Yoshi, when you can come up with a reason why it will be bad, I will take you seriously.

Edit: Dropping vultures right before dropship death using rine causes the vulture to drop at full health. Keeping rine at base also makes it stay at the health bracket the current marine is in.

I don't want to point fingers, because I'll do this as well near-frequently, but i find it hard to take a post seriously if it overuses the word noob.

In regard to temple siege though, with the spawn leaders, i have a quick question. Will the current spawn stats be changed in any way to accommodate this? I wonder, because, just with a quick thought, it seems like upping spawn would be a very viable option for a quick victory, especially for splash characters such as assault or volt as they gain xp very fast. Also, if the spawn is already at max, which is unlikely in a normal game anyway, will the leader just become the top unit?

This is what I suggest:

The DM does in fact have very weak exp generation. I suggested to give it static energy to continually cast psi storm so it could get some decent exp, drop the DA since it just maelstroms the DM itself anyway, and replace it with a queen that could ensnare instead of the DM. Setting the cost of PS to 40 and ensnare to 45 will prevent the DM from casting it altogether and balance it's snaring abilities with exp generation.

It has 4 snaring abilities so far if you count the 4L spell. This is aside from the improvements made to other classes, especially that of the Volt, Psion and Mech, who are each of them unable to be snared by the first spell anyway. I mean how many of you guys even play this class? I, like the poster above, don't claim to be the best player, but I win most of my games. This is because I don't pick the DM in 1.5. It's like the feral druid of Wotlk(PvP). Who plays this class?

Make one reason, one, even something remotely understandable, "WHY" this is a bad idea. Why the DM needs a DA that maels it's own caster, why the DM doesn't need some decent exp generation, and why the DM needs 4 snaring abilities that are only useful as support.

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Mar 31 2009, 2:31 am by Mini Moose 2707. Reason: Topic clean-up

Just a quick little thing, if DM had a static energy for infinite storm, two issues come to mind. The first, which is easily avoided, is storm spamming to try to kill someone. The second, psion storm would likely make DM level too fast, which granted, could be solved with rebalancing.

Infinite Psionic Storm is not a good idea. The massive XP on enemies as well as splash on allies will far outlevel any class. After stacking all of your spawns on one path to maximize splash XP, you not only far outlevel everyone else but deny the other team experience completely.

Dark Mage already gets 1-hit kills on Broodlings with just 3 upgrades. With the occasional Psionic Storm, it's a fine competitive leveller. If she leveled any faster, she would be too strong too fast.

Maelstrom affects the Dark Mage. Ideally, you are able to aim and avoid that. If you end up stroming both you and your target... then you have easy hits with your other spells.

I'll admit, the Dark Mage functions well more as a support class than anything else until L4... but she sets up some of the most fearsome team plays available in TS.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Mar 31 2009, 2:30 am by Mini Moose 2707.

That's a good point. The DM still has one of the slowest attacks and movement speeds of all of the classes. Including the fact it being melee and not having one mess cleaning spell among it's arsenal still makes it subpar compared with other classes.

Compare it with even the Psion. Psion has a penalty to small units, but, it attacks faster, moves faster, and is a ranged unit. When you compare their spells, and health/armor, there's no question that even the Psion out classes the DM. We're talking about a class that has maybe three times the survival rate of the DM and equally effective support abilities.

How is this balanced? Mind you, I think your opinion on the Psi Storm is a good one. Killing your own units would be quite unfair.

Idea:
Make LM's reavers +10 again, but make it Lv3. Have his Lv2 be full energy.

Or maybe you could make DM's Lv2 a Lv3(It's pretty fuckin good, less units can manual constant allie), and make it's Lv2 150 energy.

Agreed. Restore the Shield as well?


Problem is, once the DM has been mana burned, that's it. There's not much left it can do to survive. Perhaps making the L2 cost no Mana and having a 3 minute cooldown would make it better? The same could be said of the Psion's invincibility though. I think that your right, it needs to be changed. It's just hard to balance it correctly.

Once the DM hits over-the-top mana it can cast it's spells in a series which is extremely effective. But it's still only useful against other players. In addition, the spells weren't created with mana burning in mind. There are too many classes that really destroy this one just based on a very small group of spells. Disabling, stunning, swarming, mana burning and swarm destruction tear this class apart. We're talking 80%-90% of the classes having even just one of these and it's effect is very noticeable.

Okay, you guys are using the DM wrong if you think it's a weak class. The only thing that should be ripping you apart is a Mech, because it can manual through allied and is fast as hell, and can't be maelstromed.

The one thing that weak DM's don't do often is use ensnare. It's an offensive AND defensive spell. You can't hit yourself with it, so you should never miss. If you ensnare an opponent, you have a free run back to base against anything but Mech and Mutant, I believe. If you ensnare a low HP opponent, you're setting up a kill for your team. Couple that with maelstrom and L2? It's an insanely good support class. If you're trying to solo people, obviously you're going to have difficulties until L4.

Aiming maelstrom to only hit the enemy and not yourself can't really be taught, either you can aim well or you can't. I personally hit probably 90% of my maelstroms and only catch myself too in maybe a quarter or less of those. The DM is by far the best stunner, it has a long range L1 stun that can get people 3 times if you save. It's a micro intensive class, but if I'm picking my best team of 3 characters the DM is in it. (Plus Mech and Marine or Zealot)

I really like CAFG's Reaver idea. I think that L2 might be pretty ugly though, a short teleport would be much more useful for a Light Mage and make him multi-faceted. Plus, stormgaying is bad enough as it is. If you make a L2 give it the mana to cast 2.5 storms, he won't even need reavers to deny spawn EXP.

I'm no expert with the Psion, I'm hard pressed to even list its spells, but as far as I recall it does not have anywhere even CLOSE to the stunning/slowing powers that a good DM uses. The only thing I'd look at as far as revamping DM is L3/L4. L3 is rarely used, though it can be effective, and L4 is usually just amazing, though it takes a while to get there.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Feb 24 2023, 12:40 pm by Decency.

Dark mage owns even though i don't like playing her cause she is a bit slow. In my opinion is she pretty similar to the assassin. I think it is hard to kill her because of her Lv2. Once you're able to combo Lv2 Lv3 Lv4 she's scaryyyyyy SCARY! haha especially if the player's weapon upgrade is high.

About the leveling i don't think she's that bad. you can 1 hit brood with a few upgrades and you also have storm. also if your allies are any good you can get 1/4 of their exp too so it's not that big of a problem.

FaZ-, I know what you're saying, the DM is a great stunlocking class. In 1.4 I used this class all the time, to the point of redundancy. It's truly an awesome class.

Now take this into 1.5. It doesn't have nearly the effectiveness that it used to. Armor dropped, attack lowered, and maelstrom costs almost twice as much. This already extremely slow class that only barely inches out the templar has probably the weakest offense in the game. My perfect team doesn't have a DM in it. Psion, Med, Assassin crush any team with a DM in it.

Regardless of the DM being a good support unit, like the Med, it's extremely weak. The difference is that the Med's abilities affect the mid and late games far more effectively than the DM's. I can solo a decent sized reaver army using just a Med. DM's can't do that.

i dont like playing DM because people always run past me at my dark orb and own it for the massive exp... theyre usually classes i cant easily mael either like a spread bunch of summoned goblins or mech, volt, etc.

You must have skipped out on all of the 1.4M versions, where all those changes were originally made. Maelstrom and the Dark Archon's energy was changed because perma-strom (provided the DM had 25 mana) was almost as bad as perma-psi storm would be. There was really no reason for her to have 2 armor... she only has straight armor and attack to upgrade, unlike other classes which may have split upgrades.

I should have specified that I don't do comparisons with 1.5 heroes. Your argument in comparison with the Psion may hold. However, that probably means the Psion should be reduced in power rather than the DM elevated.

This is true of course. These changes were effective in a 1.4 game. At that time this was intended to balance the DM with others. I have played these games and still found the DM to be very effective. In a 1.5 game where most everyone has been buffed or balanced and new classes added this is a noticeable deficiency for the DM.

Having split upgrades isn't as much a problem as you might think. And there aren't that many that have split upgrades actually.


I'd agree with that. The Psion is pretty Op frankly. Still, I haven't seen anyone play a DM in a 1.5 game and survive longer than the first couple of turns. Which would have been me anyway since I appear to be the only person who'll play this class.

Change the L3. Make it anything else that's useful. That, at the very least could be done without anyone freaking out.

Now I think, and guys, I'd need your input with this.... is that DM feels weaker in v1.5 because it is not as capable to gaining experience due to the new spawning system/heroes.

Back in v1.4, it was okay since it can storm and keep up with the experience.. but with the marine thrown into the mix (which really is the only way I think can balance out the summoner, plus it makes the game more exciting), it is harder for DM to score points, while it is ezier for others to... This has been addressed by testers the first time they played it with the new spawns X.x..

Now what I'm planning to do is give the DM a double spell 1.... when its Dark Archon is out, if the DM re-uses spell 1, the DA will explode, causing a "dark energy explosion" or some other cool name which MAY do the following things:
1. Decreases closeby foes' mana.
2. Increases Energy for DM if she is near
3. Paralyze spawns at the site of explosion
4. Control spawns at the site of explosion
5. Spawns 2-4 broodlings at the site of explosion
6. ... some ideas from you guys...

Obviously not ALL these stuffs will happen.. but probly a combination of these things...
So why would this be a good idea? Firstly, I think that this would stop people from harrassing the Dark Archon too much.. Secondly, it would be a first spell that can finally affect the spawns more. Technically it requires 50 mana to pull it off, but the dark orb can be saved and one can use up all its energy before sacrificing it.. Third, doing this would allow me to make mealstorm cost a lil less energy, but also a lil less health. This would give the DM more incentive to either protect the DA or sacrifice it... which I think would add to the gameplay.

What'd u guys think?

Energy + Broodlings. Otherwise, it might be a good idea to teleport the DM to the DA by sacrificing it.

I like the teleport idea.

I'm not as for the teleport idea...

First, it is more of a PvP/retreat spell, so it won't do much against spawns (even if it did kill them at the site of explosion)
Second, it would be too Über in combo with other spells, i.e. casting l4 or l3 ahead of time, mealstrom, run up, teleport and instantly cursed.

I think that it should be a multipurpose spell. It should stun heroes very briefly (in case they weren't maelstromed), drain about 10 mana and spawn 4 broodlings.

The reason behind this is because it is a light vs hero spell, it would decrease DA stalking, and provide slightly more offense to keep heroes from rushing. More importantly, it provides better vs spawns. Broodlings could kill other broodlings while having the option to consume them for storms on rines and broods.

Being that it is 50 mana to do this, it wouldn't be overly cheap in storming. Consume costs 15 energy, giving 140 energy- almost 3 storms, while sacrificing all broods. It would provide a much better vs spawns character, and more diversity in playing styles, ultimately getting more exp to get spells and start taking on heroes.

o_o i wouldnt mind if dark orb spawned with a variable hp depending on how much hp is upgraded on the DM =P makes it doesnt get like 3hit killed later ingame even if you dont like massively upgrade the otherwise useless protoss upgrades.

Agreed. I'm not sure the tele idea works, I think it brings it a little too close in line with Assassin maybe. Although, maybe that's a good thing.


A stun is too much I believe. It's just not right for this guy to have too many stuns at any one point. 50 Mana for Mael + Stun is just creepy and it's L1 too.

Burn+Broods sounds like the best idea. The Burn should be at least half the energy cost (25) I think. This way the DM really gets a significant benefit for upping Mana early on and has a reliable spell. Should this be done, the DM will need a slight HP nerf. Brood spawns + Mael + Mana burn for 50 energy is pretty decent for just two spell casts.

Altogether, I'd say Teleport + Broods or Burn + Broods. Either one suits this class where it's really hurting. Teleport does make sense for a Mage, and L3 is technically a Burn, so, I'm voting Teleport + Broods atm. It's less hassle to aim the already difficult to use spells of the DM and adds a much needed tactical advantage.

Edit: Bug - Firebat(Engineer) can create buildings in a way that causes the trigger to malfunction and repeatedly create marines/tanks and at times will give the marines to the player. Engineer can also attack own allies.

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Apr 1 2009, 2:47 am by Crackhead.