I like that tutorial idea. Don't make it mandatory, though.


Votes are easy.

Doh... I meant here on SEN. I wanna make a poll for people's opinion on like future balance changes or new features. Or we can just try to discuss without polls, whatever.

well if its interactive, it forces those nublets to actually focus on the tutorial so i like the idea

You could do what I did with AG and host your own forum. Or a wiki w/ talk pages, which would probably work better.

Single threads suck for project management.

Edit: Balance and feature discussions are part of project management, by the way.

@darksnow: Yes. Actually I changed my mind and let you pick a ship just because the tutorial shows you inside your ship, but basically it forces you to say 'Help on' or "skip help' as soon as you pick a ship.

@Tux: Thanks, I'm not hardcore enough to run my own forum though.

1.43 is out everyone! Enjoyyyy!

Changes Listed Below
Balance:
-Star Brigantine +1 Armor
-Comet Galleon +1 Armor, +2 Anti Air Damage
-Colony Invader +1 Armor
Bugs:
-A bomb bug existed only when you had 14+ Bomb Bays.
Features:
-A new tutorial which forces the player's attention more aggressively.
-A solo experiment mode, where if you are the only player at the start of the game you get infinite minerals and lives.
-The ship equipment size is now in the unit's name. The number shown is the number of terrain tile rows the ship provides.
-Bombs, Grunts, Troops, and Snipers are now spawned through a unit buffer and moved. There should be no more 'Unit Unplaceable'.
-Many locations are now available for future development.

EDIT: noo theres a few bugs with the new stuff. Keep playing 1.42 for now.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Aug 10 2009, 3:50 am by Tank_7.

1.44 Out

My apologies, I was excited and didnt test enough. There was a bug involving Size 5 ships for Player 2 3 4 and 5 only.
There was also a P23456 bug involving Troops. It's all fixed now though.

Hey, Tank! An idea for the tutorial might be to make it mandatory for the new players only. Skipping the tutorial at start could be done in an obscure way for new players. Skipping is explained in the very end of the tutorial. For example, you just don't center view on the creep colony at start. If it is not morphed for say 8 seconds the tutorial starts automatically. Morphing it during the tutorial will skip it, but this is not explained anywhere till the end.

oh and just a question, i was playing but somehow i couldn't kill anything in the other person's base

Darksnow, you have to kill the shield generator (Protoss Shield Battery) first.

yea i did, but it still says cannot target RAWR

there is a cooldown on shield generators they don't kick in until they are activated and time period elapse (30 secs maybe) and they dont deactivate until they are destroyed and that same time periord elapses.

question about new buffers are they alloud to say keep a bomb from appearing until you are over ground or does it just die if it cannot be moved to ground much like the unplaceable did? If it is the former you will need to cap how many you can pile up in this buffer or people can just stack bombs in the buffer. I would sujjest one if there is a buffer and if more appear kill them.


also simple little bug the dropship when i died unloaded some atcual units they didn't just pick up again. This can shuffle the order of them. made my game very unpleasant as i was constantly clicking the wrong spots lol.

also for clean up you can still purchase ups for the zerg ground even though they aren't actually used for anything.
*both of these are from your previous version*

Boom.

Free hosting, version control, wiki, et al.

@Wormer: Well, I made the Skip option not obscure, but you actually "must" skip before playing now, so that way a player cannot try to play and be unaware that there is a help atleast.

@darksnow: The base shield generators take time to update as they are built and destroyed. Namely, a spawn cycle must occur. It hasn't been a major issue but I guess I should probably look into making a seperate, faster timer for the base shield generators for future versions.

I wanted to throw out an idea I had to you guys.
I'm considering putting in the Protoss Robotics Facility as another buildable base structure. It would have a name like "Jump Gate" or "Warp Station". Your team would have a maximum of say... 16 of them. When you fly your ship over one you gain control of it, unless an ally is already using it.
Building a shuttle (free & fast) would cycle your destination facility with a mini map ping shown.
Building a reaver (Not free, maybe not fast either) would warp you to your selected destination facility.

Now, there are some obvious objections to this:
-It would become very easy to defend a forward base
-It would potentially be brutal with PS'es and perhaps other large ships
-It would negate small ship's speed advantage once a network of these warp facilities was made

I believe all of these issues can be solved with an apporpriate cost for not just building the facility, but for using it.
I'm thinking only 16 or 24 minerals to build one, but 8 minerals cost per reaver. It's much cheaper to just fly there, but it can be appropriate in time-critical situations which allow you to save an ally, finish a retreating enemy, save a base, or win a race to a mineral patch where you got vision long enough to know it's a good one like 24 or 32 in it. Also it would be possible to warp after getting stasised if you were right over the facility. There may be other objectives I haven't thought of where you would want to warp.

I'm also thinking of putting in some more "flash", especially a unique effect such as hallucination deaths when a stasis is being activated, during the 12 hyper delay before the arbiter is made. This would help people use the upgraded shield to counter the upgraded engine disruptor. As it is right now I watch the enemy player's factory change color on the minimap when vision is given by proximity detection.

BWAHAHAHAHA.. As I said, I wrote a HUGE review.. and I would not encourage anyone BUT ws_tank to read it.. as it's freaking long.. Here it is!

Apparently you haven't experienced the joy that is Valk + Devourer hunting packs.

This is one of the few maps that actually seems to make the acid spores a viable part of gameplay. I'd considered adding a Devourer bit in AG, but I realized unit HP and armor and was typically too high to make that useful.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Aug 10 2009, 6:28 pm by Tuxedo-Templar. Reason: Meant to say *hp and armor. :P

@UnholyUrine:


You are right arbiter stasis is way too long. The upgraded shield is intended to be the counter to the arbiter. I am considering making the arbiter cast give a visual warning to make it easier to use the shield as intended. I do agree Stasis is too long If I were to make the map from scratch I'd do custom spell like you have described.


Well, I chose to make Valk a ship. When I started the map I did consider having it or corsair be a weapon item.


Multiple shield generators do work. They activate at a rate of 1 per 10 seconds. So you can matrix yourself, and do it again 10 seconds later. You could also matrix an ally yourself. For the upgraded invincibility shield there's no issue. It's one after the other. The cooldown is always 35 seconds AFTER the last shield has gone off, to prevent perma-shield with 3 or 4 generators.


Vision is given when an enemy is within about the range of approxametly normal unit vision. You can see a cloaked wraith if it's close enough. Cloak is just for hiding yourself on the minimap when moving to and from bases or minerals. Likewise this prevents the arbiter from making you invisible to your enemies for the time you have it in close combat.


I disagree. Ive had good games, one time I saved a replay of a 100 minute 3v3. Map control was important, both sides made many outposts.
Unfortunately good games are super rare, just like in Astrogears.


Saying the Scourges and Devourers currently do the same thing honestly offends me.
The acid spores of Devourers slow down enemy ship's default attacks and increase the effectiveness of attacks made against them, not just from your ship, but from NPC's too.

There is one particularly deadly combination, Stasis, Devourers, and Troops Unloaded Underneath. The troops' damage is multiplied by Devourers by leaps and bounds. Devourers are also nice for the many rapid hits of Carriers and Valkyries.

Scouts can also use Devourers. Scouts are kind of "versatile" in that their double missile air attack does work with Devourers somewhat, they can hit ground well, they have shields, respectable speed, and respectable fuel efficiency. They are jack-of-all- trades ships.

Scourges on the other hand provide superior damage output per second. One scourge is nice for eradicating annoying air NPC's if you're a Guardian, Overlord, or Infested CC.

Scourges also differ from Devourers in being able to provide surprise. Scourges can be controlled to fly some distance, so you can help an ally out of sight. Since scourges are "one big hit, not as often", this helps the surprise factor. A large salvo can be launched from beyond visual range into a "1v1" to tip the battle in your ally's favor.

ws-Tank_7, I have no thoughts about that teleportation thing.

+1 But ships you described seem not very specialized to me. Specialization should consider everything: speed, damage, rate of fire, hp, armor, hangar volume, fuel consumption rate, max number of crew on board and probably something else. Try something less trivial and make it as specialized as you can. Try to balance units themselves first. Consider mutalisk's small size and battle cruiser's normal attack type (as far as I remember all other air units have large size and explisove attacks). Try very low hp + very high armor (weak against rapid high damage attacks, strong against slow attacks no matter what damage), low hp + very high shields (weak against emp, strong against low damage attacks) and so on. Make interceptors destroyable with very low hp + very high armor + relatively long building time (weak against rapid corsair attacks), but the carrier itself relatively high hp and armor so corsair useless against carrier itself but can neutralize interceptors. Slow high damage attacks useless against zerg unit with regeneration. Make a relatively fast unit with no attack but huge hangar... and so on...

Ah well, this is only theory, because the map is already done and you're not going to change that much (and honestly probably that is not required).

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Aug 10 2009, 7:14 pm by Wormer.

From the looks of it, you're not gonna change too much, but that's okay, because it is your game.

You've already told me about the devourer having the acid spores and all that, but to steal a term from Wormer, it is often trivial. Obviously it is very dangerous when put under the right circumstance, like you're a valk, you got troops, and you managed to get 3-4 spores on an enemy ship which is a BC... But under many circumstance, there is almost NO difference. The fact that you're really limited to terran buildings is more important than nitpicking on the effects of devourers versus scourges, which is why I suggested a bigger difference between their roles.

Also, this:
... is when you should look and say "Then my game IS bad and need changes"... :\... If good games are "super rare".. then it isn't really a good game then is it... :\ .. Not to offend you, but it's a big mistake to think that "as long as I, the creator, can have good games with it, then everyone can".

I also agree with wormer (my examples are bad, cause I was just brainstorming.)

@Wormer: Early in the map development I was contemplating those kinds of "radical" ship stats but I decided against it because the armor would either have to be extremely high to negate scourges, and it might be overpowered against photon cannons. I didn't want a ship that gets raped "only" by Valk or mass ground troops. There are tendencies, strengths and weaknesses, but they are not so radical.

@UnholyUrine: If there's one thing I'm sure of it's that Devourers and Scourges are quite different. Come on even Tux is with me on this one.

Here's how they differ:
-Cost
-Effective Range (Scourges can fly to the target for a while, Devourers must be fairly close to shoot)
-Overall Damage Per Second (DPS)
-Rapid weak fire vs. Slow heavy hitting fire (The potential for surprise)
-One has a side-effect on all ships except the Planet Smasher

Even though I'm the creator I can almost never get a good game as people leave/suck just like in AG.
I've had a few good games but only when it was people who knew how to play. And hundreds of noob games that sucked.

Post has been edited 4 time(s), last time on Aug 10 2009, 11:37 pm by Tank_7.

honestly unholy i'm disapointed. There are more differences than you give credit and i can tell you haven't played enough to see them. I have played about 15 games now and even though i get my ass whooped sometimes i have seen what you fail to see.

Lets start with
The ships are so wide in variety and do serve quite a few roles. First off you have many different kinds of damage from the different units. There are also some units with nice armor (shields). There are so many different ship sizes.

The two scouts one has speed the other has dmg. Dmg is important depending on your systems. If you are trying to destroy ground things and only have air attack systems It is helpful to have more dmg as things go down much quicker.

The two bcs one has yamato which can be used for a very nice hit when needed to take down shield batteries as they usually take a while. The overlord and guardian are two of may favorites.

The overlord is fast and makes it great for massive bombing runs while the guardian can obliterate ground defenses without even getting near and can use his attacks for air.


not being able to build forges anywhere makes it considerably harder to plan arround your opponents moves. Not to mention if you do end up in a very close battle and escape only to find out your fuel is extremly low you cannot just fly somewhere near and build a forge for refueling. This means you must rely solely on your allies and there gas transfer which can take ages in itself.

while this is generally true in the begining since minerals spawn with massive numbers usually this disipates later game. In the beggining you still sometimes run into battles where one side usually loses out if the opposing team guesses correctly and coordinates well with their teamates.

In later stages of the game once everyone started to build bases this combined with use of team's ships can very effectively control the map. One thing i have seen alot is on one of the big islands one team will build a gateway and just let their men pile up and effectively cut off opponents from mining either mineral spot on that island.

Also if a team can manage to use one guy to cut off the other team from minerals on one side of the map the second/third guy can go and both fight and mine the other side of the map further cutting the minerals the other team has.

first off the plasma cannons have no addon at all. This means they cannot upgrade their cooldown speed like the Torpedos and thus don't have the same upgrade system.

As for other differences read above posts. There are tons of them and the main one in my mind is huge instant dmg vs dmg over time with potential increase to dmg. I've come to only use plasma cannons when i have a ship that benefits from them (sair, valk, carrier) or when i have a fast team that can help me kill them after i load them up with acid spores.

This i'm somewhat torn between. This would make more of a distiction between certain ships but not that much between shields. The dmatrix is useful but only before ships are powered up. *Personally i would rather see another function have the upgrade ability vs this(I will talk more about this at the end).*

back on topic though i like the current system of where shields make you invulnerable for a timeperiod. If we add this in it may last beyond that timeperiod or it may end relatively fast.

Outside of general starcraft I think stasis lasts way too long for just about anything you are doing. It just isn't the best spell because it was designed for a specific gameplay. Now if the time period could be modded then we wouldn't have these problems. I think with the pre-effect added to the spell it would function better.

It is a pain for newbs when they are watching and boom all the sudden they get hit even though they casted shields. I myself have got caught a few times as well but imo if i never get caught what the hell is the point of this? I hope it will still be somewhat effective after the pre-effects are added.

There are a few ways to win and you will see this the more you play but spawning helps a bunch. It can also be nulified with a good defender. Speaking of this There is a cannon in each base that is just way 2 far out of the way to do anything. Unless someone creates an airspawn it never fires. I think a little base reorganization would be nice. I agree about the terrain it could use some work and i would like to see a bit more variety in the islands.

BTW what is the point of a 4square buildable area on some of the smaller islands? Seriously you cant put a cannon there so why would you want a pylon there?

This is your best point imo. Honestly I feel that the gas command in the Dropship is a waste of a function and i would like to see another attack added to help bolster the point of devours. At the moment devours only help certain ships and i would like it to help otherships as well. Another attack maybe a missle attack of some kind or a ground/air strike attack would be cool.

The problem is constructing an effective refuel option. flying over the forge and being auto refueled imo would suck as this might end up wasting extra cash by refueling more than you need just to make sure you reach your fuel cap. 4900 cap of 5000 would waste 900 fuel and thus a mineral. Slowing down refueling time to compensate for this would suck also.

The consumption rate is already somewhat in effect but i think this would be fun to play arround with also as this would further increase deversity in the ships. Maybe we can get some more/less space designed ships from this would be fun to play with.



***edit*** wow after all this i forgot to address the question of the cycling/warping.
First a few questions.
How will the reaver feature function to let you choose where to go?
For Cycling will this cycle by order built or by placement on map?

This is obviously going to screw with a few elements. It will allow very slow decked out ships to take full advantage of both mining, pking, and base killing. It will also mess with gas as well. It will cost a PlanetSiege 3minerals (3k gas) to get to the other side of the map and with the reaver warp it will cost 8 minerals. This seems like a very unfair trade imo. Not to mention this could give bombing a whole new approach.

Also thinking about the refueling idea change. This would take the only 3space building that allows units to built and remove it from the possible easy solution to refueling (giving it to players and allow them to purchase refueling in building units. Maybe even a mass buying fuel 5k= 5mins or 1k= 1mineral).

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Aug 11 2009, 2:32 am by killer_sss.