[img]http://www.panschk.de/mappage/Waiting%20to%20Panic%201.2.jpg[/img] Green lines mark where ramps are, in case it's difficult to see. [img]http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/2029/waitingtopanic2rampsmb6.jpg[/img] [url=http://www.panschk.de/mappage/(2)Waiting%20to%20Panic1.2(n).scm]Download[/url] [quote]This is IMO the best map I've ever made, at least concept wise (decoration may need a face lift). Impassible doodads behind minerals fix pathing (thanks largely to StarParty for telling me this, although this concept is mine so don't give him too much credit ;)) Remember that though the pathing is fixed, don't be stupid and click the very corner of the map and tell me the pathing is broken. You still need to click in their base to go to their base. AFAIK you cannot jump the minerals (impassible doodads underneath). Used lancets "Charches" idea. This should allow for some exciting things to happen in the middle ;) Remember that only ultralisks cannot pass under the arches. Gameplay is intended to be unique, fast paced, with no non-sense-macro-styles. All bases are unsafe, all races should require early units for pressure and defence. Scouting will be absolutely pivotal.[/quote] I expect this map to be imbalanced. I don't expect anyone to figure why if it never becomes popular. This map is a theory crafter's dream, and I acknowledge I'm going to receive a lot of comments telling me how impossible it is for one race or another in one match up or another (but I still don't like it ^^). If you do play it, replays may be uploaded [url=http://www.panschk.de/mappage/repupload.php?mapid=2559]here[/url] PS: If you're going to post "6 pool sunken rush", don't bother. I've heard it 50 times already. I knew it was a possibility while I was making the map. Seriously, that's not helpful to me. I can stop a sunken rush on this map, and if you don't think I could stop a 6 pool, you should just play me on it and we'll see :)

Green lines mark where ramps are, in case it's difficult to see.

Download

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This is IMO the best map I've ever made, at least concept wise (decoration may need a face lift).

Impassible doodads behind minerals fix pathing (thanks largely to StarParty for telling me this, although this concept is mine so don't give him too much credit ) Remember that though the pathing is fixed, don't be stupid and click the very corner of the map and tell me the pathing is broken. You still need to click in their base to go to their base. AFAIK you cannot jump the minerals (impassible doodads underneath).

Used lancets "Charches" idea. This should allow for some exciting things to happen in the middle Remember that only ultralisks cannot pass under the arches.

Gameplay is intended to be unique, fast paced, with no non-sense-macro-styles. All bases are unsafe, all races should require early units for pressure and defence. Scouting will be absolutely pivotal.

I expect this map to be imbalanced. I don't expect anyone to figure why if it never becomes popular. This map is a theory crafter's dream, and I acknowledge I'm going to receive a lot of comments telling me how impossible it is for one race or another in one match up or another (but I still don't like it ).

If you do play it, replays may be uploaded here

PS: If you're going to post "6 pool sunken rush", don't bother. I've heard it 50 times already. I knew it was a possibility while I was making the map. Seriously, that's not helpful to me. I can stop a sunken rush on this map, and if you don't think I could stop a 6 pool, you should just play me on it and we'll see

I love you. And your map. And if you made food, I'd love it too. But you probably don't, at least I dont receive any. Your best in my opinion as well.

I love you.

And your map.

And if you made food, I'd love it too.

But you probably don't, at least I dont receive any.

Your best in my opinion as well.

[QUOTE]how much should a player conform to a map? A map should allow a player to pull off almost any logical build, tactics in the map's genre, be it low-high money maps. IE. saying that zerg should just mass zerglings in a map that is short of geysers is not a legit excuse.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE] Maps designed for 1 base builds = failed because Protoss and Zerg use FE almost all the time now. You're MASSIVELY limiting player options and instead of "encouraging" 1 base builds, you're FORCING them to. Big difference. Bad map.[/QUOTE] To say the least.

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how much should a player conform to a map? A map should allow a player to pull off almost any logical build, tactics in the map's genre, be it low-high money maps.

IE. saying that zerg should just mass zerglings in a map that is short of geysers is not a legit excuse.

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Maps designed for 1 base builds = failed because Protoss and Zerg use FE almost all the time now. You're MASSIVELY limiting player options and instead of "encouraging" 1 base builds, you're FORCING them to.

Big difference. Bad map.

To say the least.

Seeing as how Proto's 2nd quote there is mine, I'm out of stuff to say. :P

Seeing as how Proto's 2nd quote there is mine, I'm out of stuff to say.

What did you hope to achieve by quoting yourselves from one forum to another? The only reason I can think of is that you wanted if influence other people who see my map's opinions. There's a very good word for people who do things like this :) PS: In case you're wondering, SENers, I disagree with both of them. I've refuted them with clear and precise examples, but since neither of them play StarCraft, the examples confused them and so they simply ignored them. And if you think 'forcing' players to one base limits strategies, how about maps like Arcadia that force players to double expand and submit to macro strategies (of which there are very few compared to one base strats), where the action doesn't even start until 10 minutes into the game cause there's this whole stupid build up phase. Look at the latest promaps. They're very evidently moving away from macro and trying to encourage early game, unique, action. My map is following the logical conclusion of this path. I won't claim my map is perfectly balanced. Hell, I won't even claim it's a little balanced. What I do claim, is that no one can know who it is unbalanced for without playing the map and discovering the specific timings of builds and how they interact with each other. Everything they say is [b]theory[/b]. Theories are not facts. And their theories especially, are not facts because they don't have any sort of argument to back them up. Uhm... this turned out to be a lot longer than I thought.

What did you hope to achieve by quoting yourselves from one forum to another? The only reason I can think of is that you wanted if influence other people who see my map's opinions. There's a very good word for people who do things like this

PS: In case you're wondering, SENers, I disagree with both of them. I've refuted them with clear and precise examples, but since neither of them play StarCraft, the examples confused them and so they simply ignored them. And if you think 'forcing' players to one base limits strategies, how about maps like Arcadia that force players to double expand and submit to macro strategies (of which there are very few compared to one base strats), where the action doesn't even start until 10 minutes into the game cause there's this whole stupid build up phase. Look at the latest promaps. They're very evidently moving away from macro and trying to encourage early game, unique, action. My map is following the logical conclusion of this path. I won't claim my map is perfectly balanced. Hell, I won't even claim it's a little balanced. What I do claim, is that no one can know who it is unbalanced for without playing the map and discovering the specific timings of builds and how they interact with each other. Everything they say is theory. Theories are not facts. And their theories especially, are not facts because they don't have any sort of argument to back them up. Uhm... this turned out to be a lot longer than I thought.

Absolutely horrid. Could you try not making an intentionally imbalanced map? fun starcraft is gamers playing a map, not a map playing the gamers.

Absolutely horrid. Could you try not making an intentionally imbalanced map?

fun starcraft is gamers playing a map, not a map playing the gamers.

Every map in StarCraft ever made forces you to adapt to it for optimal performance. Besides, who do you think it's imbalanced for antisleep? Then you can be that race, and I'll play you on this map (as soon as mushu sends me the working copy I played with him earlier, since I accidentally saved a non-working copy over it TT)

Every map in StarCraft ever made forces you to adapt to it for optimal performance. Besides, who do you think it's imbalanced for antisleep? Then you can be that race, and I'll play you on this map (as soon as mushu sends me the working copy I played with him earlier, since I accidentally saved a non-working copy over it TT)

[quote=Chef]What did you hope to achieve by quoting yourselves from one forum to another? The only reason I can think of is that you wanted if influence other people who see my map's opinions. There's a very good word for people who do things like this :)[/quote]Trolls like yourself? Let's not get started about your unjustified attitude against Warboards from the very start. [quote]In case you're wondering, SENers, I disagree with both of them. I've refuted them with clear and precise examples, but since neither of them play StarCraft, the examples confused them and so they simply ignored them.[/quote]The reason we don't listen to you is because you make shit up. Both myself and Proto have played SC and still do (though I have been busy with school the last month), yet you suddenly come up with this fabrication to improve your reputation, which seems very important to you. [quote]And if you think 'forcing' players to one base limits strategies, how about maps like Arcadia that force players to double expand and submit to macro strategies (of which there are very few compared to one base strats), where the action doesn't even start until 10 minutes into the game cause there's this whole stupid build up phase.[/quote]Just so you know, WGT only picks the maps they do because they were made by Korea's popular mappers, not because they really are the best maps out there. Making an imbalanced map and refusing to correct the problems because some WGT map (in your opinion, not mine) follows the same path as this map is not a good enough reason. A mapper should strive to improve, not disdain those who give advice because you like your "special" map. [quote]Look at the latest promaps. They're very evidently moving away from macro and trying to encourage early game, unique, action.[/quote]Difference is, they actually try to make theirs balanced. Yours is apparently perfect and thus any NEGATIVE feedback is irrelevant because you are still stuck in that mindset. [quote]My map is following the logical conclusion of this path. I won't claim my map is perfectly balanced. Hell, I won't even claim it's a little balanced. What I do claim, is that no one can know who it is unbalanced for without playing the map and discovering the specific timings of builds and how they interact with each other. Everything they say is [b]theory[/b]. Theories are not facts. And their theories especially, are not facts because they don't have any sort of argument to back them up. Uhm... this turned out to be a lot longer than I thought.[/quote]Now you're finally admitting it has problems, that's all I wanted all along. Learn to interact with people instead of brag about your SC playing skills when they tell you about an imbalance. I'm trying to help, so stop being a douchebag and let me. I do admit a lot of what I say is theory, but I've been probably mapping melee far longer than you have and I'm consequently pretty good at theorycraft. This post was also longer than I intended, you talk too much. Let's leave this damn argument behind and grow up now. You've been acting less and less maturely since this started (hint: BWMN), so I think you might want to cool off before you post your 5 paragraph response to my post.

Quote from Chef

What did you hope to achieve by quoting yourselves from one forum to another? The only reason I can think of is that you wanted if influence other people who see my map's opinions. There's a very good word for people who do things like this

Trolls like yourself? Let's not get started about your unjustified attitude against Warboards from the very start.

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In case you're wondering, SENers, I disagree with both of them. I've refuted them with clear and precise examples, but since neither of them play StarCraft, the examples confused them and so they simply ignored them.

The reason we don't listen to you is because you make shit up. Both myself and Proto have played SC and still do (though I have been busy with school the last month), yet you suddenly come up with this fabrication to improve your reputation, which seems very important to you.

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And if you think 'forcing' players to one base limits strategies, how about maps like Arcadia that force players to double expand and submit to macro strategies (of which there are very few compared to one base strats), where the action doesn't even start until 10 minutes into the game cause there's this whole stupid build up phase.

Just so you know, WGT only picks the maps they do because they were made by Korea's popular mappers, not because they really are the best maps out there. Making an imbalanced map and refusing to correct the problems because some WGT map (in your opinion, not mine) follows the same path as this map is not a good enough reason. A mapper should strive to improve, not disdain those who give advice because you like your "special" map.

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Look at the latest promaps. They're very evidently moving away from macro and trying to encourage early game, unique, action.

Difference is, they actually try to make theirs balanced. Yours is apparently perfect and thus any NEGATIVE feedback is irrelevant because you are still stuck in that mindset.

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My map is following the logical conclusion of this path. I won't claim my map is perfectly balanced. Hell, I won't even claim it's a little balanced. What I do claim, is that no one can know who it is unbalanced for without playing the map and discovering the specific timings of builds and how they interact with each other. Everything they say is theory. Theories are not facts. And their theories especially, are not facts because they don't have any sort of argument to back them up. Uhm... this turned out to be a lot longer than I thought.

Now you're finally admitting it has problems, that's all I wanted all along. Learn to interact with people instead of brag about your SC playing skills when they tell you about an imbalance. I'm trying to help, so stop being a douchebag and let me. I do admit a lot of what I say is theory, but I've been probably mapping melee far longer than you have and I'm consequently pretty good at theorycraft.

This post was also longer than I intended, you talk too much. Let's leave this damn argument behind and grow up now. You've been acting less and less maturely since this started (hint: BWMN), so I think you might want to cool off before you post your 5 paragraph response to my post.

[quote]I'm trying to help, so stop being a douchebag and let me.[/quote] Quote what you said that I could actually incorporate into any decision I make. A specific change to the map. Telling me the entire map is shit doesn't help me at all. I've made standard maps before; I know how to do it. The only thing I've learned from your posts is that some people really, really hate anything new. PS: Maturity is knowing when to leave an argument, or to let bygones be bygones. I made a post on WarBoards that fairly politely said that we had reached an impass and continuing to post at WarBoards would be negative for all parties involved. Then you and protogod chased me to BWMN and harassed me with spam posts on my map page (and now you're harassing me here). BTW, that last part is what immaturity is. PSS:[quote]Now you're finally admitting it has problems, that's all I wanted all along.[/quote] Did you read the op? Lawl.

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I'm trying to help, so stop being a douchebag and let me.

Quote what you said that I could actually incorporate into any decision I make. A specific change to the map. Telling me the entire map is shit doesn't help me at all. I've made standard maps before; I know how to do it. The only thing I've learned from your posts is that some people really, really hate anything new.

PS: Maturity is knowing when to leave an argument, or to let bygones be bygones. I made a post on WarBoards that fairly politely said that we had reached an impass and continuing to post at WarBoards would be negative for all parties involved. Then you and protogod chased me to BWMN and harassed me with spam posts on my map page (and now you're harassing me here). BTW, that last part is what immaturity is.

PSS:

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Now you're finally admitting it has problems, that's all I wanted all along.

Did you read the op? Lawl.

You know why I went to BWMN to comment your map there too? You went to BWMN to trash talk WB and make up excuses for your own bad reviews. Grow the fuck up and accept that people have legitimate criticisms for your map.

You know why I went to BWMN to comment your map there too? You went to BWMN to trash talk WB and make up excuses for your own bad reviews.

Grow the fuck up and accept that people have legitimate criticisms for your map.

To start: I got bad reviews on TL too. But they were at least decently thought out, and by people who actually play the game. I don't make up excuses for them. WarBoards, as far as I'm concerned didn't give me any reviews. "TERRAN WINS IN 7 MINUTES EVERY GAME" is not a review. It's a display of sheer stupidity. You want to play a game on this map where you're Terran, and I'm any other race? I'll show you it's not impossible to win as another race. For shits and giggles, let's go completely off topic and examine how ridiculous you are. Let's see. You say "Grow the fuck up and accept... blah blah blah" and you chase me around internet forums harassing me. Now, when you say "Grow the fuck up", obviously that's not going to make me suddenly agree with everything you're saying. That's selfish indulgence to insult me (and protect your own pride since you're apparently shocked and offended I want nothing to do with you). Now, what is maturity exactly? I figured it was somewhat the opposite of that. Avoiding petty self indulgence in favour of things that will actually get you results. If you had gone about your posts in a nice and respectful way, that would have been mature. You didn't and you weren't. When I sent you the PM on WarBoards, I thought about ending it with a "Grow the fuck up" too; it's catchy. But I decided that wouldn't get me anywhere, so I erased it. And for the benefit of readers, I'll post what I sent him. [quote]Please stop spamming map threads on BWMN. If you wanted to argue with me (I really don't think you did) you should have just started a topic in the offtopic forum. BWMN is a mapping site with very specific goals (IE: only map related posts get any attention). [quote]I mean really, if you cant accept constructive criticism, what kind of mapmaker are you?[/quote] Constructive criticism is what I receive on BWMN and TL. Believe me, most of my maps get negative comments on those two sites, and I often edit my maps based on their comments. The comments on WarBoards are unspecific, vague, and generally disproved by the simplest of observable facts. Compare criticism on other sites, by people like myself and Ahzz, with that of your own and that which is typical of this site. One gives specific examples and references to extremely probably scenarios in game, and one just states a map is imbalanced with very vague references to units that you apparently don't know the counter to. TBH, I don't know why I posted the map on this site. None of you play StarCraft, so there's no chance I'll get any replays out of you. Only two users here actually give advice a mapper can use, the rest go through the motions as if every map is the same. I guess I wasn't thinking (happens sometimes when you're having a bad day). I'm not posting on this site anymore, what more do you want from me?[/quote]

To start: I got bad reviews on TL too. But they were at least decently thought out, and by people who actually play the game. I don't make up excuses for them. WarBoards, as far as I'm concerned didn't give me any reviews. "TERRAN WINS IN 7 MINUTES EVERY GAME" is not a review. It's a display of sheer stupidity. You want to play a game on this map where you're Terran, and I'm any other race? I'll show you it's not impossible to win as another race.

For shits and giggles, let's go completely off topic and examine how ridiculous you are.

Let's see. You say "Grow the fuck up and accept... blah blah blah" and you chase me around internet forums harassing me. Now, when you say "Grow the fuck up", obviously that's not going to make me suddenly agree with everything you're saying. That's selfish indulgence to insult me (and protect your own pride since you're apparently shocked and offended I want nothing to do with you). Now, what is maturity exactly? I figured it was somewhat the opposite of that. Avoiding petty self indulgence in favour of things that will actually get you results. If you had gone about your posts in a nice and respectful way, that would have been mature. You didn't and you weren't. When I sent you the PM on WarBoards, I thought about ending it with a "Grow the fuck up" too; it's catchy. But I decided that wouldn't get me anywhere, so I erased it. And for the benefit of readers, I'll post what I sent him.

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Please stop spamming map threads on BWMN. If you wanted to argue with me (I really don't think you did) you should have just started a topic in the offtopic forum. BWMN is a mapping site with very specific goals (IE: only map related posts get any attention).

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I mean really, if you cant accept constructive criticism, what kind of mapmaker are you?

Constructive criticism is what I receive on BWMN and TL. Believe me, most of my maps get negative comments on those two sites, and I often edit my maps based on their comments. The comments on WarBoards are unspecific, vague, and generally disproved by the simplest of observable facts. Compare criticism on other sites, by people like myself and Ahzz, with that of your own and that which is typical of this site. One gives specific examples and references to extremely probably scenarios in game, and one just states a map is imbalanced with very vague references to units that you apparently don't know the counter to. TBH, I don't know why I posted the map on this site. None of you play StarCraft, so there's no chance I'll get any replays out of you. Only two users here actually give advice a mapper can use, the rest go through the motions as if every map is the same. I guess I wasn't thinking (happens sometimes when you're having a bad day).

I'm not posting on this site anymore, what more do you want from me?

[quote=Chef]For shits and giggles, let's go completely off topic and examine how ridiculous you are.[/quote]So much for you being the "mature" person of the debate.

Quote from Chef

For shits and giggles, let's go completely off topic and examine how ridiculous you are.

So much for you being the "mature" person of the debate.

And deleting posts against you, while encouraging WB bashing on BWMN is oh-so-much more mature, right?

And deleting posts against you, while encouraging WB bashing on BWMN is oh-so-much more mature, right?

[quote]If you two want to argue, start a thread IN THE FORUM. Stop spamming the map page. Here, I'll even invisible the posts about Warboards for you. [/quote] And I did that right when it happened. What is the point of continuing to harass me? Do you think you're going to change my mind? As far as I'm concerned, this thing started and ended on WarBoards, so keep it on WarBoards. [quote]So much for you being the "mature" person of the debate.[/quote] What debate? This is me telling you to fuck off and leave it alone. That's not up for argument, that's a request.

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If you two want to argue, start a thread IN THE FORUM. Stop spamming the map page.

Here, I'll even invisible the posts about Warboards for you.

And I did that right when it happened. What is the point of continuing to harass me? Do you think you're going to change my mind? As far as I'm concerned, this thing started and ended on WarBoards, so keep it on WarBoards.

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So much for you being the "mature" person of the debate.

What debate? This is me telling you to fuck off and leave it alone. That's not up for argument, that's a request.

[quote=Me above]This post was also longer than I intended, you talk too much. Let's leave this damn argument behind and grow up now.[/quote] In case you hadn't noticed, I was trying to end it, but of course you made a nice long essay response to keep it going.

Quote from Me above

This post was also longer than I intended, you talk too much. Let's leave this damn argument behind and grow up now.

In case you hadn't noticed, I was trying to end it, but of course you made a nice long essay response to keep it going.

*applause* Good job, fuckwads. You've managed to ruin ANOTHER perfectly good thread.

*applause*

Good job, fuckwads. You've managed to ruin ANOTHER perfectly good thread.

[quote=Killer_Kow]*applause*[/quote] thx u, thx u. I'd like to thank jesus, my manager, my momma, and all the little people who made htis possible.

Quote from Killer_Kow

*applause*

thx u, thx u. I'd like to thank jesus, my manager, my momma, and all the little people who made htis possible.

[quote=Killer_Kow]*applause* Good job, fuckwads. You've managed to ruin ANOTHER perfectly good thread.[/quote] Thank you. Oh and thank you for your positive contributions as well.

Quote from Killer_Kow

*applause*

Good job, fuckwads. You've managed to ruin ANOTHER perfectly good thread.

Thank you.

Oh and thank you for your positive contributions as well.

[quote] In case you hadn't noticed, I was trying to end it, but of course you made a nice long essay response to keep it going.[/quote] When you're trying to end something, it helps if you don't insult someone as you do it. Cause, you know, that sort of gives them every reason to respond. -EV ftw.

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In case you hadn't noticed, I was trying to end it, but of course you made a nice long essay response to keep it going.

When you're trying to end something, it helps if you don't insult someone as you do it. Cause, you know, that sort of gives them every reason to respond. -EV ftw.

I accept it for experimental, else *bleeargh* it's a very imba map.Next time read the guide to make GOOD, BALANCED maps.

I accept it for experimental, else *bleeargh* it's a very imba map.Next time read the guide to make GOOD, BALANCED maps.