Currently there is a new map being played named Desert Strike.

Two Teams of 3 players spam building that activates certain spawn of computer units. As everyone builds more buildings, computer forces that represent each team battles it out in a tug-o-war. This Concept has been orignally from warcraft 3 (i think) and has moved into SC years ago in different variations in the name of: Castle Fight, Preschool wars, sand Castle and now Desert Strike. After much dissussions with regulars players, everyone is in need of a Desert Strike that fits their preferences of playing.

New Castle Map Project
I'd like everyone to help participate in creating a new variation of this wonderful custom map playing concept. Share your Ideas here.

My ideas
Themes
I am convinced that themes help create a better imagination to the map thats being made. Here are some of the themes I've thought of putting in this Castle map.
1. Age of Empire: age of Kings
Age of Empire is a rts Computer game. Each unit will represent a unit in that game. For example, ghosts will be renamed Archers, melee like lings will be named axeman and etc.
2. Command and Conquer: Red alert. Another rts popular game. Again, ill simply change the names of units like have Archons be Tesla tanks.
3. Heavens last theme. Heavens Last is a UMS map. It has a celetial theme for which units have names like Michael, Jesus (lol), Satan, etc.
4. Lord of the Rings
5. Star Wars
Everything except Age of empire has been used a lot for UMS maps.

Terrain
My prefences is having beautiful detailed terrain without cluttering it with random irregular doodads/sprites. The Reccent Castle map, Desert Strike, is simple and effect. just a rectangle battlefield have both sides clash in a liner horizonal fashion. I"d like to be more elaborate on this, but still maintain the simplicity (if thats possible).

1. Diagonal. Intead of having the comp run in a horizonally, i suggest making it diagonally. This is really effective because then the 6 bases can have extra room to build.
2. Zigzag. Like a U, Z or N shape. In the Preschool war map, comp forces moved in a one way maze which i don't want. Sand Castle moved in a colum/row fashion which is too systematic in my opinion. A zag can really bring out dynamics of this map.
3. Swirl. One Base is smack in the middle and one is in the outside. Both are connected in a swirl.
Note that all of these ideas are symmetical so that it each side is even although it doesn't necssarily have to.


Base fortresses and general info
Lets say we have a terrain picked out. Now its time to decide how to change the current bases of each force. If were going to have a much bigger battlefield then it might be possible to add more than one base. Instead of having the bases be high health, make them low so easier to destroy (so that the units won't clutter trying to kill a base). Another thing was thinking of adding some invincible base defence structures like a cannon/bunker/spore/ with low health pylon stacked. Put them all around the field. The enemy will have to take out the pylon to complely destroy the defence structure.


Power|Money|Tech systems
Last paragraph i wrote was too long just talk about few things so ima just write down the ideas and let everyone discuss about them.

1. Hero system: In a smal square area, bunch of civs and beacons. Each beacon represent a spawning of a hero unit at the cost of minerals.
2. Mineral|Gas: Have players be able to exchange minerals for gases. Gases can be used in the cost of anything thats high end such as specials.
3: World War teching system: off to the side, an area which player controls a Nexus. and couple beacons. Players are encourage to build a probe from that nexus to yield civs. Civs are used on beacons. Beacons yield hero units.
4. LOTR system: Have some simple building like an academy or shield battery be very very expensive and long to build. That would yield in 2x amount of units that spawn for that player.
5. magic and skills: At the cost of minerals/gas, players can use special civs to execute different magic spells. Some spells ideas:
a. Bombard:flying orb will be launch toward 3 random places and will kill anything underneath it
b. Armageddon: Everyone will have access to eliminating all forces in battlefield thats somewhat expensive.
c. Yuri Control: Everyone will have access to mcing all forces in battlefield thats too expensive and not really worth to get.
d. Martydoms: Executing this will
e. Heal structure: instead of having it be a stupid Terran Special, let everyone use it very expensive. It will instantly heal defensive or base structure by 50 percent.
f. Decoyers: Players Mind Controls 1/2 of enemy forces and turns them into Hallucinations
g. Carpet bomb: kills all ground unit
h. Flak attack: Kills all air units
i. Polar Freeze: Spawns won't come for 2 turns. (combo that with armageddon would be cheap tho).

Comments/more Ideas? post here

Ideas: I've always wanted too see one where you could have minimal control over the computer forces. Like giving each player a set of beacons that order units from one beacon to a second one. (Arriving at the second one would order them towards the enemy base again.) Give them like 10 beacons to plan out massing strategies of attack. Of course the terrain battlefield for this would need several pathways with connections in between.

Theme: Original is always better than unoriginal. Name one movie where the sequel was better than the original, and I'll name you twenty originals that were better then their spin-offs. If your really dead set on reusing a theme though, just stick with Starcraft. The reason people play Starcraft is to play Starcraft, not to play Command and conquer.

For terrain: Don't make it too complex, or you will get unit confusion and clumping. Also, keep battlefield relatively low on units, as lag tends to be a downer. Two main bases would be best, but having smaller outposts which could be used as holdings would be ok.

Tech systems: I enjoy games that have a long tech system, such as Sand Castles. If your going to use any sort of specialty in the game, make it continue to change throughout the duration. I like the idea of having a hero, but at the same time it would detract from the building part of the map. Perhaps if you made the builder have an attack. I might be self involved here, but I'd like to see the method I used in Rapid Factor put in a map. (It was a wraith Centered on an SCV, and when the SCV repaired the wraith, (Simply by clicking) it shot gridded missiles.)

How about making something completely innovative

"Smarter" computers, place mines and build structures(bunkers, cannons).
Upgrades and technologies cost, but are given to everyone on the team if one person researches it.
Random hazards(players 9-11) placed on field randomly?
Abilities for players, scarab/spidermines shooting across map?
Some computer "type" vote(Defensive/Aggressive/Strategic) and (Terran/Protoss/Zerg).

sounds like a good idea but i agree with UnU

My favorite castle-type map is Legacy's Sand Castle Wars L2. Every other one (even his own L3) was garbage.

The idea of outposts would be cool, as well as more abilitys to be used. I also like the idea of multipul pathways so you can actually use some unit strategy as opposed to mass A agaisnt mass B. It would be cool if hero units were controlled by the players, and were considered generals or something that could sneak into enemy base and tank out unit producers. A larger battlefield would be nice, allowing players to strategically set up defenses in some spots. Comboing races would also be cool, yielding more options. The guy who mass's marines and the guy who mixes reavers with golaiths. More strategys come up with race combinations. Abilitys like x2 Spawn and elimination or control are also good.

Update: I have started making a castle-like map using default units plus new modded units.
I neeed assistance in balancing the stats of units. If anyone wants to help out please reply

This like castle-fight/Battlecraft. Everyone builds buildings (not units) that spawns an amry for computer players to battle each other. Think of it like a comp tug o war and the strength of one tug is dependant on the type and quantity of buildings. There are Two Teams consisting of: 1 computer (fighters) and 3 players (builders).

My main challenge is using new units to be balanced for the map. Each race a player picks will have at least 2 new units they can produce. Those units are modded hero units. Problem arises when I put new units, they overlap roles and also make other unit decrease in value. I'm confident that with enough help, It can be balanced.

Things to consider: You have to remember that computer players will be responsible for the units and will attack recklessly. This map takes micro-ing out the window so u'd have to take in consideration these limitations of units and weakness. In essence, its all about who has the better brute force.

Progression: A good example about some progression i'd like to avoid is from the maps Sand Castle and Desert strike. My objective is to not have ppl build tons of rax so that they can get an ultimate hero unit. For desert strike, games usually end up in a fight between BCS vs Devo/guards. The purpose of the new units is to break that inevitable fight and provide new challenges so that ppl will have incenticve to NOT mass BCS or guards. Purpose of my map is to also provide new build strategy to dynamically change the outcome of the battlefield.

Nothing is fair: theres a good random/luck factor when is comes to these type of maps. This cannot be fixed however, it can be minimized. Balancing new units into the equation while weighing out what the building price should be will decrease the luck factor. I've also working on additional triggers that makes the computer seem more "smarter". For example, Zerg players are able to build lurkers. Lurkers need special control to help them perform their tasks well.

You can reply or contact me via msg here or see me in op sen. I am willing to hear new ideas as well as debate about the changes being made.

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Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on May 20 2009, 6:22 pm by Queen-Gambit.

I'm not the biggest UMS fan, nor do I have much experience playing many, but this idea really catches my attention. I think if one would combine this with an existing mod, you would really have something special. I see so many UMS maps that try to capture a theme outside the Starcraft universe, but with the same old starcraft graphics. A fantasy theme with ghosts, seige_tanks, and zerglings renamed as dragons, goblins, and archers seems pretty far fetched to me. If you don't mod the units stick with SCI-FI starcraft universe I say.

Now, as for a fantasy theme with dragons, archers, and other dungeons and dragons themed units, I just happen to know of one such mod that is looking to entice some talented mappers to build a few maps. This 3rd person computer fighting arena idea is epic and would make such a fun map.

I would be so willing to help work on a taylor made version of this for the mod I mention.

some of us actually enjoy playing these games with the general public not just a few misc people barely interested in our map. If you wana mod thats fine but leave people alone who don't wish to mod. There is no reason not to make a game that can run over bnet just because it uses starcraft graphics. Oh well that is what blizard limited us to.

Sorry to get your panties all tied up in a bunch. I never was suggesting that you drop everything and start modding. I merely was suggesting that the concept was very intriguing and that a modder such as myself am very interested in the potential of building a map based on this concept taylor made to a specific mod. The topics creator himself stated that he has some "default and modded units" whatever that means.

On subject of maps concept>

I think Ratents suggestions that the map be void of intricate terrain and limited units is a valid point especially when dealing with the crappy pathfinding of the cpu.

Heinermann's idea that the cpu be allowed to build buildings and or defenses would add a nice touch. Access to things like spider mines, turrets, and bunkers really benefit the computer.

I downloaded the map and took a quick peek for fun. I haven't played any of these maps so wasn't sure how to engage the cpu units that were spawned with the buildings I created.

Also I was under the impression that a computer player would be taking over my units? Meaning a different color. The units seemed to remain red, but as I said, I don't have experience with this type of map so I have no clue and am not the best to offer feedback.

Here's a twist on this concept in which the roles are somewhat reversed which might be fun. Basically players are to defend against an onslaught of computer opponents or maybe even assist in defending an allied computer. Points are awarded per kills or the number of computer units you manage to protect etc. Those points can then be exchanged for a very small army that will fight in a small gladiator arena vs other players. Prob done a million times already with as equally many variations! I like the idea that fighting is done between computers tho.

I'll have to do a search for some of those maps that were mentioned as well.

Alright, Great map idea and I have a mod that would love to have something like this included with it if anyone is inclined. Regardless, I look forward to seeing your map in the production thread in the future.

I think there shouldn't be a unit that comes and takes out production, or else they'll need to be some kind of counter.

Try to think of counters in normal SC (firebats>zerglings, goliaths>wraiths) Base counters from there and see where you go. Don't forget to modify cost, or it might be too easy to counter a unit type.

As for paths, don't clutter it or the comp will get stuck. I'm all for lower base HP because it takes forever to get there in the first place.

Whatever theme you pick, I think would be fine.

Have you considered adding stacking?

Have you played ultima version? What can you say about "smart lurkers" there? Do you like lurker AI when one time per 5-10 seconds special location is centered on random enemy unit, and all lurkers are ordered to attack to this location?

I tried this on my castle fight map and disappointed. So I restored original "attack to enemy castle after spawn" in castle fight.

By the way - Nude Raider uses "original" method in his version too.

So I think it is not easy to make smart lurkers - they will smart in one situations and stupid in another.

I've Created a New Smart Lurker AI in my Night Strike Map.
You can check it out here:


Theo mentioned about having the lurkers move every 5-10 secs. the problem with that in Desert Strike is lurkers will unborrow even when it is unsafe to do so.

So basically what I done is put lots of small zones that cover the entire battlefield. When a lurker goes into a zone. It will either move to the next zone or burrow. I've finally figured out how to make lurkers burrow. Use simply give them a command like move and when they goto their destination they will burrow. The problem I had earlier was that I would have lurkers continually goto one spot therefore they wouldn't burrow or they would glitch out by burrowing and unborrowing (its kinda funny to watch it lol).

Another thing i've added is the movements of Detectors. Whenever there is a cloaked ghost, arb, lurker or dt, all enemy detectors around will "linger" around it letting the cloak units be vulnerable. People have asked to continue developing the detectors but I do, all cloak units will be utterly useless. Might as well give everyone comsat with 1 energy.

When I needed help, lil-inferno was the only one to helped me understand the simple use of Switch clear on Conditions and Set swtich on actions. Everyone else just called me a noob and didn't take me seriously.
Obviously I don't have map making skills. Op sen shouldn't be the place to make fun of ppl whenever someone comes n asks for help (even if its really basic).

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Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jun 7 2009, 10:12 pm by Queen-Gambit.

Sorry you had such a bad expierence. The basic help forum is the best place to go for newcomer information. There are some people on Sen that really don't belong here and you will pretty much just have to get use to those ignorant and arrogant types.

There are those that will always help with whatever they can. Just look for those that seem to give the most help and ask them if you need further help and i'm sure they will help with whatever they can.

keep up the good work and just ignore the jerks even though all of us here shouldn't have to put up with them.

queen i take it your still working on this? I would love to help you test it and give you some feedback. I have tested it quite a bit on my own and have both comments and questions.

goons are not as effiecient as before and take up so much more building space. I really don't have a problem with this but it should be balanced with all races. The toss completely fill up their room sometimes while the zerg always have room to spare.

Could we use some more units such as the pylon? This could be used for zealots and the gateway or cybernetics core for something else.

The Ai on the lurks is much improved but they still have some problems. They will chase opponents arround instead of waiting for the opponents to come to them or attacking the nearby building.

Other Ai problems are the detector units fly past and straight into cannos before the next wave spawns. Can we do a wait by the silo until its killed or something that makes it run when it hits cannon fire?

The tanks act extremly wierd. I've seen them siege at begin and do nothing all game. I've seen them roam arround the map and attack absolutely nothing because they don't get near any other units. I've seen them siege off to the side at the middle which makes it near impossible for opponents to change the tides of war. I've also seen them group at same spot and not siege doing absolutely nothing all game

the hero templars attack so much that they rarely storm and are virtually useless imo.

The zerg seem to have the most powerful heros. The rest seem to be over priced. The pheonix scout for the toss is neat but when i saw its stats i was disapointed. The toss have very weak air and crush the ground and the pheonix is from the same mold. I would rather see air to air scouts than air to ground.

The silo is almost a necessity to win. If you lose yours before your opponents your almost guarenteed a loss. Your desert strike version was much easier to overcome. Along with this is the exploding torsque. 9/10 times he kills more of your men than your opponents due to how long the detination takes. I think he should be given hp and when he is killed make an explosion that kills all forces nearby.

Why do some units have such high total hp but are set to such low hp?

Nice triggers for lurker AI:)

Thanks Theo =D. Also if u want to find me killer_sss, im always at op sen. Any help is appreciated

You said that:

1) you want to create themes like "archers indtead of marines" and so on
2) you want to create another style with heroes to avoid wars "bcs vs devo" and "mass marines vs mass zerglings"

Now I creating new map, and one interesting thing of this map is units with special weapons (you will see how it works and I will explain triggers after I finish this map and upload it to SEN).


Now check this units:


A) Ghosts with grenades.

Imagine the ghost, that use invincible infested terrans as grenades. Infested terrans has native ability to explode. For example we set 100 or 250 damage to it. And if during 2 seconds infested terran didnt found enemies - he dies (triggers). Original damage of ghost is 0.

B) Marines with bombs.

Same as A), but ultralisks instead of infedtes terrans. And as ultralisks didnt have native ability for explode, you can center location 3x3 on ultralisk after 2 seconds and kill all units (even ultralisk) at this location. Original damage of marines and ultralisks is 0.

C) Zealots with spider mines.

Same as a, but spider mines instead of inf terrans. Spider mines need to be created only if zealot are not more than 3 cells to the enemy, otherwise mines will not move. If during 2 seconds mines left - they explode (triggers). Original damage of zealots is 0.


D) Same as a, but mutalisk, that can throw scourges. Original damage of muralisk is 0. Devourers can be 5x expensive and attack with 5 scourges at a time.


E) Heroes: infested kerrigan, tassadar templar (can attack)


F) Ultralisk hero: when he dies - 2 original ultralisks created on place where he dead. When original ultralisk die die - 6 zerglings (hero) created on place where he dead. When zergling (hero) die - 3 original zerglings created on place where he dead. When original zerglings die - infested terrans created (same thing I saw in castle fight on WC3). For resolve conflict between infested terran after zergling death and infested terran grenade - you can set incincibility for grenades when they created, and set hp to 1% for "infested terran after zergling death" and clear incincibility. For resolve conflict between B) and F) you can use carrier hero or another unit in B)

By the way - there are 4 or 5 different battlecruisers in game (I will check at home in scm draft). You can use this F) trick for 2 wraithes and 5 cruisers - I think it will look nice:)


G) original units, but changed properties (or completely changed properties): Dragoons with 1000 hp 200 damage and cybercore cost 1000, ultralisks with 5000 hp but only 5 damage, zerglings with 5 hp and 500 damage and so on. That mean not increasing properties like 3x dragoon, but making "another" unit:)




So what about to create desert strike with heroes only, and avoid to use regular melee units? And if u use unit with native weapon - change properties for him.

If u like this idea - I will explain how to create this weapons and show u example later.

GL

Post has been edited 10 time(s), last time on Jul 30 2009, 2:28 pm by theleo_ua.

Yes I love it