While I'm waiting for Darkling to balance Custom Dropship Wars for me, I have started to get working on concepting for my next map, Demigod RPG. Here's a brief description of the map:

-The map is an RPG. There are seven humans and one computer-controlled "monster" player. Every player who survives till the end of a timer wins, but the real winner is whoever has the most XP at the end of the timer. Allies are worth a large amount of XP, and there is nothing in place to prevent you from BSing your allies.

-Each player is a demigod child of one of the Olympian gods of Greek mythology, or Hades. Children of Artemis or Hera are not playable, because Artemis is a virgin and Hera never had any affairs because she is the goddess of marriage.

-You have 8-18 spells in total, which are cast from a Lair/Hive. Lair spells are called "tier 1" and have a lower mana cost than Hive ("tier 2") spells.

Currently I have planned out all the spells for children of Ares, Hades, Posideon, Hephaestus, Hermes, Athena, Aphrodite, and Zeus. These are NOT final, obviously.

Here are the current spell sets:

















I am now totally stuck for ideas. Do any of you have any? Even a single spell is a huge help. I will also take suggestions on replacements for spells that you guys don't like.

Post has been edited 27 time(s), last time on Nov 30 2009, 2:18 am by TassadarZeratul.

a) Why does Zeus have "Vulcan's Forge: Creates a Nexus. Build Probe while standing next to the Nexus to restore energy to full.", and not Hephaestus?
b) you won't finish this

:0. You can't possibly know that FTS. But :0.
I like Poseidon's Spells . Hope you finish this. Orrr come out with a beta

@FTS: Vulcan (erm, Hephaestus >.> ) forged Zeus's thunderbolts. The idea is that Zeus's son is asking the real Hephaestus to give him some lightning. But I'll rename it to "Thunderforge".

Yeah, because people are going to memorize 20 spells for 7 different heroes. You need to come up with gameplay concepts: that's what makes a map good. Not tons of spells and hero backstories.

Meh, I already gave TZ some basic spell-designing lessons, but I dunno if he learned anything from them...

Anyway a couple things I forgot to mention:

1. Quality over Quantity - PLEASE. People are more satisfied having ~10 very useful spells that can combo on top of eachother than having 20 unrelated (or loosely related / hard to combo) spells.

2. Functionalism - Utilizing four spell-casting buildings is not only going to be annoying, and more work for you, but also isn't going to work well for players. You're going to have simplify it. If I made ~90 spells using only a gateway, you should definitely be able to cram 140 into Gateway + Robot lab at the most. Any more than 2 spell buildings is setting your players up for irritation.

3. (Just want to touch on this again) IT IS VERY IMPORTANT THAT YOU BUILD SPELLS ON TOP OF EACHOTHER. Various combo spells and combinations of certain effects - and a variety of them - is what would make each playable character unique. I already explained to you about how you're going on a "Different effects, same spell" for a lot of what you wrote up there. In addition, it might come to a point of "Different spells, same hero" as well. You really got to make your characters unique. [And yes, this includes additional attributes other than just types of spells.] You need to give players a reason to choose that specific character other than "he is OP" or "he has the most useful spells."

You already made a start at this while brainstorming you different uses for the Overlord and souls and that was good, but you need to think of something different FOR EACH CHARACTER.

4. Don't force it - Here's the thing. You are going to plan your spells, and some will be good and some will be good on paper, but suck in game. This happens to everyone (including myself - I had to re-design at least 1/10th of my spells for HS to make them more epic than originally planned) You really need to get your imagination in gear and test your characters out as you develop them. Think to yourself where each spell you planned out would be useful. What type of spells you really wish you had or would make the character feel more complete- and then add them. Also, really aim for a unique character first, without the spells. Once you have a character that plays differently than the other ones, the spells will knock on your door, and you will have to get off your ass and let them inside, but this small amount of work is worth it because spells that are naturally conceptualized are ALWAYS better than forced spells.

Another thing is that Don't force yourself to hit 20 spells for a character. If that character is only going to have 12, or 15, THAT IS OKAY. There is always room to go back and add more spells later if something hits you. Keep in mind that if you are really struggling to think of the last 4 spells, they are just going to be useless anyway. - Just leave them out.

Finally,


HS happens to disagree with you.

Actually i think faz might've been talking about hs...

I disagree with you. It would end up being "build zlot then DT then zlot then goon" and so on, which would suck dick. Also, see the map "Great Wizards", which had five shuttles for spellcasting but wasn't annoying.

BUT, I can change it to be 18 spells per character and use a Lair and Hive for casting. I think I'll do that. This also lets me get rid of some of the spells I don't like that much, like Zeus's Lord of the Air (turn into scout) spell. Plus, this way, I can change the number of spells per character if needed, because I can kill off the player's Defiler Mound/Ultralisk Cavern if they select a certain character.

EDIT: I've changed Posideon, Hephaestus, Zeus, Ares, and Hades spells to use the new system.

EDIT2: Started designing Hermes. Currently I've planned out seven Tier 1 spells for him. I have some vague ideas for more spells but I gtg. >.>

Post has been edited 4 time(s), last time on Nov 9 2009, 9:44 pm by TassadarZeratul.

Hello, I'm new here...

Yeah, so anyways - it often helps me to have an observer or some other harmless air unit act as a targeting beacon for spells. You can leash it to the player with this trigger:



Focus several square locations with different radii on the observer, and you have a workable system. Combined with a civ/beacon setup or a gateway unit build system, you can cast spells with more freedom than you could otherwise. It requires active participation on the part of the player, but that isn't usually a problem.

Then you can have fun things like this:



This is a simple 'blink' trigger. It prevents the player from blinking onto cliffs and things; that's what the Air Zone is for - a mid air and high air location covering the entire map.

One of my favorites is to use a rather large leash zone for a hero that can cast fireballs. Then you can create an observer or a cloaked Wraith on the hero and send it to the target zone, spawning science vessels or observers along the way to be killed. Then one big explosion at the end, and you have a pretty nifty Fireball, or Pyroblast, or what have you.

No doubt this has all been done before, but what the heck.

Finalized Hermes (for now) and added Athena.

@above: I'm actually going to have something like that for the Daughter of Aphrodite. She'll have the ability to summon Cupid and use him for targeting, much like the Observer in your example. Also, no need to write out triggers.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Nov 11 2009, 4:02 pm by TassadarZeratul.

Oh, sorry about that. I keep forgetting this isn't Starcraft.org.

Added Daughter of Aphrodite. I'm not that happy with the character but I'm posting her anyway for feedback.

1. Flight - Why replace unit? This limits the player and does not allow them to even attack? There are two routes you can go with this:

I - Totally new spell set while OBSERVER form. This will enhance gameplay and give the players a reason to turn into OBSERVER during combat. This also allows for many combos between OBSERVER spells and the regular spell set.

II - No spell replacement, but control of an OBSERVER. This will enable you to have abilities that enhance movement or range for the player. Flight spell is replaced while OBSERVER is out. This can be replaced with any type of spell that develops the character into however you want. You can also get extra fancy and have spells that activate upon death of the OBSERVER, or passive spells that go into effect while the observer is nearby the hero (besides the obvious detection).

2. The dark templar is ALREADY CLOAKED. Making players pay $$ each time they want to take advantage of the cloak is almost as bad as finding a way to make them pay minerals for EACH time they use stim. This is a natural unit aspect that should be used to make the character unique, not be made into a spell.

3. Thievery is decent, but it would be better as a passive that gives you % chance to jack opponents wallet when a kill is made.

4. This is a nice Idea, but it does not constitute a spell by any means. This should be a passive aspect of the character that doesn't cost MP to use like a spell does.

Other Note: You don't have any form of damage in tier 1? This will make the character extremely boring to play as during the first part of the game.

1. Bonus damage is always good, but you're missing a method to keep the enemy in place when the assassination takes place.

2. I guess this spell is pretty good, the only thing is that you have potential to make a 2-parted spell where he has one spell while on roads, and a different one when off of roads. Having the spell useless off of roads is going to be annoying to any player.

3. >< Put this shit in tier 1. Also, if you're going to have message carriers you better make them able to pick up weapons to help the main character fight with.

4. A car-type thing would be sweet for the character, rather than have it unit replacement, do a system like I did for MM in HS (in your case the hero would be able to enter and exit the car by some means). He would also have spells available to him while in the car.

Additional notes: Overall, the development is very weak. It lacks any solid way for the character to grow stronger, and most of your spells should be made passive and replaced by actual... spells. Messaging / Speed / Flight / Stealth has a TON of room for development, you are disappointing me with what you have so far.


1. Don't use a mine, use a burrowed unit owned by player 9 or something. Call it more like a trap. Move this up in the tier list and make it so that you lose control of your character (and she is invincible) and you gain control of the one hit and all of it's spells while the affliction lasts.

2. Overused, but it works. Make sure you have another spell that plays off the # of monsters you have under your control to either attack enemies / or buff your character.

3. Attraction is always a good spell, but this character doesn't have anything that would benefit an attraction taking place. The enemy is right next to you now, and you can't do anything about it because the character lacks any attack spells. The only thing this would be useful for is trying to force enemies to step on the love trap thingy.

4. 60 seconds is too long. This will totally ruin the fun of any player trying to go against venus. This should be nerfed, and you need to think of some more aggressive spells so that the character doesn't turn into "I can mess with people, but i definitely can't hurt them" - which can be fun, but it would never work in terms of making a complete character capable of taking on a variety of tasks.

Other notes: Needs more diversity, not just passive stuff.

1. Love arrow is good.

2. SCV is a bad unit to use here. You need something that is more mobile, and can be told to hold position. Since you want it to casts the same spells as venus, give venus some spells that would actually be cool to double cast. For example: Double casting lovesickness as you have it would.... DO THE SAME EXACT THING. It's obvious you didn't think this out much.

3. Should be a passive bonus that the player can learn, and no it doesn't constitute a spell.

4. Put it in tier one. You need to have some cooler stuff to actually put it in a second tier.

Other notes: Fucking with other player's units is an area that you told me you had a lot of ideas in. Refer to that spells PM i sent you sometime last week to take some of those ideas and shift them into this character. If you are going to have a character who is weak as shit offensively, then there is HUGE compensation needed in terms of versatility of support / passive spells.

There, I hope you can improve your character design by taking my constructive criticism seriously. Good luck to you TZ.

How about giving the player an Observer and the ability to teleport to it by casting the spell again?

How about I change him into an Infested Duran and give him the ability to turn into a cloaked ling instead? The ling would have pathetic stats.

Disagree. Hermes shouldn't be killing lots of enemies. Combat is not the only way to win this game: I'm not sure if I mentioned this, but you can trade victory points, minerals, XP, items, etc. (Victory points = whoever has the most of them when the game ends wins.) I imagined Hermes as primarily buying victory points with stolen money/XP gained by delivering messages, not killing for them. Unless he wants to be an assassin.

K.

Good point. I'll change Messenger to a passive ability like you suggested, and give him the ability to give weapons to his Message Carriers.

You can always use Message Carrier micro to slow down your foes. Jk, you have a good point. But, with the new teleportation spell, this should be fixed.

I'll change it to creating a piece of road if you're not on the road. (Roads are represented by Beacons.)

Why would I put it in Tier 1? It can get you a shitton of minerals.

Also, I'm changing it so ONLY Message Carriers can carry messages, for technical reasons.

How is that any different than what I have already? You can exit the car by planting a spider mine, and of course you can cast spells in the car.

I think I've fixed most of this. But he always had a way to get stronger: Namely, keeping a large number of Message Carriers constantly on the move.

Awesome idea, DONE MOFO.

I'll try to think of something.

Well, that, or bringing them into range of Infatuation or getting them away from Cupid. Or screwing with their micro. Or getting them away from your allies.

Most characters aren't supposed to be able to go it alone. You're supposed to team up. Although you're probably right about the 60 seconds being too long.

Also, it's APHRODITE. Not Venus. Greek gods > Roman gods.

Explain this.

OSHI-

Uhm.

Crap.

Will think about this.

Disagree.

No. There's interface reasons why it's in Tier 2.

I take all suggestions seriously.

EDIT: Also, what do you think of Daughter of Athena? You didn't have any comments for her.

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Nov 12 2009, 4:19 am by TassadarZeratul.

I just read:

Using EUDs? Or how the heck did you do this?

Unit replacement to hero Ultralisk with 100 HP. When it dies, turn back into regular Ultralisk.

Erm, aren't the people you listed son of x ... aren't many of them they already the son/daughter of Zeus? Therefore, the Son of x would be bascially the level of the Son of the Son of Zeus ....

That's not right!!! XD

Maybe u should do the Grandson of Zeus lol..

U can probably include smth with Chronus's descendents ... with Arcane/Unknown powers and maybe the power to manipulate time..

EDIT: Read son of Zeus and Son of Poseidon...
I'd like to know how Poseidon's son's spells would work...
Also, wouldn't the son of Zeus be a lil weak in the beginning without any powerful spells?

/facedesk

It wasn't stated that clearly, though...

Note to Tass:
Before you start reading, please note that I am being critical based on things I don't know. I have to assume the worst. I hope you understand.

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Ok, I went through them all and picked out the ones that I had notes on. I quoted those and left out all the ones that I didn't have any problems with or questions about.

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Thunderforge and Stormcharge - How often do you suppose this will be used? If you can just Stormcharge to restore your energy to full, what's the point of the Thunderforge? There are a lot of unknowns here.

• Is the Thunderforge permanent? If not, when does it disappear?
  
• Can the Thunderforge be destroyed by enemies?
  
• How much does the probe cost, and how expensive is it (when compared to your cash inflow)?
  
• Does Thunderforge cost more mana (or whatever) to cast than Stormcharge?
  
• How many Thunderforges can you have at once?
  

Depending on these unknowns, players may be unwilling to go all the way back to the Thunderforge to restore their energy.

Restore Gremlins and Chain Destruction - How many of these can the player have at once? If there is no limit, the player may simply horde these and surround enemy players with them. In the case of the Effigies, that may be overpowered - simply chain destructing them all would likely kill or severely wound enemy players. Then again, I'm assuming that the Effigies deal damage when they explode. That's a reasonable assumption, given that Chain Destruction would be useless otherwise.

Battle Meditation - Based on testing, how often will players want to use this? Is it too risky in most situations? Is the damage worth the risk? Can enemy players tell when you are casting it? If not, is it OP based on the surprise factor of it?

Ultrabolt - Do you take damage from it? If so, make sure it doesn't spawn on top of your character.

Thunder Elemental - Can your hero be attacked while the Archon is out? If so, a possible exploit would be to wait until the Son of Zeus uses this and then ignore the Archon while focusing on the hero. Is the Archon powerful enough to prevent this exploit from working? Can the hero attack back while in the trance? Again, this spell is dependent on a lot of unknowns.

Pillar of Light - How many of these can the Son of Zeus command at once? Can they be destroyed? If there is no limit, or if they cannot be destroyed, it's overpowered. The hero can simply stockpile a ton of them in any given location and become (technically) invincible. Or the hero gets a permanent boost that no one can match or do anything to reduce.

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Wall of Water - Just out of curiosity, how the heck did you manage a circle? Complex grids?

Downpour - May be overpowered depending on how much mana it costs and how long it lasts. Should have a long cooldown in any case.

Summon Boat and Create Water - Ok, what are you doing for 'water'? I just have to ask. I can't really be critical of these spells until I know what the heck it is, how long it lasts, what effects it has on other players, etc.

Teachings of the Water - Might be OP. How much does it cost in relation to total mana pool? How much experience does it give in relation to how much the game requires before you level up? Will the player ever be left alone to cast this over and over again, similar to the Pillar of Light for Sons of Zeus?

Metaphysical Canal - Once again, I can't make any real judgment until I know what water is, but you'd better be careful of where the Observer can go.

Island Sea - Assuming you've answered my questions about water, I may or may not need to ask: how did you manage THIS?

Aquatic Healing - Might be OP, again based on unknowns. Keep in mind that if players can exploit something, they will.

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First of all, I love the way you did this character. Probably gonna be my personal favorite when the map is finished.

Intimidating Stance - Possibly overpowered. If used against a heavily mana-dependant character, like the Son of Zeus, I would set a limit on how low it can lower the mana of the opponent. But if that's too much triggering, just balance it as well as possible.

Summoning Stance - Again, possibly overpowered. Firebats can attack rather fast, and if you have stimpacks enabled - well...

Manifestation of Rage - Is there a limit to how many Lurkers can be summoned at once? If not, the Son of Ares may simply stack Lurkers underneath himself and never move. That has downsides and benefits, but besides just turtling with Lurkers, the Son of Ares may lure opponents toward his stack of Lurkers. One collective shot, and the enemy goes down.

Firesprint - Wait, you can do that? Does the player have command of the Scarab? What does this do for you? Is it simply like the SC2 Zealot's Charge ability?

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Shadowporter - Where does the Nydus Canal go? Are you left to choose where? If so, I assume it must be targeted near a Monster Gate or Underworld Rift.

Underworld Rift and Soul Ferry - Bah, no specifics again. How many soul ferries can you have? How much experience? Yeah, lots of unknowns again. But you have to consider that it may be overpowered. I just keep thinking, "I don't have to ask these questions, he isn't that stupid." But I keep replying to myself, "You don't know that."

Oh, and can the Underworld Rift/Soul Ferry be destroyed? Does it count the deaths of the souls inside the soul ferry if it is destroyed? It would kinda suck to kill a Soul Ferry with eighty three souls in it and get no more experience than if you killed an empty soul ferry.

Soul Fusion - How does this work? On which DT will it summon the Soul Ferry? If it is uncertain, players will be less likely to use this ability.

Summon Fury and Soul Rift - Yay! Finally some specifics! ...and then an unknown. How many Souls can the SoH have attacking for them at once? If the number is limitless... yeah. Again, it could be overpowered.

Freedom from Death - Father Hades is kind, isn't he?

Monster Gate - Bah, again, unknowns. How many hydralisks maximum? Could you just horde them and then swarm an opponent? Can Monster Gates be destroyed?

Soul Binding - Is this a one-time cast that affects DTs near you? If not, how long does the effect last? Might be considered OP - RAWR I HAZ FIFTY BRAZILLION DARK TEMPLARZ! PHEAR ME!

Hellfire - How did you manage this?

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It's getting kind of late. I'll do the last four tomorrow morning... or sometime.

Picking up where I left off...


Build Gold Mine - Make sure you have a limit on these...

Healing Potion - These won't be very useful. When enemies (human players) see that you have one, there'll be a rush to kill it before you can build a pylon.

Forge Celestial Blade and Forge Divine Shield and Forge Holy Helm and Forge Heavenly Armor - These should have a limit, too. Yeah, I'm assuming the worst again. Sorry.

How the heck did you do the Heavenly Armor thing?

Finally - It might be wise to give the Son of Hephaestus more abilities. As it is, he has no offensive abilities and wouldn't be much fun to play if you had no allies.


Teleportation - Better have a leash on the Observer. It would kinda suck for other players if you could place a teleport beacon anywhere. Also, make sure it can't get into spellcasting and hero selection zones... but you already knew that...

Thievery - Make sure this scales as the game progresses.

Armed Messengers - Why is this in the Tier 1 category while Message Carrier is in Tier 2? I would assume you don't get the tier 2 spells until you progress a certain distance into the game, so why put this spell before the one it works on? Unless you start with both tiers of spells at your command.

Road Warrior - Road? Um... can you please explain further?


Build Supercomputer - Typo?

Reality Hacker - Yay! Specifics! ^_^ ...sorry, it's just been a while since you stated the limits on things.

Tier 1 Hacks - I assume the science vessels can be killed? Also, hacking is a modern idea. Why include it in a mythology game? And do the Monitor Hack turrets last forever? Can they be killed? How many can you have at once?

Create Hypercomputer - GAH! Set limits pl0x.

Tier 2 Hacks - Defense Hack - I assume it creates a pylon too? Or are you using the pylonless building glitch? Bombardment Hack - Finally, a damage spell. Up to this point, though, it seems the Medic has to blind enemies to death.


Love Trap - How long is 'temporarily?'

Infatuation - Yeah. How long is it, exactly?

Lovesickness - Nice use of DCs. Anyways, this could be seriously punishing. If the Daughter of Aphrodite can stack this on someone, it can disable them for a nastily long period of time. You might want to cut it back to 5sec per application. Of course, testing can determine whether you should or not.

Summon Cupid - Can the Wraith attack? Can it cloak?

Love Arrow - Typo. Should be 'from your unit to the wraith.' Also, what are you using as a stun mechanic?

Attract - For how long?

Well, in closing, I have to say - you're doing great so far. Most of what I commented on was lack of information. I have no doubt that 90% of the things I complained about are already corrected, but you asked me to look it over, and I have to assume the worst.

I would suggest that, if you're trying to find more ideas, look through a Greek Mythology book. Some of the Titans might fit into your RPG.