Trying to convert people to your religion, I can understand it if they are broken and truely discontent and unhappy, but if that person already lives a good life why is there a need?

I think that if you believe in god it is a good mindset to see him as a friend. He is always there to talk to, converse with, and is always forgiving, just like the perfect friend we wish we all had in read life. Though I believe in god, I think that all coincidences or sudden changes in your life because you "spoke with god" are phycologically linked or purely coincidence. And belief like this is just like having an imaginary friend, you are just talking inside your head with your self. I have never experienced an act of god or physical proof, but my belief is based off of carma, It seems that when I do things that i know are bad, I suffer very soon after, like suddenly getting sick.

So everyone ends up in heaven.


Personally, I would not want to live in "a perfect world" for an eternity. What would there be to do? You would know everything, all your questions in life would be answered, and almost all the people you loved would be in hell. I think thats why we need to focus on living our lives to the fullest while we are on this Earth, here god has granted us choices and given us challenges, which shape our personality and keep things interesting.

Doesn't this mind set affect your relation ship with your Aunt? Do you not see your self above her in life because you know you will live forever in heaven? And give me one reason, not a quote out of the bible or that she didn't accept jesu, but one good reason why she doesn't deserve eternal life if she is the nicest person you know.

I see where your coming from on self worship, but you obviously missed the part
I did not create this universe, I have no control of most of the events that occur in my life, but this is the life I have been granted, and I try to make the best of it.


Is there not something wrong with Jesus being the father AND the son? I definatly do not believe that Jesus is god, I could see maybe that Jesus could be a part of god, but as far as I'm concerned Jesus was just a very successful leader and martyr.

But your Aunt is going to hell. And my father definatly did not fail to mention that Jesus is the only way into heaven, and that is most definatly where my disagreements about christianity started from.

If I'm wrong then I'll my mind will either completely shut down and no thought will ever enter my brain again and I will essentially be wiped out into nothingness, or I will have to endure an eternity of pain and torment in hell, but I will know that I took the risk my whole life for something I truely believed in. If nothing else, at least I lived more than an average life, for seriously trying to seek out answers to life, instead of just following what some one else or a book has told you.


I think you are missreading me, what Im saying is that the answer to all of life's unknown questions is not simply GOD. You are the one making your higher power easy to understand, I am just trying to seek more knowlage from life. And of course you can never know everything, there is always room for evolution and expantion.


I hope I didnt come across as too hostile, but these are the types of arguments and discussions I love, neither of us is going to persuade one another, but we will just be forced to defend our selves and think deeper about our beliefs which will intern just strengthen our possitions. So thank you.

You're basically repeating yourself: that Christ is the savior and that you have to repent in order to go to Heaven. Why is this the way it is? Again that's only a small piece of the puzzle; what's higher up on this hierarchy chart illustrating the "truth?" This can be dissected without even once mentioning the second witness of Chirst.

Here, see this:
- Who is Jesus? What is he like? How does he live out his live?
- What has this man done wrong in his life to deserve to die? (Note: this is not the same as asking why did the jews want him crucified)
- Are we equally as blameless?
- Knowing that Jesus, a blameless and pure man (well except for claiming that he is the son of God) was tortured, beat up, and hung on a cross to die, how do you think that would make the rest of us, who are full of reprehensible qualities and have done much wrong in our lives, feel?

This is more the "truth" we've discussed in our Bible study. Jesus Christ was a man who lived out a pure and blameless life and yet he died for all our sins while we all stand here living and breathing and not have any of this crucifixion upon us. That's not fair to Jesus, he didn't do anything to deserve any of these horrible and cruel actions. So... why? Jesus Christ is the very definition of the sacrifice. In the old Testament, as a way of showing your repentance God would command his people to sacrifice their most valuable belongings (e.g. sheep in their time as they were very valuable to the shepards.) It's like you sacrificing say... your life's savings, or perhaps even someone really close to you in life like your family member or relative. Jesus has come as our sacrifice, and then that's where you add the pieces of the puzzle.

Yes, very true, such discussions definitely drive us to think deeper about our beliefs which is good, but one has to be careful about this mindset particularly the part in red. That mindset can be the root of all problems; flare which only hardens one's heart (from what I've seen this is the ultimate reason why there's such a schism between the left/democrats and the right/republicans.) If one is not convinced by someone's beliefs, it should be because from his or her own understanding and way of thinking that his or her beliefs and ideas are more correct than the others as opposed to just a selfish and closed-minded attitude in where people simply stick with beliefs only because of their bitter dislike of the other side.
Now when I said this:
I didn't mean it in the way that it would automatically strengthen my beliefs no matter what. In fact, after doing some research I tend to find some things many authors and writers which clash with my current beliefs (thus opening up my mind more and making me more aware of such situations and yearning more for answers.)

The ones I don't like are the ones who after having been brought to attention of particular questions and issues simply ignore them and move on (a bit unrelated but IMO these type of people consist of a large portion of Republicans which is why it irks me when people claim that Republicans are people who cling to religion when in fact many of them are quite apathetic and lack seriousness in their devotions, almost as if they had none to begin with. And this is based off my observations from living in the largest Republican State)

Post has been edited 4 time(s), last time on Mar 29 2009, 8:35 am by MillenniumArmy.

I could answer all of those, if able to quote from the BoM, however, using the Bible alone, they are indefinite, hence me saying that you need two witnesses.

Then do me a favor and enlighten me. I can actually agree with Mormonism's afterlife ideas and that they are pretty fair, but the things I just mentioned are definitely keeping me from seriously considering having anything to do with the LDS church.

Ya you are right, looking back on that it does seem very close minded, I didn't mean it as I will never change my view point, its just these things usually turn out that way.

Hey, i literally just gave you the answers in the paragraph following the list that you quoted. The stuff I said can all be seen and inferred from the Bible. I can quote the passages if you want me to, but as a Christian yourself I trust that you should be aware of where in the Bible I got my answers from. Those questions I asked are some of the most basic fundamentals about the very religion (as a whole) we follow and if you're saying that we cannot find the answers to such things using the Bible alone, then you're saying that all the nonbelievers are justified in their criticism of the Bible (which i'm sure you would strongly disagree with.)

And no, I'm not in seminary class. I only mentioned it because the pastor at this Church I go to happened to talk about it during one of his sermons (it really pays to actually pay attention to these things )

All I can say is read the BoM, I've read it almost 20 times through and I see no way that a 14 year old farm boy could write such a flawless book, and if that's true, the rest follows.


At the same time, I'm certain several other churches understand it differently, as there is open ground for interpretation. I guess the way you explained it took it the full way, I'm used to being in classes with other kids who have been in Sunday School for most of their lives and know the basic fundamentals, so I'm used to giving those surface answers, as the rest is already known.

Ok, so out of curiosity I want to know what your answer(s) would be? And you can use any source you want.

Jesus is our Savior, our elder brother, the creator of the world. He is the only perfect being to have ever lived upon the Earth, for a more perfect description of him, this is an awesome testimony from the leaders of the LDS church.


Jesus never did any wrong, during the War in Heaven Jesus volunteered to be the one who would atone for the sins of the world, his path was preordained. More info can be found here.


We are all sinners, and without Jesus' atonement we could not be saved from our sins.


I actually think that this is answered very well in the words of a hymn.

Just a quick note:
It looks to me like they're evangelists. They use a quote from a 20th century evangelist here, and here they mention a program they have called Team Evangelism.

Also, people, keep in mind that he doesn't seem to be arguing against the existence of God and the validity of the Christian faith, but rather the manner in which it is spread, and how sometimes it seems a little more forceful than what would be fair (i.e. "If you don't believe, you go to hell" type statements).

As for research on other religions to do research on, Islam may be a good start, as you said, but I think it's a little overused. Maybe try Hinduism, or Taoism? You may want to read up a little on the Knights Templar and the crusades as well.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Mar 30 2009, 1:51 am by FatalException.

Except for those who reject Christ.

I think we can conclude that living in a Paradise eternally is better than suffering eternally. And you've never even experienced a 'perfect world'. We're not even trying to live in a 'perfect world'. We're just trying to live beside God.

I'm sorry it took me so long to respond. I kept leaving the post in and coming back later to see it completely gone. I'll address a few points of interest. I agree with what BeDazed said, and also:


I'm not being mean when I say this, but you are ignorant of what the Bible really says about Heaven. It isn't just a place with fluffy clouds everywhere. This excites me. I know you may laugh at that, but it does. I Corinthians 2:9 says "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." Now we don't know what Heaven is going to be like besides what the Bible says so anything I say will be my speculation. Right here it says we don't know so don't get down on me for this . I was talking to my Bio teacher to see if he was a Christian (I was curious), and he had more of a mindset like you do. He told me the same thing, he thought Heaven would be boring, but he said that if he could picture a paradise for himself he would want to be in a jungle, and everywhere you looked there would be a new animal. I believe there will be new animals in Heaven, and also the ones we see here on this earth. The Bible says "Eye hath not seen" we'll see minerals, plants, animals, and many other things we've never seen before and things that have never "entered into the heart of man"

You think that God's first creation looked beautiful: with the sunsets and sunrises, and the waterfalls, and mountains, and ect. This was only God's first creation of the Earth. See when people think of "Heaven" they really have the wrong idea. We'll be in Heaven with God until the book of Revelations is fulfilled in reality (Rapture, Tribulation, Millennial Reign). Then as the Bible says in Rev. 21:1 "And I say a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea." The earth and heavens (what we see when we look up; not the throne where God is) will pass away. God will make a new Earth: "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth." So look around right now. This earth is beautiful even with what we have done to it. Even with the curses of God upon it. Imagine a world that God made without any touch of sin or man's work on it. It would be like the Garden of Eden was at the first. With all kinds of plants, trees, fruits, and unnamed animals. Not only that, but I as a musician am excited by the second part of that first verse: "nor ear heard." Heaven will surely have many musical instruments and many new sounds to hear.

Nowhere in the Bible (from what I know) does it say you will be granted an immense amount of wisdom as soon as you get to Heaven. There will be plenty of time to talk to people from the past, your life, and the future. There will be Jesus to talk to and ask questions of also I'm sure. To get two birds with one stone, this is why we try to convert people. The Bible says in Jude 1:22 & 23 "And some have compassion, making a difference: And other save with fear, pulling them out of the fire;" I don't bug people. I try not to anyway. If they say "no" then I'll take that as an answer, but when there is a Hell I don't just skimp on Jesus' Great Commission of "preach the gospel to every creature". So then my loved ones will be with me in Heaven.


#1. No it doesn't. Growing up has separated me from my Aunt. My dad used to take me over to her house when I was little when he went to work (my parent's being divorced), and so I've only grown away because of that. Other than that I love her, and I could never see myself as any better. The only plea I have is the blood of Jesus Christ. I don't find myself being higher than her.

#2. She doesn't deserve eternal life because no one is good enough to get to Heaven on their own. We don't have enough strength to climb the stairway to Heaven. We don't have enough building blocks to finish the Tower of Babel even if God would have permitted. I couldn't do it even if I would have tried. My dad, who is also a good man, could not have made himself a home in Heaven without Jesus either. Since you asked, I won't quote the Bible and I'll just leave my personal testimony.


According to the Bible Jesus Christ is the Word: John 1:14 & 15 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,| John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me." John was sent to bear witness of Jesus: John 1:29-30 "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me." So Jesus Christ = The Word right? The Bible says in John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." So to simplify it it reads "In the beginning was Jesus Christ, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God."

In a couple other points:

1. *God is only one Lord - Mark 12:29 "The Lord our God is one Lord:"
*God is only to be worshiped - Matthew 4:10 "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." (Just so you know both of these are not the full verses, to save me and you both time)
*Jesus is worshiped, so he must be God - Matthew 1:11 "And when they {the 3 kings} were come into the house, they saw the young child {Jesus Christ} with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshiped him:" The three kings came, because they read about the Messiah of the Jews in one of Old Testament books of prophecy. Also look - Matthew 28:17, Luke 24:52, Hebrews 1:6

2. In Isaiah 9:6 the Bible speaks of Jesus Christ - "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." It calls Jesus (the child/son) "The mighty God" and "The everlasting Father".

This doctrine is called The Trinity. God is made up of three separate personages God the Father God the Holy Ghost God the Son who are all three the same personage God. They are all three one, and separate at the same time. He isn't as easy to understand as I before made him out to be. Just like we humans have a Body, Spirit, and Soul.

---

You didn't come across as hostile. If my colors are too much, tell me. They help me to stay awake.

I always like hearing that I'm going to hell because I don't believe that Jesus is the son of god and... you get the point. When it boils down to it, I suppose that I just don't really care. I could never follow a leader who is willing to condemn anyone to eternal "damnation." Call me a conscientious objector (besides the fact that I don't believe in any of this fictitious literature to begin with), but to me, the driving principle of Christianity is fear. Fear of damnation, fear of sinning... and worship of a martyr - I forget who wrote it, but I paraphrase, "If Jesus had died twenty years ago, Christian children would be wearing electric chairs around their necks." Instead of writing about how wonderful the world is, what kind of potential we have, the bible spurs us into action to avoid going down there at the end of our lives. I suppose some of us simply feel compelled to be skeptical of what we read and to seek out more evidence than is simply presented to us at first glance.

Besides being born into a particular faith, what drives people to pick up the mantle of Christianity? Because it sits well with their conscience? I will always feel that one of the biggest practical jokes society plays on itself is indoctrinating children into faith before they have the faintest trace of rational thought, and those chains are difficult for many people to shrug off. If doing what you feel to be right in your heart is not enough alone, if worship is also required, I would have to turn my back.

I completely agree with you here, none knows what it would be like (if it exsisted) And if it does I would think that our minds would be exposed to all the things incevable and unknown to us now. (Things like new colors and new sounds, they are imposible to think of) But personally, I definatly would want things to stay interesting, and I really love life here on Earth, so I would hope that that love would carry through and the things that make up life, good and bad, would still be present. Thats the reason I want to live life to the fullest as of now, my vision of heaven is the life I am currently living (except afew things could always be better) so if all of us are wrong, and there is absolutely nothing after death, at least I truely got my time in "heaven".

Kind of sounds like a post apocolyptic world after our human race has been completely destroyed, and years of natural evolution have created new plants and and animals, and eventually a human like race will apear again. (Chaos Theory?) Anyway this is getting off topic, but I do have a question, do you deny science and evolution? Is the story of Adam and Eve truely how the human race was created?

Sounds to me like talking with people of the past, the future, and Jesus would be infinant knowlage. But will your loved ones truely be there? Your aunt for example, if you love her and you love having in your life, but if she goes to hell that means she can't be in your heaven.

good point, I definatly think we need to humble ourselves and not fall into our own egos and selfworship, but we can gain strength from eachother too.


I have heard and I realize that this idea justifies Jesus being god through the bible. But I still dont thank jesus for the world that we live on.
Just out of curiosity, can you expand on the Spirit? No one ever explains what it actually is and where it fits into the puzzle.


And dont worry, I dont mind the colors, it makes me apreciate the time and effort you put into this duscussion, not to mention all the quotes and scriptures you reference.


Another problem I have is the bible itself, no one can ever really defend christianity without it, of course it is filled with justification and answers to opposition, but that just means someone smart and thoughtful wrote it to be that way. There is no way to validate the creditability of the humans who did write it, the words have probably been diluted and mistranslated through the languages, and not to mention that the second that god sent his thoughts into a man's head to write (thats how I figure it would have occured) the writing would already be impure, and what if the writer did not comprehend or have a way of explaining what was said, he would have to put it into his own words, and dilute the truth to make it easier to comprehend. It also was writen so long ago, I understand that the basic lessons of life sustain through the thousands of years, but so many things are invalid in the age we live in now. I also kind of have a problem with blindly following a book that was writen by man thousands of years ago, a book just tells you how to live and answers all of life's questions, it seems to easy doesn't it? Wouldnt life be kind of pointless if all we had to do was to follow a book that has been here for years? There is so much that we have achieved as a race in the past 2000 years, if everyone followed only the bible none of that would have happened.



Good points, It doesn't seem like Jesus is a very good leader if he tortures the nicest and kindest people in the world just because they don't love him. What happened to the friend that still loved you even though you dont love him back? Eternal pain and torment doesnt seem like a very friendlike gesture.

The use of fear to gain power is another very good point, I dont think all religions do this but Catholics especially. Fear is how animals gain power over eachother. Fear is what leaders like hitler and Osama Bin Laden use to gain power. I stongly believe that seeking power over others is evil, and Im pretty sure we as humans are not suposed to act evil or as animals. It always seemed to me that churches try to gain power, there is no denial of that.

I do not deny science, but when science denies itself it kind of turns me off. I am very much into Chemistry, I loved my biology classes, and I always will. I say it denied itself, because some of these theories that deny what the Bible says are totally bunk if you ask me. I'm doing my own study on it, and am right now an amatuer, but I do know that one of the things about science is that things are reproducable in experiments. "Test Your Hypothesis by Doing an Experiment." - this is what a website said. I haven't heard of someone who actually had an experiment where they had 1 animal evolve into another. I wont' get into this more. Because of some things in my life, I won't be posting here again. I enjoy talking, but some things have come up.

I believe that Adam and Eve were the first humans, I believe that Noah has his ark, and I have no doubt that my God was big enough to speak the world into existence. I figure if I believe what Jesus done for me I might as well believe the rest of the Bible. Though even some Christians would disagree. I'll step out by faith.


Yes, I am saddened by that every day. I will continue to witness to her, and as a hymnal song says patiently win her. I will have my Grandpa in Heaven, my Father, my best friend, my aunt who died as a baby, and many others. It is a heart-breaking part of life.


I can expand a little - When God made man he made him in His own image. Just like God is 3 in 1 (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) we are three in one (Body, Soul, Spirit). Whether or not you agree with that, this is what I believe. Now when man sinned, his spirit died. The spirit, from what I understand, is what communes with God. When his spirit died he was put apart from God. Now, we can accept Jesus Christ, and our spirit is revived. Then we can through the spirit speak to God's Holy Spirit. That is as far as I know. There are many things I still need to know, but I hope that helps. I'm at school right now so I can't quote as many verses. I do have my Bible, but I'm also trying to wrap things up. When God said in Genesis that "Ye shall surely die." He spoke of the spirit. Romans chapter 8 has a lot on the spirit. Maybe not what you're looking for though. I'm sorry. From my church's website www.blessedhopebaptistchurch.com I get this:

The amazing thing about the Bible was the several men wrote it, but one God authored it. I step out by faith in order to believe what it says, I'll admit that. If you see that as a weakness then that's fine with me. Everyone has faith in something, whether it is the Bible, the Torah, the Kuran, their logic, other's logic, and so on. Whether someone wants to admit to that or not they do. They have trust that something is right. All of the time they trust that something else other than themselves is right. Yes they may be relying on themselves, but they set their feet in someone elses ideas. That was free.



Whoa! Just so you know my church doesn't care about power, but that is besides the point. Jesus Christ has never condemned anyone. I gave verses on that. Yes, that friend still loves you back, but if you don't want to be near him then he won't force you to. It's your choice this whole time. Do you know who condemns people to eternal torment? John 3:17-18 "For god sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." People condemn themselves to Hell. The plan of Salvation is this simple. 1. Realize your a sinner. 2. Understand there is a penalty for your sins. 3. Realize Jesus paid for your sins. 4. Understand that all you have to do is: Romans 10:9 & 13 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. | For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."



Anyway. No hard feelings. I've got to go. Have a good one all. I won't be back, like I said, because of reasons in my life. Thanks for the debate and conversation.

Rory, in case you get into a bad spot and have to argue this point:
Here is an example of a study in which scientists observe microevolution in fruit flies (fruit flies in a wine cellar having a higher tolerance of alcohol than those outside the wine cellar), and here is a selection that says a little about geneticists' work in proving the theory of natural selection, one of the most important and well-known mechanics of evolution.

People who are saying that the Bible has the answers to all of the questions asked, going back to my first post it is all translated into countless languages that have different meanings for different words. There have also been a few kings that have said "I don't like what it says here. I'm changing that." so they did. If knowing the answer to everything was as simple as looking in a book then there would be no arguing. and this would be irrelevant. There is only one thing that basic physics laws and logic can't answer for me and that is if everything is made out of atoms and atoms are basically the same just missing one or two protons from one another how in maximum quantity can just taking one little thing away from it can it change krypton to sodium. and how if everything is made of non-living materials come together to form cells which then make living things? frankly I don't know what i believe in. I'm just happy living by my personal moral standards.

Sounds like the basic point I believe in, and that everyone should be free to choose what ever religion they wish.

Its tobad our debates end here, I too enjoyed the conversation, it has made me rethink many beliefs I have. I think you've prepared me for the most exact opossition of the bible, so once again thanks, and I'm sorry that you will no longer beable to contribute.

@FatalException
I don't see how anyone can deny evolution, It completely makes sense and we can see it in day to day life everywhere. Now I do think that evolution human minds undergo is quite different from natural evolution, which will be my next topic....
But I guess you could say that the fact that god created the earth in 7 days was misstranslated, each "day" may really be 1 million years or so.

In the Bible somewhere (I forget where) they describe God's "day" as like a thousand or more of our 365 day years. I think the creation account in Genesis meant those "days" as God's "day" as opposed to 24 hour days (and this is further backed with evolution, dinosaurs, fossils, and even the big bang theory.)

That it definitely not a passage to be taken literally. You start going into cult-ish interpretations when you extrapolate that much. http://www.geocities.com/heartland/7547/thousand.html
And even if that were true, it would only be 6 thousand years, which isn't even a blip on the big bang timeline.

It's Second Peter 3:8-10
It's clear he is just talking about how god can get something done in a day, that would take us a thousand years, or patiently waiting for a thousand years on something as if it were simply a day. Christian cults pervert this passage to somehow invent an exact Heaven-to-Earth Time-Flow. When you read it you definitely get the sense that Peter just picked a really big number off the top of his head to illustrate his really big god.