawn rushing "Taboo".Oh and you can always just cannon spam to counter...

Can you clarify the beginning please, it's to vague for me lol.

to both of the replies Yes the feed can be detrimental but early game you just wont be able to do it if it goes up fast enough. Zealots as base unit is hard enough by the second night but can be pushed back. Change that to goliaths by the second night and omfg. Sorry you won't overcome that. And if they use it directly for boosting there attacks they can focus on temple while u focus on spawn and you just wont be able to last.

Once you are based in any good team will assim the map at least providing them with enough compensation to kill the temple. The spawn rush right now is not a seal deal if you are playing smart opponents and as for taboo well taboo wont stop the masses from abusing the idea.

Regardless of whether its civs or exp it will amount to a great change in power. If it is exp obviously the more time goes on the leass helpful it will be which is why early attacks would be detrimental.

As for cannon spamming to counter you wont have enough cash to effectively stop the team from killing your gates first. Once the gates are killed you've already lost the battle you were trying to win. If they do choose to up the spawn totally the goliath spawn will make quick work of these cannon spams.

This is why i'm both for and against this idea. I see problems but i also see a new strategic game developing.

While that is a good use of the Tank it's not really using it as a form as it is using it as a spell. But what about putting it in Tank form and playing with it? I rarely see it. Players actually mostly favor the Bike form from what I see, because it's only marginally lower in terms of attack and though it has lower HP is much faster than the Goliath.

To Killer_sss

I understand that and I do agree that Goliaths would be extremely difficult to go against. Ty for pointing that out, I forgot about Goliaths.

Again, it's a seal deal in most cases because I'm generalizing that the majority of players don't have the capability of countering it. The reason why spawn rushing IS taboo is because the "masses" judge that it's "noobish" to go spawn. Only a minority of players I've met used spawn rushes, and a minority of that minority, knew how to use it effectively.

Early attacks, scratched that since we can't truly define early attacks. Early Game attacks (first day and mid night) will most likely end in failure because of....
Little to no ups
1st to 2nd tier spells only
and...
cannons remain as a threat at the early game still.
So I doubt that early game attacks are going to be detrimental unless you go spawn rush which again, is off my equation.
Mid game is what you have to worry about...

I was joking about cannon spam. I just added that in because I originally got into this thread because of that lol :]
It's very situational.....lol

*going slightly off topic*
People haven't really found a counter for spawn rush yet imo... but the games strategy is still evolving so in the near future, I hope some genius will find an efficient early game counter besides mirror spawn ups.

I totally feel what you're saying, I see so many new strategic side developing for TS and this is one of 'em. I apologize if I'm being slightly aggressive towards your point of view.

iirc you can only up spawn a certain number of times. i remember upping spawns in a game and we couldn't up spawns past hydra. the enemy was at their marine level and to my knowledge did not attempt to mirror. i was in another game where the enemy upped spawns to hydra during the third night. i've only been in 1 game where i could up spawns past hydra, and that was in a 1.5 and the spawns were already at their marine base. so i dunno, is there a limit to spawn ups?

unless of course you mean increasing spawn number, but increasing numbers of broodlings is useless because cannons 1 hit them and the feed will likely allow the other team to quickly 1 hit them as well. goliaths by the second night doesn't even seem possible. zealots is only 2 upgrades past zergling, but goliaths are i believe...5 levels?

broodling - zergling - marine - zealot - hydra - goon - goliath.

uppgrading spawn is at the very least incredibly telegraphed, since the player/players will be massing civs. a signal that the defending players should start saving also. countering a spawn rush usually revolves around simming, going life, and enough minerals (or simmage) to get 18 armor against marines, and most small units can made do with about 25 armor on hydras. the problem with spawn rushing is the wasted civs, so the defending team has a civ advantage which can very quickly become exaggerated since the upgraded spawns will shred broodlings and leave the rushing team with no more exp until, and assuming, the gates are destroyed.

i'm new here, i have a really cool replay saved that i'd like to upload, how do i do that?

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Aug 11 2009, 4:32 am by ladyalanah.

It's too bad you can't save TS replays, because I just had an epic one.

It was 3v3 on 1.5d. I was Phantom with Medic and and Mech against a Marine, a Mutant and Volt. The Medic captured top, but mid and bot were lost. The Mech and Marine players were noob and died early, leaving it me with the Medic to fight the Volt and Mutant. The Ling also lost a life, and I think myself or the Medic did too. But overall I felt pretty good, I thought it was a good match-up for us. Around third day, the Medic had her fourth spell and used it, and I had enough ups to one-shot Lings. Then, during the third night....

Purp upgraded spawn to Marines and Hydras.

What took place from there is nothing less than a prime example of exactly how brutally and easily a spawn upgrade can backfire. The spawn proceeded to rape our cannon defenses as they alternated the spawn across various points, and took top. But as I said, the Medic had level 4, and though it was difficult at first we held back the spawn, and we upgraded until we had enough armor to withstand them easily, and eventually I was able to one-shot the marines. When we got our Marines they had gotten to Hydras and Goliaths, but we had built Reaver and Goliath-spawning buildings. We weren't just holding back the spawn now, we were pushing them back. I got my l4 and some 300 mana and killed purp twice, and green also was on his last life and I trapped him on the hill near our base when I pinned him with my l2 and a group of halls.

Eventually our spawn pushed forward, we retook the three outposts, but sadly before we could start breaking into their temple, we killed purp. He had around 700-800 exp, we each had 1800 or so.

It was an epic match, if the replay worked I'd upload it here for you guys to watch.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Aug 11 2009, 5:02 am by DrakeClawfang.

basically there are drawbacks to upping the spawn there are so many counters. upgrading your own spawn, feeding off them, making reavers and a few others. Basically the thing i'm focusing on is not worried about the ability to push spawn back because it can be done.

I'm more worried about the effects of adding the exp to temples. I'm for trying it but there needs to be a limit somehow i'm just not sure what exactly. Regardless Idc who you are or what unit you are your not going to stop goliaths if they are up by the second night.

Even if you had players like the zealot and the goon both with L3 by then and both sucking/destroyin spawn with there spells the temple is still going to take massive dmg because they will be upping spawn number as welll and you wont be able to venture out too far or you will die.


I'm sorry i started this spawn discussion i was only trying to focus more on the effects of powering up the warp gate exp return. If worse comes to worse unholy can always push upping spawn to 5civs. Hopefully this will result in some good testing to see how much compensation is too much for killing warp gates if unholy desides to add in more compensation

I have another, likely stupid suggestion. What if the Mineral bonus for level up was flexible? Because as is now, it's a bit uneven, most players take the Mineral bonus at the start, and some heroes need several right at the start. But as the game goes on, upgrades become more expensive and it's just not worth it. The Mineral bonus option goes quickly from very important and very unimportant.

So what if the Minerals the level up bonus gave you changed? The most obvious factor I think is that it gives you more minerals as the spawn grows stronger, but what if say, the bonus got a bit larger every day-night cycle? Only problem is that then it's hard to keep track of how much it'd give you.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Aug 11 2009, 5:12 am by DrakeClawfang.

The purpose of minerals at the beginning is to get an edge. Normally, most heroes only get 1 or 2 at the beginning (at least how I play) to be able to fight decently. But some heroes, (such as marine, zealot...) are able to get a very big edge by going like 5 civilians all on mins, and a couple on hp in the very beginning of the game. Doing so, they may have an early advantage, but they are giving up 5 civilians that could have gone into more useful things, as which you said the mineral bonus in the beginning isn't as noticable later on. It's a choice where you have to decide...
Also, phantom/medic vs anything loses because of reavers/goliaths O.o.
Another thing, I think that mech without vulture is not the greatest idea; the vulture is kinda like his specialty. Goliath form gives ability to kill big units, vulture gives mobility and micro, tank gives cannon destruction. If you take out vulture, goliath form becomes very weak, as it is easy to own him, especially from his low speed. Mech IS op right now though; you can't argue against that. Mech needs some kind of decrease, maybe less wraith damage or vulture damage (but keep it so kills broods at 7 attack ups ), or maybe less hp (you don't need hp with vulture anyways, not like your gonna get hurt lol.) But please don't remove the vulture from mech. Also, current lvl 3 is not very useful, other than killing cannons. Double lvl 3 doesn't work well, as a single lvl 4 does more damage than double lvl 3. (Why would you want to be in tank mode normally O.o) Lvl 3 might wanna be changed.

A reduce in vult atk would be good. Combined with the vultures micro and speed, it shouldn't be as powerful as it is now. I don't think less hp would make much difference, although if it starts with base armour that could be lessened.

No, as I said we won, because they fed us and weren't smart enough to do that.

Marine/Archer beginning build is 3min/1hp in the order of 2 mins-1 hp-1 min, this works out the best Imo. It gives you enough grinding attack and with micro, you can hold your own vs zealot at mid and top.

Each of the mech's form has to serve a purpose. It's a waste to have all of those forms if you only use a third or two thirds of it.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Aug 11 2009, 3:00 pm by TeHDarKM.

Hey DrakeClawFang... That was a really good match you had right there. I'm not sure, but I think I was the medic in that game... I dunno though I play too many games to remember them all.

I was thinking about the changes to LM and ED

First of all, I was really intrigued by FlashBeer's "Light Transmission" Spell...
However, I decided it doesn't fit with the LM's Theme. Therefore, I will be inputting my original idea of "Light Essence", where the LM spawns a normal HT... Whenever the LM casts a spell, the HT will also cast it but with 1/2 the power.
Also, if LM casts L1 twice, they will switch places.

Lastly, I got a new idea for the ED.
It was kind of inspired by FlashBeer's idea of vortex... and ws-tank's great wizard's Pit Lord spell...
What happens is that the SandSlash will be Spell 1B. The new Spell 2 will be where all units OTHER than Spell units (e.g. reavers, hero's swords, scourges) are moved to an enclosed area with the Lurker. If ally spawns was in the area, it will also be moved to that place, and therefore can effectively trap other players...
You can also use it defensively to hide yourself for a while.

I also don't know if I should mess with the Vision. When an enemy gets taken into the Pit, should they lose vision of the Earth Demon?.. Obviously they still can cast their spells, which makes this spell useless against any heroes that can paralyze.

What'd u guys think??
The ground Fissure (Spawning Hydralisks) can also be swapped between L2 and L3 to accommodate this spell.

EDIT: I will reconsider Mech's dmg and stuff