Yea, the point I think Peter was making is that God's frame of time is different than ours (to illustrate this, he made an analogy with the 1000 years being like 1 "day.") In Genesis, I believe those "days" to be more as metaphors of time (how long those "days" are I don't know but like I've said in the past the point Moses was making isn't about how long these days were, but the fact that God was the one behind all this.)

Quote from MillenniumArmy

Yea, the point I think Peter was making is that God's frame of time is different than ours

No, that is not the point peter is making at all. You have to get out of this idea of a faster/slower flow of time between Heaven and Earth. That God is tremendously patient(able to wait through a thousand years as if it were a day), and tremendously powerful(able to do something in a day, that would otherwise take thousands of years).

Oh right, my bad. Yeah, that's something I never really looked into that much.

So I confirmed the meeting tomorrow, they still think I am not in high school, and I still don't know how formal this discussion (or how much of it is actually going to be revolved around my letter) will be.

I plan to bring up:
-What happens to those who have never heard of Jesus, even if they are moral and good people?
-How can you blindly follow ancient scripture that is imposible to validate the credibility of the writers?
-Saying god created everything and ignoring science and evolution is ignorant, there is still so much we don't know about the universe and life, and we should seek more knowlage of how things work instead of just using god as an answer to everything. We as humans do not know everything.
-Why does god want us just to be followers and sheep our entire lives? Are we not suposed to use the mind we have been blessed with and expand our thoughts?
-Speaking with god is basicly like speaking to an imaginary friend, you may only notice the coincidences that are in your favor or think things change because you "speak" to god but really these events are just pyscological or coincidental.
-Why should you think lower of someone who has different beliefs? And why would someone who is good be condemed to eternal torment just because of their beliefs?
-And finally at the end I will tell them my beleif of god and heaven, about this world, and about our purpose.


Ill be sure to inform you all of what happens, and thank you for helping me debate, expand, and suport these subjects.

I fear by now you are already on your way to becoming an evangelical christian.

Quote from RoryFenrir

I plan to bring up:
-What happens to those who have never heard of Jesus, even if they are moral and good people?

The bible contradicts itself all over this, but they will only tell you passages concerning their interpretation. The fact is the bible never specifically talks about what happens to people that never hear the gospel. The authors didn't think that fair ahead, leading me to believe it is not divinely inspired. My bet is they are going to feed you the worst BS, which is that everyone goes to hell because god actually did reveal himself to everyone..... THROUGH THE BEAUTY OF NATURE LOL
But of course the bible is kind enough to offer you a contradiction to shut them up

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"If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin."
-John 15:22

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-How can you blindly follow ancient scripture that is imposible to validate the credibility of the writers?

This is going to be your worst question. you have no idea what you are talking about here, and are only musing on something you might have heard on the discovery channel. If there's one thing Christian scholars can do, it's talk your head off about how the bible has remained remarkably consistent for thousands of years(watch - The Case For Christ)

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-Saying god created everything and ignoring science and evolution is ignorant, there is still so much we don't know about the universe and life, and we should seek more knowlage of how things work instead of just using god as an answer to everything. We as humans do not know everything.

Just reading this alone tells me how backwards you are, and I shiver at the thought of how they are going to be taking advantage of you because of your weak points. "We humans do not know everything" REALLY?! Have you read the bible at all before you decided to pick this fight?! The bible never says we know everything, and that we are foolish if we think so. Christianity has never discouraged the seeking of knowledge of how things work. Many christian sects, including the original - Catholicism, accept evolution. Christian scientists have helped science for years discovering how things work, it's ORIGIN science that they have a disagreement with, and origin science doesn't really help us day-to-day with its advancements.

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-Why does god want us just to be followers and sheep our entire lives? Are we not suposed to use the mind we have been blessed with and expand our thoughts?

This is a good one, but I would say it better. Why does god give us the ability to sin, and then what nothing to do with us when we use that free will freely? If god is everything, how the hell does he have an opposite? The only opposite of everything is nothing, so sin could only actually be nothing, or non-existence, but masturbating is definitely something, so why does God hate that part of himself so much? God gave us free will so we aren't machines, but he is most pleased when we act in that perfect no-sin-machine way.

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-Speaking with god is basicly like speaking to an imaginary friend, you may only notice the coincidences that are in your favor or think things change because you "speak" to god but really these events are just pyscological or coincidental.

This is only a good point if you are well versed in psychology, because for once the burden of proof is now upon you. I just don't think you're educated enough yet to make this point.

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-Why should you think lower of someone who has different beliefs? And why would someone who is good be condemed to eternal torment just because of their beliefs?

Because the bible explicitly says jesus is the only way. I find the only thing you can attack here is the way they look at things, which you must first truly understand. This was probably the most enlightening thing I've learned in dealing with the christian psyche. Hell is your birthright. If it just came down to getting what is fair and what you deserve in the afterlife, everyone would go to hell. The only reason some people go to heaven is because God did something so that certain people wouldn't get what they deserve - an eternity in hellfire. Salvation isn't something god gave us because he thought it wasn't fair that your whole race is destined to hellfire, he just thoguht to himself "You know, even though they are no where near good enough to ever get into heaven, I'll hold a lottery few a lucky few." So your task is to make the case for human kind; we do NOT deserve an eternity in torment.
-And finally at the end I will tell them my beleif of god and heaven, about this world, and about our purpose.


Ill be sure to inform you all of what happens, and thank you for helping me debate, expand, and suport these subjects.[/quote]
I expect that you will be converted the next time we hear from you.

So tonight wasnt at all what i expected. Basicly this is the start of a 12 week program called alpha, there are booklets, activities and lesson plans. Each night the pastor talks a bit about a topic, then the group of people at each table discuss that topic. There are 2 tables, each with 8 people. I was looking through the booklet and it is full of Jesus related subjects, it is well writen and full of quotes and selective scriptures from the bible (some of these i recognized from this topic ) these lessons basicly leave no room for argument, everything brought up is completely backed up.

Tonight they just talked about "Who is Jesus" and then we just got to know the people at the table by questions like "If you were on a desert island what would you bring?" "If your house was on fire what would you take out of it?" "What is your earliest memory?" and "why are you here tonight?"
on the last one there were alot of "im just searching for more answers" or "my life was a wreck before i found jesus, and im thirsty for more" and then mine
"I am here because i wrote a letter about my views and beliefs to this church, I am not a christian, I do not think Jesus is the one to be worshiped. I do believe in humbling yourself to a higher power but i also think that we are to use our time on this earth wisely and live our lives to their fullest. I want to discuss religion so i can learn more about the world and life in general."

I am the youngest by 4 years at my table, but i dont know if ill continue attending these meetings, so far they are not really what i had in mind. Also i dont really know how well ill beable to conect with the people at my table, I kinda hate to say it but most of them definatly fit into local stereotypes, such as hicks or trailer trash.... Ill definatly go to the next one, or the next one that I can, and ill see how the format and subject material will be like after the first day.



I did find one thing pretty questionable,
The pastor said something to the effect of "Jesus said he would come back and judge the world on his return. He said he will banish those who are not with me and my followers."

I thought that "not judge people" was one of those things we were tought in elementry school, I still strongly beleive that there is more to people than whether or not they believe in Jesus. And just looking at the quote of him saying he will banish those who are not with him? That sounds kind of like the dictator who kills people for speaking out agaisnt him. Its still using fear to gain power.



In math today i aslo got to have a religious and political debate with my fellow peers. It was pretty much me agaisnt the three girls in that class, they all completely denied evolution, and were pretty serious about their religion. I did have the support of the other guys in my class who were listening in, but it was pretty fun.

Quote from Falkoner

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So anyways Falkoner, I'm curious as to what you think about the Book of Job? Why did you think God did what he did to the guy? What was the moral to that story?

A similar question, but one that is more easily answered, would be why would God have asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac? You also cannot forget that the Lord eventually ended up blessing Job more abundantly than he was previously, why are we tempted? Why must good people die? 1 Cor. 10:13 says:

Quote from 1 Corinthians 10:13

"There hath no temptation taken you but such that is common to man, but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that you are able, but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

We have temptations, in this case, Job was tempted to "curse god and die", however, the Lord always creates a way for us to get out of it, and when we do we are blessed for obeying him. If you'd like a better explaination of it, I can also give that as well, if you would like.

Another interpretation of that story (or maybe it was in a certain version of the Bible? I don't remember) is that God did not do those things to Job, but rather Satan did it, to tempt him to "curse God and die", and God did not interfere.

Quote from Vrael

The case then becomes "Well who are we to say that "fire-and-brimstone" in one situation and "good and all loving" in another weren't the perfect actions?"
To this, there is no reasonable answer, just as the statement above is not reasonable. The statement above omits the objective of the actions. That is to say, the actions need to be perfect with respect to some goal. Anyone could argue that God's actions are perfect, and anyone could argue that God's actions are imperfect, merely by taking different objectives for God's actions, and if the objective taken is precise enough, then the logic behind the argument will be infallible, and we will end up with a version of an imperfect God and a perfect God.

Relating this back to the original statement about the dual natures of God in the bible, if we are to take the objective for the fire-and-brimstone God to be the objective which makes the fire-and-brimstone argument infallible, then the good-and-all-loving argument will have no objective for which the argument is infallible, and vice versa. This is what I see as the reason for bible study classes to teach that one approach is the "wrong" approach, and another would be the "right" approach, with the consequence of the irreconciliation being loss of faith in the bible.

One interpretation I've heard of is that the "good and all loving" in some situations and the "fire-and-brimstone" in others is the difference between whether the people might change their ways or if they will only get worse if left alive, respectively.

Quote from ShadowFlare

One interpretation I've heard of is that the "good and all loving" in some situations and the "fire-and-brimstone" in others is the difference between whether the people might change their ways or if they will only get worse if left alive, respectively.

That certainly is one interpretation, however, it in no way invalidates the contradiction I posted about, and it is not reasonable since it omits the objective of the actions of God. Or if it doesn't omit anything and I'm simply missing it, please explain how it does more fully.

In other words, one interpretation of the destruction is that God is being merciful in doing so, because then the people will be better off in the afterlife than they would had they been allowed to live out the rest of their lives, being allowed to continue to sin more and more.

Quote from ShadowFlare

Satan did it, to tempt him to "curse God and die", and God did not interfere.

Actually god did interfere, essentially cheating the devil with the bet he made with him. Job thought long and hard about it, and was ready to curse god until god fucking SPOKE to him saying "Oh I knoooooooooooow you ain't even thinkin' about doubtin me job! Are you retarded?! Do you know how fucking strong I am?!"

lol, well my point was about the interpretation of who did that other stuff to Job, not whether God helped Job or not.

Yeah, it's just people are usually told about the story of job in a way that makes it sound like job freely chose not to curse god. It's probably the most popular falsehood out there about the bible.

Quote from ShadowFlare

In other words, one interpretation of the destruction is that God is being merciful in doing so, because then the people will be better off in the afterlife than they would had they been allowed to live out the rest of their lives, being allowed to continue to sin more and more.

I don't understand: Is this supposed to invalidate what I said in some way or are you not talking to me? If it is supposed to refute my argument, please explain that that is the intention and how it actually refutes it. If not, please be less confusing about who you're talking to. I'm under the impression that you mean it to show my argument to be false in some way (since your post followed mine, lacked quotation, and the last person to post before you and me was like 4 or 5 days ago), but if you read my argument fully you'd see that it really doesn't contradict what I've said at all. Or if you have read and understood my argument fully, and still think it does, I don't see how it invalidates anything, so please explain further.

The discussion was over why God would destroy some people, but in other cases try to get them to mend their ways, right?

I was just stating a potential reason, according to some people's interpretations, for God to do one in some cases and the other in other cases.

btw, in the cases where I didn't quote anyone, I was replying to the post directly above my own post. I usually only quote people if it is not the post directly above or if I'm only replying to a part of the post. If I notice someone else posted while I was typing my reply, I do add a quote to reference which post I'm replying to.

Quote from RoryFenrir

I did find one thing pretty questionable,
The pastor said something to the effect of "Jesus said he would come back and judge the world on his return. He said he will banish those who are not with me and my followers."

I thought that "not judge people" was one of those things we were tought in elementry school, I still strongly beleive that there is more to people than whether or not they believe in Jesus. And just looking at the quote of him saying he will banish those who are not with him? That sounds kind of like the dictator who kills people for speaking out agaisnt him. Its still using fear to gain power.

Wait, so, did you go in there not knowing about the concept of Rapture? That's kind of a big thing in Christianity...

I need to interject.

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Almost all religions have one thing in common, live a good and moral life, and you will in turn be rewarded- whether in this life or another

All religions have one thing in common, the supernatural.

On another note, in Iraq, the people will literally say (in-shah-la) which means "if god wills it" and walk into the street without looking. They believe the earth is the center of the universe, and if you reason with them they'll tell you "hah, no no. It says here in my book (Koran)" The culture these people have came up into makes it impossible for them to be opinionated or even school themselves(They can now). Religion is forced upon them, and contrary to common belief the Iraqis throw like girls.

Quote from Zell.

I need to interject.

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Almost all religions have one thing in common, live a good and moral life, and you will in turn be rewarded- whether in this life or another

All religions have one thing in common, the supernatural.

That is because religions serve one purpose to explain the unexplained.

It is the fear of the unknown that has created all these religions. Every religion offers some kind of answer to what will happen to me when i die. People don't want to die because they don't know what will happen. Will they cease to exist in any way shape or form? or will they still be themselves somehow?

I have no objections to whatever anyone decides to follow to be at peace with themselves but i can't follow anyone myself because i'm quite certain that none of them has the answer. This is why there is so much "believe" bs in religions. If you wrap your mind arround it logically your likely not to believe. In truth religions are basically cults that have grown so big that they have reached beyond their normal capacity and i mean if you look into what the members believe you find it insanely absurd and you can't imagine why any idiot would follow them.

It all comes back to that fear of the unknown. I know the first time I wrapped my head arround the idea that god did not exist I freaked out. I had been told for so many years, growing up a christian, that after we die we don't end completely but we get to go to hell or heaven based on how the judge decides. Suddenly if god is not real then how are any of the promises real. Since then iv'e come to the realization that i may cease to exist but am much happier now. I still have hope that i will not completely end and that i will be arround in some kind of afterlife even if its only a bit of energy roaming the universe.

Quote from killer_sss

Quote from Zell.

I need to interject.

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Almost all religions have one thing in common, live a good and moral life, and you will in turn be rewarded- whether in this life or another

All religions have one thing in common, the supernatural.

That is because religions serve one purpose to explain the unexplained.

It is the fear of the unknown that has created all these religions. Every religion offers some kind of answer to what will happen to me when i die. People don't want to die because they don't know what will happen. Will they cease to exist in any way shape or form? or will they still be themselves somehow?

I have no objections to whatever anyone decides to follow to be at peace with themselves but i can't follow anyone myself because i'm quite certain that none of them has the answer. This is why there is so much "believe" bs in religions. If you wrap your mind arround it logically your likely not to believe. In truth religions are basically cults that have grown so big that they have reached beyond their normal capacity and i mean if you look into what the members believe you find it insanely absurd and you can't imagine why any idiot would follow them.

It all comes back to that fear of the unknown. I know the first time I wrapped my head arround the idea that god did not exist I freaked out. I had been told for so many years, growing up a christian, that after we die we don't end completely but we get to go to hell or heaven based on how the judge decides. Suddenly if god is not real then how are any of the promises real. Since then iv'e come to the realization that i may cease to exist but am much happier now. I still have hope that i will not completely end and that i will be arround in some kind of afterlife even if its only a bit of energy roaming the universe.

My beliefs went through a similar phase as yours did. There was a period in my life of 1-2 years when I would think all the time things such as: "OMG- This stuff doesn't make sense, but God would be pissed if I questioned it" "Will I go to hell for not thinking God is real?" The brainwashing power that the churches manage to inflict us with while growing up is incredible. It took me nearly 2 years to discard the faith, but I would still NEVER even consider telling my family that I don't believe. It'd get disowned so fast.

Quote from Norm

My beliefs went through a similar phase as yours did. There was a period in my life of 1-2 years when I would think all the time things such as: "OMG- This stuff doesn't make sense, but God would be pissed if I questioned it" "Will I go to hell for not thinking God is real?" The brainwashing power that the churches manage to inflict us with while growing up is incredible. It took me nearly 2 years to discard the faith, but I would still NEVER even consider telling my family that I don't believe. It'd get disowned so fast.

yes i know the feeling. its especially hard when someone close to our family dies. everyone says there in a better place and they explain little wierd events as little messages to us from the dead person after they died. For example my dad avoided a major ticket when he was well over-weight in a semi hauling grains as his mother looking out for him and similairly my mom feels that at her mom's recent funeral my grandmother sent a little red cardinal bird flying up to the window several times. I just play along and pretend i somewhat believe. My sister is my only realative that knows how i truly feel about these gods that people believe in.

Its hard for me to both express how i feel but yet not cast my feelings as proof to them they should not believe. I don't like to influence another's beliefs although i don't mind having the ocasional discussion on why i believe what i believe and why they believe what they believe. I find it both interesting and a good learning expierence to exchange ideas as long as they understand that i'm not trying to influence what they believe.

Indeed, Whenever someone says something such as "As long as you know you're going to heaven" or "God's watching over us" or something along those lines, i just tend to nod and semi-agree with them as to not indicate that I lack these beliefs. I think that it's pointless to argue about such things because in the end, no one's going to change the way they think when it comes to religion. However, if a religious conversation is initiated when I'm not in the presence of my family, I don't mind sharing my perspective on things. I actually point some things out that aren't obviously conflicting with their religion, but just try to make them think a little bit before they preach.