DISCLAIMER: This is not a topic about "which one is better", "morality", or "zomg map steal". If you're interested in debating this sensitive issue this will not be the place to do it. Although my background is from Maplantis, I am not interested in pushing my own opinions on people, I really had nothing to do with its creation or any current development. Rather, I think of this issue like religion - everybody has their own stance but everybody manages to live in peace (except for extremists :P ). I am posting this topic because I am inheriting one of the better things I would do at Maplantis, post about it and let everybody put their word in before making a decision. There are different groups of people on SEN with different self interests. Some want melee, some want ums, some want modding, etc. In this, there are people who also like unprotection or protection or feel neutral to the issue. We're trying to make everyone at SEN feel happy about their interests, but compromises must be made. In the end SEN is a site about mapping so any choices we make doesn't effect that goal. The unprotection, open mapping and protection movements have all drastically changed since I was last here at SEN and we all need to settle down and decide how to make everybody happy, not just yourselves. The main thing I have going is "any rule you make to one side applies to the other". If we were to say that we wouldn't host unprotectors or allow discussion of them, the same would apply to protectors. No action will be taken until we gather in majority of the feedback and decide what to do from there. So please, voice your opinion :)

DISCLAIMER: This is not a topic about "which one is better", "morality", or "zomg map steal". If you're interested in debating this sensitive issue this will not be the place to do it. Although my background is from Maplantis, I am not interested in pushing my own opinions on people, I really had nothing to do with its creation or any current development. Rather, I think of this issue like religion - everybody has their own stance but everybody manages to live in peace (except for extremists ). I am posting this topic because I am inheriting one of the better things I would do at Maplantis, post about it and let everybody put their word in before making a decision.

There are different groups of people on SEN with different self interests. Some want melee, some want ums, some want modding, etc. In this, there are people who also like unprotection or protection or feel neutral to the issue. We're trying to make everyone at SEN feel happy about their interests, but compromises must be made.

In the end SEN is a site about mapping so any choices we make doesn't effect that goal.

The unprotection, open mapping and protection movements have all drastically changed since I was last here at SEN and we all need to settle down and decide how to make everybody happy, not just yourselves. The main thing I have going is "any rule you make to one side applies to the other". If we were to say that we wouldn't host unprotectors or allow discussion of them, the same would apply to protectors. No action will be taken until we gather in majority of the feedback and decide what to do from there. So please, voice your opinion

;o I'm going to post what I just said: [13:21] protection does have it's place [13:21] against people who aren't visiting sen/maplantis [13:21] who can't see that person x doesn't wish for their map to be modified [13:21] while osmap has it's place [13:22] to unprotect maps that should very well be considered "abandonware" I'm pretty sure everyone here knows where to get osmap. So making it public available here would only give SEN more control over a user's right to protect their maps. Sounds strange, right? It will all boil down to a little check mark in your map editing section, do you or do you not wish people to edit your maps? Of course, people can very easily disobey that rule, but they'll be damned if they host it on SEN. And, judging from SC's play list, most of the people who actually care about maps are right here. And I'd at least hope everyone here would honor another person's wishes to keep their map protected or not.

;o I'm going to post what I just said:

[13:21] protection does have it's place
[13:21] against people who aren't visiting sen/maplantis
[13:21] who can't see that person x doesn't wish for their map to be modified
[13:21] while osmap has it's place
[13:22] to unprotect maps that should very well be considered "abandonware"

I'm pretty sure everyone here knows where to get osmap. So making it public available here would only give SEN more control over a user's right to protect their maps. Sounds strange, right?
It will all boil down to a little check mark in your map editing section, do you or do you not wish people to edit your maps? Of course, people can very easily disobey that rule, but they'll be damned if they host it on SEN. And, judging from SC's play list, most of the people who actually care about maps are right here. And I'd at least hope everyone here would honor another person's wishes to keep their map protected or not.

Just a question but how many people have actually even heard about osmap. I thought it was a controversy between the 2 sites. Everywhere else no one has ever head about it.

Just a question but how many people have actually even heard about osmap. I thought it was a controversy between the 2 sites. Everywhere else no one has ever head about it.

[quote=JordanN]Just a question but how many people have actually even heard about osmap. I thought it was a controversy between the 2 sites. Everywhere else no one has ever head about it.[/quote] OSMAP was made before Maplantis. Protection is an illusion that makes noobs feel safe even though they will probably hit the lottery before someone would actually want to steal any of their maps, and anyone who really wants to steal a map can do it no matter what you do.

Quote from JordanN

Just a question but how many people have actually even heard about osmap. I thought it was a controversy between the 2 sites. Everywhere else no one has ever head about it.

OSMAP was made before Maplantis.

Protection is an illusion that makes noobs feel safe even though they will probably hit the lottery before someone would actually want to steal any of their maps, and anyone who really wants to steal a map can do it no matter what you do.

[quote=devilesk][quote=JordanN]Just a question but how many people have actually even heard about osmap. I thought it was a controversy between the 2 sites. Everywhere else no one has ever head about it.[/quote] OSMAP was made before Maplantis. Protection is an illusion that makes noobs feel safe even though they will probably hit the lottery before someone would actually want to steal any of their maps, and anyone who really wants to steal a map can do it no matter what you do.[/quote] Well see devilesk thats a point OSMAP is good in many ways cause I use it to learn.Also like you said most people use protectin because of what OSMAP can be used for.Now some people have had their maps stolen even though their map makers and all knows who made it.Lets just say this did happen.It got stolen and hosted for like 1 day and then hosted by a few noobs and so on.Wouldn't you think that could cause some trouble?I am not saying that would happen but,if it did what could we do about it,like you said nothing :l.Now if people just used OSMAP to learn from maps hey then maybe we would have more mappers and stuff.

Quote from devilesk

Quote from JordanN

Just a question but how many people have actually even heard about osmap. I thought it was a controversy between the 2 sites. Everywhere else no one has ever head about it.

OSMAP was made before Maplantis.

Protection is an illusion that makes noobs feel safe even though they will probably hit the lottery before someone would actually want to steal any of their maps, and anyone who really wants to steal a map can do it no matter what you do.

Well see devilesk thats a point OSMAP is good in many ways cause I use it to learn.Also like you said most people use protectin because of what OSMAP can be used for.Now some people have had their maps stolen even though their map makers and all knows who made it.Lets just say this did happen.It got stolen and hosted for like 1 day and then hosted by a few noobs and so on.Wouldn't you think that could cause some trouble?I am not saying that would happen but,if it did what could we do about it,like you said nothing :l.Now if people just used OSMAP to learn from maps hey then maybe we would have more mappers and stuff.

[quote=Twitch][quote=devilesk][quote=JordanN]Just a question but how many people have actually even heard about osmap. I thought it was a controversy between the 2 sites. Everywhere else no one has ever head about it.[/quote] OSMAP was made before Maplantis. Protection is an illusion that makes noobs feel safe even though they will probably hit the lottery before someone would actually want to steal any of their maps, and anyone who really wants to steal a map can do it no matter what you do.[/quote] Well see devilesk thats a point OSMAP is good in many ways cause I use it to learn.Also like you said most people use protectin because of what OSMAP can be used for.Now some people have had their maps stolen even though their map makers and all knows who made it.Lets just say this did happen.It got stolen and hosted for like 1 day and then hosted by a few noobs and so on.Wouldn't you think that could cause some trouble?I am not saying that would happen but,if it did what could we do about it,like you said nothing :l.Now if people just used OSMAP to learn from maps hey then maybe we would have more mappers and stuff.[/quote] So much for not having a debate. :P

Quote from Twitch

Quote from devilesk

Quote from JordanN

Just a question but how many people have actually even heard about osmap. I thought it was a controversy between the 2 sites. Everywhere else no one has ever head about it.

OSMAP was made before Maplantis.

Protection is an illusion that makes noobs feel safe even though they will probably hit the lottery before someone would actually want to steal any of their maps, and anyone who really wants to steal a map can do it no matter what you do.

Well see devilesk thats a point OSMAP is good in many ways cause I use it to learn.Also like you said most people use protectin because of what OSMAP can be used for.Now some people have had their maps stolen even though their map makers and all knows who made it.Lets just say this did happen.It got stolen and hosted for like 1 day and then hosted by a few noobs and so on.Wouldn't you think that could cause some trouble?I am not saying that would happen but,if it did what could we do about it,like you said nothing :l.Now if people just used OSMAP to learn from maps hey then maybe we would have more mappers and stuff.

So much for not having a debate.

Edit: BIOSEDJFSDUIOHJFKLSDJF Double post again?!

Edit: BIOSEDJFSDUIOHJFKLSDJF

Double post again?!

If a person doesn't care if their map is modified, they can just leave it unprotected... Question: what is the point of this topic if it's not a debate of whether or not to host OSMAP? In the end, people that want to find unprotectors will, so anything we do here (short of actively working against OSMAP or hosting OSMAP) is really just a gesture. I'm content with not hosting stolen maps, personally. Beyond that, I really couldn't care less.

If a person doesn't care if their map is modified, they can just leave it unprotected...

Question: what is the point of this topic if it's not a debate of whether or not to host OSMAP? In the end, people that want to find unprotectors will, so anything we do here (short of actively working against OSMAP or hosting OSMAP) is really just a gesture. I'm content with not hosting stolen maps, personally. Beyond that, I really couldn't care less.

[quote=Felagund]If a person doesn't care if their map is modified, they can just leave it unprotected... Question: what is the point of this topic if it's not a debate of whether or not to host OSMAP? In the end, people that want to find unprotectors will, so anything we do here (short of actively working against OSMAP or hosting OSMAP) is really just a gesture. I'm content with not hosting stolen maps, personally. Beyond that, I really couldn't care less.[/quote] Agree'd. LW already fucked the whole concept of protection over way back when by making and releasing OSMAP in the first place. But wait... I have an idea! Maybe we can go [i]back in time[/i] and prevent him from ever being born! Then there would be no OSMAP! To the Tux Time Machine! :lol:

Quote from Felagund

If a person doesn't care if their map is modified, they can just leave it unprotected...

Question: what is the point of this topic if it's not a debate of whether or not to host OSMAP? In the end, people that want to find unprotectors will, so anything we do here (short of actively working against OSMAP or hosting OSMAP) is really just a gesture. I'm content with not hosting stolen maps, personally. Beyond that, I really couldn't care less.

Agree'd.

LW already fucked the whole concept of protection over way back when by making and releasing OSMAP in the first place.



But wait... I have an idea! Maybe we can go back in time and prevent him from ever being born! Then there would be no OSMAP!

To the Tux Time Machine!

Well if we were to go back in time then we would've already done it (Since it would be the past, and we'd be living in the future). So unless there's alternate realities we can't go back in time. But if there are alternate realities maybe we're living in the best one, maybe another product is made that's even worse than OSMAP. CONSPIRACY!!!EN!OE

Well if we were to go back in time then we would've already done it (Since it would be the past, and we'd be living in the future). So unless there's alternate realities we can't go back in time. But if there are alternate realities maybe we're living in the best one, maybe another product is made that's even worse than OSMAP.

CONSPIRACY!!!EN!OE

[QUOTE]Well see devilesk thats a point OSMAP is good in many ways cause I use it to learn.Also like you said most people use protection because of what OSMAP can be used for.Now some people have had their maps stolen even though their map makers and all knows who made it.Lets just say this did happen.It got stolen and hosted for like 1 day and then hosted by a few noobs and so on.Wouldn't you think that could cause some trouble?I am not saying that would happen but,if it did what could we do about it,like you said nothing :l.Now if people just used OSMAP to learn from maps hey then maybe we would have more mappers and stuff.[/QUOTE] 1. Use a space after a punctuation mark/comma. 2. There is nothing wrong from learning from my open source example maps or just simply asking people for help. You don't have to unprotect someone's map just to figure out how to do something.

Quote

Well see devilesk thats a point OSMAP is good in many ways cause I use it to learn.Also like you said most people use protection because of what OSMAP can be used for.Now some people have had their maps stolen even though their map makers and all knows who made it.Lets just say this did happen.It got stolen and hosted for like 1 day and then hosted by a few noobs and so on.Wouldn't you think that could cause some trouble?I am not saying that would happen but,if it did what could we do about it,like you said nothing :l.Now if people just used OSMAP to learn from maps hey then maybe we would have more mappers and stuff.

1. Use a space after a punctuation mark/comma.
2. There is nothing wrong from learning from my open source example maps or just simply asking people for help. You don't have to unprotect someone's map just to figure out how to do something.

I'm asking you guys how we should treat discussion (linking to, talking about, production of, unprotectors and protectors).

I'm asking you guys how we should treat discussion (linking to, talking about, production of, unprotectors and protectors).

I'm pro-protection, however, I'm not totally against OSMAP. In some cases it might be useful, but only seldom. I think that if you want your maps to be edited, just put "Open Source" in the map description/briefing. AS for SEN, I think that the current rules are fine for it.

I'm pro-protection, however, I'm not totally against OSMAP. In some cases it might be useful, but only seldom. I think that if you want your maps to be edited, just put "Open Source" in the map description/briefing. AS for SEN, I think that the current rules are fine for it.

My main problem with the policy of OS Map is that [I]the program has already been released[/I]. Stop trying to keep down a program that everyone already knows about, it's not doing anything but preventing mappers from telling others how to use an extremely handy tool to make their maps better. In my mind, the whole point in protection now that everyone knows about OS Map anyway is to keep newb players on B.Net from editing your map in stupid ways. If SeN stops pussyfooting around about allowing us to use OS Map for its positive side, then I would call this community perfect.

My main problem with the policy of OS Map is that the program has already been released. Stop trying to keep down a program that everyone already knows about, it's not doing anything but preventing mappers from telling others how to use an extremely handy tool to make their maps better.

In my mind, the whole point in protection now that everyone knows about OS Map anyway is to keep newb players on B.Net from editing your map in stupid ways. If SeN stops pussyfooting around about allowing us to use OS Map for its positive side, then I would call this community perfect.

I think that without a doubt we should host protection programs so that random noobs on Battle.net don't go silly with rereleasing their own versions of a map. As a community, OSMAP might have its uses, but I believe it's your own personal belief (like religion) about OSMAP and its driving ideals. Regardless of the morality of LW's actions, I think that most we can do as a site now is teach fair mapping practices. It's a bit unfair to impose an open or closed mapping policy across SEN as such an ideology may go against some people's wishes (and undoubtedly will as the months following the release of OSMAP have shown us). In that light, I wish to neither curtail nor favor discussion, linking, etc. of unprotectors, so long as the first rule (that the creator's wishes are kept intact) is followed. When that right is infringed upon (release of a modified map which the creator did not wish to have modified or simply stealing a map), then the stealer should by all means be punished. So long as that tenet is followed (and enforced by SEN), then I have no problem with the hosting and discussion of OSMAP as it does have its uses. This is basically a recap of what some people (I believe Yoshi is one, forgive me if I'm mistaken) have been saying for a while. To finish this statement out, a neutral stance on unprotection vs. protection is probably best option with an emphasis placed on the wishes of the creator. I don't think we should be "support OSMAP" or "OSMAP sucks!" That's a rather immature stance either way.

I think that without a doubt we should host protection programs so that random noobs on Battle.net don't go silly with rereleasing their own versions of a map. As a community, OSMAP might have its uses, but I believe it's your own personal belief (like religion) about OSMAP and its driving ideals. Regardless of the morality of LW's actions, I think that most we can do as a site now is teach fair mapping practices. It's a bit unfair to impose an open or closed mapping policy across SEN as such an ideology may go against some people's wishes (and undoubtedly will as the months following the release of OSMAP have shown us).

In that light, I wish to neither curtail nor favor discussion, linking, etc. of unprotectors, so long as the first rule (that the creator's wishes are kept intact) is followed. When that right is infringed upon (release of a modified map which the creator did not wish to have modified or simply stealing a map), then the stealer should by all means be punished. So long as that tenet is followed (and enforced by SEN), then I have no problem with the hosting and discussion of OSMAP as it does have its uses. This is basically a recap of what some people (I believe Yoshi is one, forgive me if I'm mistaken) have been saying for a while. To finish this statement out, a neutral stance on unprotection vs. protection is probably best option with an emphasis placed on the wishes of the creator. I don't think we should be "support OSMAP" or "OSMAP sucks!" That's a rather immature stance either way.

Protection VS Unprotection means the map maker rights VS the comunity rights means capitalism VS comunism :O This has totally to be moved to the science, religion and politics subforum!

Protection VS Unprotection means the map maker rights VS the comunity rights means capitalism VS comunism
This has totally to be moved to the science, religion and politics subforum!

[color=#b5b5ff]I think, as I've always said, that protectors should be allowed and fine because they do not abridge anyone's rights. Unprotectors and protectors are [i]not[/i] comparable because protectors do not force all maps to be closed. To reply to your quote elsewhere [QUOTE]Simply because there are no intellectual property rights on SC maps. Thats just fancy words for saying "I am afraid of people stealing or editing my map". If you're going to start relating map making to real actual legal issues, then please stop, because you are not telling me your opinion, you're telling me lies in order to scare me into taking your side, which doesn't work on me.[/QUOTE] Intellectual rights are a moral thing, and as I have also said before, the central idea behind the OSMAP debate is this: [size=25][b]Does a mapper, upon completing their map, have the [i]moral[/i] right to stop others from editing their map?[/b][/size] This is [b]not[/b] a question of actual ability or legal ability, but a moral question. There are people that believe the answer to this question is no, and that position is not attackable in any logical sense, but I loathe such morals. In my moral opinion, the creator of the map should retain the right to be the only modifier of his or her map if he or she wishes. Yes, OSMAP is widely available by now, and yes, that is an inescapable fact. That does [i]not[/i] mean we have to compromise the morals of SEN. I think that direct links to a download of OSMAP should be prohibited, and posts in MMA should not tell people to use OSMAP (because it does not answer the problem without providing the member with OSMAP). Yes, OSMAP has useful applications, and I can support keeping a guarded copy of the unprotecting technology for use in things like a download database. But making it available to the general public compromises the moral intellectual rights I believe mapmakers have.[/color]

[20:40:21] LegacyWeapon: {{removed}} is my number one bug reporter [20:40:48] LegacyWeapon: because he mass unprotects maps to extract the sounds [20:40:57] Moose: Lol? [20:41:03] Moose: You use an MPQ viewer for that [20:41:07] LegacyWeapon: Hah [20:41:28] LegacyWeapon: Moose, have you ever looked inside a MPQ that's been shadow protected? [20:41:40] Moose: Nope [20:41:43] LegacyWeapon: Everything is unknown. [20:41:50] Moose: I've never wanted sounds from a shadow protected maps [20:42:03] Moose: Are the files still listed? [20:42:05] LegacyWeapon: Nope [20:42:26] Moose: I don't even know what Shadown Protector is [20:42:56] Moose: Shadow* [20:43:18] LegacyWeapon: Why do you want me to stop updating OSMAP2 [20:43:29] LegacyWeapon: Tell me again please. [20:43:43] Moose: But I'm sure whoever made it, assuming it was made after OSMAP, did it to thwart it, not to go "LOL I WILL HIED MY SOUNDZ FOREVER" [20:45:40] Moose: Nothing I haven't stated in http://www.maplantis.org/index.php?topic=1015 [20:45:57] LegacyWeapon: Why should I stop updating. I've already made the program. [20:47:27] Moose: There was never a necessity for it [20:47:37] Moose: The fact that you've started it means you have to see it through forever? [20:48:53] LegacyWeapon: I'm simply fixing problems that I'm encoutering [20:49:31] Moose: They're only problems because you label them so [20:50:05] LegacyWeapon: Alright [20:51:34] Moose: There's also the issue of whether or not intellectual rights to a map exist... you and a bunch of other people believing they do not exist does not make that so. [20:52:03] Moose: Likewise [20:52:13] Moose: Neither does me or anyone else believing they do make them exist.... [20:52:33] LegacyWeapon: Okay [20:52:34] Moose: Leading that to a dead end, other than the fact that you've got the stronger weapons [20:56:34] Moose: Which essentially means [20:56:40] Moose: OSMAP is following "might makes right" [20:56:54] LegacyWeapon: I guess so. --- [21:04:20] Cheeze: subsubpoint #2 the compression sucks. [21:04:26] Moose: I like how* {{correction for this transcript}} you combine compression and open source [21:04:39] LegacyWeapon: Thanks [21:04:39] Moose: You certainly couldn't restore OSMAP's compression to the map's original state [21:04:45] Moose: More than you could any other compressor's..... [21:05:02] Cheeze: yeah ok i need to think before i make arguments, SRY moose lul [21:05:04] Cheeze: calc help pls :( [21:05:16] Moose: If that's what you mean by sucks ;) [21:05:27] Moose: Like... going against the main intention of the program LOL

[20:40:21] LegacyWeapon: {{removed}} is my number one bug reporter
[20:40:48] LegacyWeapon: because he mass unprotects maps to extract the sounds
[20:40:57] Moose: Lol?
[20:41:03] Moose: You use an MPQ viewer for that
[20:41:07] LegacyWeapon: Hah
[20:41:28] LegacyWeapon: Moose, have you ever looked inside a MPQ that's been shadow protected?
[20:41:40] Moose: Nope
[20:41:43] LegacyWeapon: Everything is unknown.
[20:41:50] Moose: I've never wanted sounds from a shadow protected maps
[20:42:03] Moose: Are the files still listed?
[20:42:05] LegacyWeapon: Nope
[20:42:26] Moose: I don't even know what Shadown Protector is
[20:42:56] Moose: Shadow*
[20:43:18] LegacyWeapon: Why do you want me to stop updating OSMAP2
[20:43:29] LegacyWeapon: Tell me again please.
[20:43:43] Moose: But I'm sure whoever made it, assuming it was made after OSMAP, did it to thwart it, not to go "LOL I WILL HIED MY SOUNDZ FOREVER"
[20:45:40] Moose: Nothing I haven't stated in http://www.maplantis.org/index.php?topic=1015
[20:45:57] LegacyWeapon: Why should I stop updating. I've already made the program.
[20:47:27] Moose: There was never a necessity for it
[20:47:37] Moose: The fact that you've started it means you have to see it through forever?
[20:48:53] LegacyWeapon: I'm simply fixing problems that I'm encoutering
[20:49:31] Moose: They're only problems because you label them so
[20:50:05] LegacyWeapon: Alright
[20:51:34] Moose: There's also the issue of whether or not intellectual rights to a map exist... you and a bunch of other people believing they do not exist does not make that so.
[20:52:03] Moose: Likewise
[20:52:13] Moose: Neither does me or anyone else believing they do make them exist....
[20:52:33] LegacyWeapon: Okay
[20:52:34] Moose: Leading that to a dead end, other than the fact that you've got the stronger weapons
[20:56:34] Moose: Which essentially means
[20:56:40] Moose: OSMAP is following "might makes right"
[20:56:54] LegacyWeapon: I guess so.

---

[21:04:20] Cheeze: subsubpoint #2 the compression sucks.
[21:04:26] Moose: I like how* {{correction for this transcript}} you combine compression and open source
[21:04:39] LegacyWeapon: Thanks
[21:04:39] Moose: You certainly couldn't restore OSMAP's compression to the map's original state
[21:04:45] Moose: More than you could any other compressor's.....
[21:05:02] Cheeze: yeah ok i need to think before i make arguments, SRY moose lul
[21:05:04] Cheeze: calc help pls
[21:05:16] Moose: If that's what you mean by sucks
[21:05:27] Moose: Like... going against the main intention of the program LOL

[QUOTE][20:52:34] Moose: Leading that to a dead end, other than the fact that you've got the stronger weapons [20:56:34] Moose: Which essentially means [20:56:40] Moose: OSMAP is following "might makes right" [20:56:54] LegacyWeapon: I guess so.[/QUOTE] [color=#b5b5ff]Exactly :P If there was some program that magically forced my map to be protected against my will, I would oppose that too.[/color]

blizzard could make unbeatable protection. All you have to do is make 22/7 and have the program opening up the map try to figure out the answer :P.

blizzard could make unbeatable protection. All you have to do is make 22/7 and have the program opening up the map try to figure out the answer .