One thing you guys are forgetting is the army.
It's a lot easier to stay alive to kill units when you have 50 more right behind you, helping you out.
In fact, the way I see it, your army is one of the most important parts of this game. With out controlling the units effectively, you can't truly succeed.
That is what separates this from, say, TS.

I think the problem with anyone who says that hero's can't take on troops just hasn't found the right combos yet. I purposely included combo spells that were meant for crowd control [Dagger ZDT, Bow DTT, Katana ZTT, All ZZZ] and more. Sometimes it's actually a bad idea to mass troops because Killing ~20 hooded figures gives u a magic up, then u can kill more and it's a possitive feedback loop.

Also, New-guy is absolutely right when he says to fight with your men. Fighting along side of your troops is the best way to succeed in this game. Also, another strategy that I haven't seen anyone mention yet is to use 2 seperate rally points (You and your team mate) to attack a position from both sides.

But yeah, you don't NEED an army to win either, All character's DDD combo > base defenses. Bow ZDT or Dagger TTT outranged cannons, so if you're persistant enough you can definitely take down some defenses. Even Katana's DTT is a great spell for base ownage if you have max MP to constantly keep your shield up while you take down some cannons. Also, don't forget that ultimate weapons such as Kali Blade increase spell effectiveness (Spells with T in them only), so Kali Blade + DTT + high MP = cannon tankage.

I don't know, no game that I've played has been the same, so there are obviously a lot of different ways you can go about things. The one where the katana was spamming "D" or "DD" to tank was nice, and I've never thought about sneaking past defenses into the base before, but it's a good idea. Also, sometimes when it's a contest of army strength, don't forget that the opponent can't spawn men from a location if there isn't a support beacon there [Meaning you or your men have destroyed it]

Thanks for your input everyone, keep the suggestions coming.

One thing I was thinking of that you could add, would be buildable spawns.
One thing that bugs me early game, is the low numbers of units that are walking around, willing to be killed for cash.
If you could buy a probe, who could then build Pylons (or some other building) which could then spawn units for your team!

Or, you could make it so there is 'capturable' spawns.
A spawn building that starts neutral, but has a king-of-the-hill style of play to capture it throughout the entire game.

The problem with a probe building spawn buildings is, where would you get the money?
The idea would be cool, but I see too many problems and would be too similar to TS.

Capturable spawns would be something I'd go for. Maybe even having a special spawn or something would be nice. Just a unit that's strong, but not to the point where it would just own heroes. That idea could add on a few new strategies to the game.

Btw Norm, Dagger's ZDT is not my most favorite spell out of the other spells for ling. The reason is that it can kill you sometimes and I find it annoying. Could you perhaps change it to where it doesn't spawn rapidly, but steadily. I got the idea of leaving a trail of mines when I first used ZDT for ling, but turns out I can't.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on May 27 2009, 3:45 am by Xero.

Have you tried using it while running at full speed? I haven't tested it out myself, but it should allow you to leave a trail if you use it while you're already moving at full speed. I wanted it to be like you're moving so fast that it hurts people you go by. Try using it like that and let me know if it works, I'll have to adjust the triggers a little bit if it doesn't work like that. =/

Another note: I will NOT incorporate probes and building spawns, however, A capture-able outpost would probably add to the gameplay as said before and will be considered in future versions.

The ZDT for ling didn't work as you hoped Norm. Once you cast, your ling gets stopped because of the mines being created and your ling gets stuck.

=( I'll mess with it a little for 1.05.

Norm if your not already making a new map by now some changes to this would be nice. Please for love of god include a tutorial that centers pings and tells people how to play. I can only play this with friend because the general bnet group won't pay attention long enough for me to get everything across.

Expect it in 1.05

Just an idea I have for Archon. Since he sorta lacks the speed that the others have, could you try to add some sort of magnet spell? (temple siege lol) It would make up for his lack of speed when chasing down other players.

so when should i expect 1.05? your other versions seemed to pop right on. I take it this means this map is on the back burner for a while and your on to something new?

How do you get ranged troops?

You can get ranged troops by training your men to a minimum of at least tier 2, and getting reinforcements twice. (maybe 3 times, I forget)

And yeah, killer 1.05 is going to slowly come around, right now I am very busy with a new website. This might be the last map I create.

SERIOUS TIME BUMP!!!

What's this all about?

Well- Shit. Sorry- Some people have seen this coming, but obviously not everyone. It's okay, the ownage was intense, but not yet intense enough. V1.05 is finally here to change all of that!

Okay okay, so you're all asking me what's so great about V1.05, so let me tell you:

Changelist v1.04 --> v1.05

-100 Million
B __
A |_|
R |_| .... -50 Million
G |_| ...... __
R |_| ...... |_|
A |_| ...... |_|
P |_| ......|_|
H |_| ......|_|
_____________
V1.05 vs V1.04

Awesomeness Rating

•Weeded out a glitch that resulted in a surplus of 23,000 war earnings for players 2-4, and a surplus of 4,000 for player 1.
•Modified Razor Wind Spell to allow better movement for dagger when used.
•Modified Kali's Curse Spell to no longer spam screen with unplaceable message because of overdone effects.
•Modified Damage of the following spells: Razor Wind, Flame Aura, Greater Flame Aura, Burn Ray, Burn Ray2, Crying Heavens
•Reduced HP slightly of Rabid Wolf, Hooded Figure, and Avenger.
•NEW FEATURE!!! You can now command troops to your General's location. This does not work while you are in your own base. (Designed this way for balancing and game speed reasons)
•Altered Terrain layout ever so slightly to allow for more effective masses in certain directions.

Enjoy it... I know I will be.

Attachments:

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Jun 10 2009, 12:41 am by Norm.

I want to know if you're every going to put in capturable spawns?

I put some thought into it, and couldn't think of anything with my limited mapping time, so I put it off. I wouldn't count it out entirely, but as of now, 1.05 is pretty close to how the final version will probably end up being.

yo, you really should listen to unholy's suggestions. Over done spell effects might bring noobs in a little, but big effects that dont have much to do with the spell get really boring after a while. You should have good spells, not good spell effects. Unholy is prolly the master at this... listen to him.

hey, the ZDT for ling still doesn't work. I'm still stuck in the center once I use it.
By the way, something needs to be fixed for a bit. On the Red team, spawns will get stuck on the right path going to the cliffs. They usually get stuck on the ramp so you might need to change the terrain there a bit.

Just a slight complaint about the archon. When you use Kali's curse(ZDT), it lowers your hp too. Is this just for balancing or what? I find it hard to follow up with an attack when the opponent has high atk, or has casted another spell at the same time as mine. The spell ended up being as a hit-and-run type for me because once the enemy knows my hp goes down too, they'll stick around and attack.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jun 23 2009, 2:52 am by Xero.

Some things I need to point out and overview of the game.

Alright, for the spell ZD(shockwave), it doesn't stun all the enemy generals. It only stuns other players with the same unit as you. For example, if I'm archon and I use shockwave, I'll only be able to stun archons. I'm not sure if that was intended, but I find it frustrating sometimes.

Now, Dagger's Razor wind works....sorta. If you run in any upward direction, you won't have any problems with mines getting in your way. However, if you were to run in a southern direction, then you'll pretty much get stuck and be surrounded by mines. Norm, you did fix it in a way, but not enough really.

Katana's teleport doesn't work as described. The afterimage usually never attacks.

OVERVIEW/OPINION

Overall: Ok, I find this map to be extremely fun. Build orders in this game are really important when you're up against a team who knows what they're doing. The game can get micro-intensive when you're dodging spells and spawns and retaliating back. The learning curve varies with every person. Fast learners are bound to pick this up quick (obvious huh?) and enjoy a nice game. It takes a bit to fully understand how everything works only if you actually try. There are many ways to win the game, as build orders are often changed alot. Every decision you make when commanding troops could backfire. If you mass, your opponents could feed off of that and gain a huge profit. I actually find this more fun than TS (sorry urine ), but the lack of experience players is depressing. Well, players that can stand their ground against me. (Found only 2)

Generals:

Dagger(ling)- After playing this guy tons of times, I found him to be more of a PvP type of guy. His fast attack along with an arsenal of deadly spells makes the Dagger one of the most dangerous units in the game. Dagger probably has the most variety in his spell list. He is able to suck you in, slow you down, drain you mana, stun you, possibly cover the whole map with mines, take out your whole entire army, and so much more. I find him kinda rigged. jk

I really think the ling's a scary guy. In the hands of a pro, he could easily kill everyone with his speed and deadly spells. The ling is pretty famous for sneak attacks too. If you're too close to the ling, let's just say you're royally f*cked as he could pull out a tornado+mana drain combo on you.

Bow&Arrows(rine)- This guy is pretty all around and is usually on par with ling in power. The Bow is rakes in money alot faster than Dagger. His crowd control is amazing as fbats just simply rape if you use stim once they're out. His base destroying abilities are unmatched as tanks just simply make short work of cannons. His spell variety isn't as great as Dagger's, but it's enough to make him a fearsome opponent. You can snipe with tanks or use the tanks as a lure for another combo. (3 Reactions upon seeing tanks: Your opponent will 1. Run away 2. Run towards the tank, or 3. Say "Oh shit...") There's many uses for his spells, but I don't want to list them.

This is probably my best guy, so that should explain alot haha. Except, I find flame enchantment really useless...

Katana(archon)- To put it frankly, overall, this guy can't match up against the other two generals. The archon however could last on the battlefield the longest, as his shield regeneration spell helps alot. He can teleport back to base so that helps him slightly when facing other generals. His build order is pretty limited from what I see. Getting a weapon up is an absolute must because of your low DPS and base damage. His spell set isn't too amazing. Sure his TTD and ZDT are good, but the lack of variety really makes him less versatile than the others. The Katana is good in a way, but only against noobs.

I'm trying my ABSOLUTE best to try and find a way for katana to match up against the others, but it's just not working. As I said, to make up for his lack of speed he needs some vortex spells. He does have the highest damage, but the lowest DPS which seriously puts him at a disadvantage. His firepower in spells is really low compared to other spell sets. Norm, I really need you to do some serious changes to him, as he is the most underpowered/unpopular unit out there. Though me and my friend are trying to master him.

Conclusion:

The terrain isn't so bad. It doesn't get in the way of gameplay which is fine by me. You pretty much do most of the fighting in the middle section of the map. I'm not really bothered by this because that's usually where all the fun is...and money. The spell combo system is awesome, and spell sets are easy to memorize. It's also fun to try and find new comboes during the game. Build orders in this game is important, as said before. Microing, Predicting, and Feinting are the keys to surviving other players. Again, I find this game very enjoyable and so do others. Many online find this map to be fun, awesome, and frustrating at times. Anyways, there's good and bad feedback. They range from loving your map to despising it. It just depends on if they understand the gameplay or not.

Please continue balancing this as there are things that need attention. Adding new things wouldn't hurt too.

This is also the first time I wrote something like this, but it's not a review even though it could look like one...

Wow, I didn't think anyone cared about this map anymore. Thanks for your support man, really I appreciate it.

Tell you what, I can't let a fan down. I had previously dropped this project, but I have decided to pump out one more version for the sake of those who care.

In the next version expect the following:

•Investigation into the Shockwave spell (I've noticed it acting funny before also, but was unable to find out what's up with it.)
•Assessment of Katana, he does have his strengths, but you are probably right about not being able to compete on a pro level against the other two. Possible changes will include 1.A possible increase in weapon damage and 2.Possible changing of a spell or two to make him more versatile.
•More modification of Razor Wind. I'm now determined to get it to work the way I intended!
•I'll give the after image on teleport a little more time to attack =)


I'm so glad that you recognize my emphasis on "Tactics" as in every decision you make in this game can have a major effect on you, from whether or not you buy a new weapon or where your put your troops, or if you grab that mystery box that had let's say reinforcements in it would change the game a lot. If I succeeded on anything, it was that - but I failed to make the game simple enough for a lot of people to pick up on =(. Also, the balance is a little off, Well- I'll of course try to adjust it some more and see where we get, but It's tough.

YES! The dagger is designed to be the assassin type general of the game. Taking people out in PvP if they aren't keeping watch. Dagger's weakness is against a large mass of troops. One thing I noticed that you said was about covering the whole map with mines - wow, this is possible, yes, but Would you really take the time to do that? seeing as how you wouldn't even be able to go to base and heal since the mines are removed if you move a certain distance away from all of them. Oh well, haha, I'm working on fixing the ZDT spell for you, I have a pretty good Idea on how to work it.


Awesome, this guy as you seem to utilize to the fullest was definitely designed to be "Ownage from a Distance" as his spells focus on keeping him out of harm ways, yet still destroying stuff. Flame enchantment is suppose to be a spell that protects you from people chasing you when you're trying to escape by shooting them. I don't use bow too often when I play, so how would you recommend me making that spell more useful? Does it need more damage? an additional effect? Think about it for me. I might add this to my list of things to update for the next version.

This guy was designed as the tank general - the one who doesn't give a shit if he's getting shot because he takes a fraction of the damage. LoL, no but I purposely chose the ranged units Archer and Elite Archer to give Katana an advantage during tier 2-3 of the game due to his unit size. I tried to make up for this guy's lack of speed by making it so that he wouldn't have to heal as often, and also giving him teleport and a shield restoring spell. I think that balance is good, but the spell set is lacking? Perhaps- From what I see, we have: TT- bolt2 is a strong attack for a relatively cheap cost. ZT- Teleport is useful of course. ZZT Crying Heavens the spell with pretty short range, but it does more damage than any other spell in the game. DTT- Rechage = full shields = really useful DDT - Static Charge is a stun move that is like shockwave, except it's a hell of a lot more effective. Unfortunately, I can definitely see how the rest could be lacking. I will consider re-doing a spell or two if I can think of an improvement. Do you have any ideas? Oh, and ZDT is a good spell too, as you've already said.

Again, thanks for all of your support. I'll try to put out another version and we'll see if it's good =). Keep playing, It seems that you understand the working of the game almost as well as I do, and I'm impressed by that. Thanks again for your feedback, I'll be looking forward to more.