Preface: Before I start a new discussion, let me make a few simple things clear. I'm not gonna try to host a discussion that'll get turned to crap again. That was unfair not just to me, but to a number of others who wanted to have it when it did before. That was a valid discussion which, in spite of some bumps, did manage reach a meaningful conclusion (I think, at least). But it certainly could have done without the extra crap.

If you don't know which discussion I'm referring to, then let's leave it at that.

Anyway, if that's too much to ask for this time, then let me know in advance. I'm not a forum mod, so I can't control topics. I've only once pursued being a mod in the past when I thought I could help the community as one, but just it's not my personal style to babysit. If the requirement is that the topic needs to be babysit this time, then I don't think there's a point to continuing. For my part, I'll try to control my temper, but I need to count on some minimal expectations of decency here. Being able to will help my temper, too.

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Anyway, sorry to start off on a bad note like that. Now, unlike with maps, which I've ultimately decided are just not something that can be taken seriously without having the reason already as your own (which just basically means they can't, for most practical purposes), films work differently. Firstly, they CAN be taken seriously in a way: The multi-million dollar movie industry is the obvious example. But for the viewer watching a movie, it's usually regarded as just entertainment. Passive entertainment, that is.

However, I'm not so sure about that anymore. Though films are entertaining (usually), I think they do also have a more serious purpose. To put it simply, communication. Communication of values, I should say. We don't always learn a heck of a lot through movies, but they act as a powerful tool for conveying values to the masses. Blockbusters usually show a main character smoking a cigarette in a cool way, a sexy female main character strutting her stuff, an awesome CG-powered action sequence, etc. All of these things lead not just to telling a story, but to conveying subtle values that the film makers want to present and sell to the audience.


Take the movie Postal, for example. Not that I've actually seen it (I don't think I even need to ), but I can guess pretty readily that the primary value of the movie is to present the message that taboos are unnecessary, basically. Maybe.

Also the movie Cloverfield. Though others may disagree, I think it did have some vague 9/11 allusions contained in the expression of a disaster scenario hitting close to home on a personal level (as witnessed through the hand-held camera perspective), which ultimately conveyed a feeling of nihilism through its unceasing desperation and personal nature.



Every film has its own sets of values contained within. Values are a strong aspect of our culture, as they ultimately define our decisions and our actions. And films are one of the biggest ways these values are presented. Everything from the cheesiest Disney talking animals flick to the most hard core psychological horror film. They're all trying to tell us something.

That's why I think films are, in fact, Serious Business. They have the power to challenge taboos, tell you what is right and wrong, define our image of sex appeal, and even be used for propaganda. We often ignore that power, and brush it off as meager entertainment, but it's there. And it's very real. Maybe it's not AS serious as many other things, but any time I used to hear kids back in my childhood parroting things like "Asta le Vista baby!" or "I'm gonna get medieval on yo' ass!", I knew it was there!
No, don't ask.



So, do you agree? And what do you think?

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Apr 7 2008, 7:13 pm by Tuxedo-Templar.

I totally agree with what you have to say. I know that personally, one of the movies that has defined who I am today is a documentary I stumbled across a couple of years ago called Metal: A headbangers journey. It basically follows the narrators journey through different parts of the world as it explores the history, culture, fans, ect... of the metal genre. It introduced me to many new sub-genres of metal that I've never heard before and it made me allot prouder to be a metal head. It made me want to go to every death and black metal show that came to town. Without that movie I would surely be a different person today.

Being part of pop culture, movies have influence over those that watch them. Some movies exploit that influence and, as you said, impart values or make the watchers aware of something, and others don't (read: Transformers). I think that a really well-made movie (or book, for that matter) should give the watcher something to walk away with. Sadly, I haven't watched any movies that really do that - I'm somewhat content with action/thrillers.

ANY film, even Transformers, has its values. Films that are ineffective at conveying values don't necessarily lack them. If you see a scene with a hero that wears a tuxedo and fights with kung fu, the value being sold there is something akin to "fighting is the 'cool' way to solve problems".

You see where I'm going with this.

Okay, you can label them "Serious Business", so what? That's great that if you look at it from a certain angle or dig enough you can attribute some value/message being sent. Seems to be lacking much insight and doesn't seem all too original.

Basically you've identified an aspect/characteristic of "film". To make this topic actually worthwhile you should have an opinion about it. Is being a "Serious Business" a good or bad thing, and why? Without that you might as well just have made a post and had this topic locked.

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Apr 7 2008, 10:33 pm by devilesk.

Perhaps I should've said 'effective values'. All films have some values, yes, but most don't really convey them or make an impression on the watcher. I came out from watching Transformers unchanged except that my ears were ringing from metal on metal action.

Being "Serious Business" implies that the important element of what's presented in films, their values, is something that's to be taken seriously. That is, whether or not we should dismiss it as just entertainment, or acknowledge that it does, in fact, have a real and tangible effect on us.

That argument is the basis for arguments about violence in movies, portrayals of the opposite sex, and other such stuff. It's the underlying notion those issues base upon: Whether that stuff is serious or not.


Personally, I think it is. Though in a more indirect, cumulative way. But certainly not as much as other influences.

Hmm, alright now there's something to "argue". I will agree that one can always find that some sort of message is being sent. However, I will disagree on the idea that it should be taken "seriously". First of all what do you mean by taking a message "seriously"? When one does this to a message what are they doing? Why can't I take a message seriously as entertainment? Why must serious always need to denote a disparaging difference to "fun"?

No, not at all. That's called entertainment. Not everything has an underlying meaning, or real life application. You're clearly not a writer. Many movies are made with the sole purpose of etertainment in mind, although certain 'values' may find their way into some of these movies. Do you assume every book or short story you read is an allegory, too? Movies are 'serious business' just as much for the entertainment sometimes, the expression. Now, if you want to count values/themes that the movie portrays which are wicked obvious and not new, like, for Transformers you could take Megatron's willingness to sacrifice himself for the betterment of humanity, blah blah, then more movies have said 'values'.

But, really, what is your point in saying it's 'serious business'? Isn't it pretty clear that some movies have a lot to say? Some movies are 'serious business', and others aren't.

Ugh. Here you go with your definitions again. I already said "serious" as in affecting people in real ways. That is, though we find films entertaining, we're being sold values from them as we watch them. Values that, based on the quality of the presentation, influence our own values. And what do values do? They control how we make decisions.


The problem with films being 'serious', though, is that we ultimately get to chose which we watch. Which blunts their consistent effectiveness somewhat; we often see a lot of films of various kinds that all throw at us their different values. But sometimes, like with major blockbusters, we are collectively inclined to watch certain ones at certain times. Not that this is usually a huge deal, but I think there is a consistency to that (and I believe the industry knows that) that could be considered.

*gasp* What if The Man is using cinema to slowly infiltrate into our minds the values they want us to hold to make us easier to control? It's a conspiracy I tells you!

Tuxedo-Templar: Serious Cat? More at 10.

So are you saying that a move such as "Texas Chainsaw Massacre", you'll eventually encounter a police officer that is a cannibal? Or a lumberjack using a chainsaw as a weapon with a leather mask in public? Or 300 where people are digging a bottomless pit and eventually kicking anybody down there? What about Astronaut Farmer? You're saying that anybody that got inspired by that movie, something non-industrial farmer that'll become an astronaut without going to NASA or any other Space Corporations in Russia/Japan/etc?

Really, not all movies are like that...

I have a problem with most English and Movie reviewers who try and find meanings in books and film. I call it the Bullshit factor. If you dig deep enough into something, and bullshit deep enough you can acquire anything you want from a film. The main character wears striped shirts, his life is narrow. But in the end he wears a plain colored shirt after his life has expanded. Some of the analogies that I've gotten from English teachers seem to be on that same level... what if the Author's intent or Director's intent was just what you saw without thinking deeply. Their intent was the cover and nothing underneath?

That's me though.

All the violent movies have not inspired me that violence is the answer, allbeit one can argue everything can be solved by it... at least solved to what the victor wants.
Still don't smoke, even though some characters I like smoke, friends, family.
I've been corrupted and Alchohol is delicious.

Unless. That must be it. I'm immune to mind control anti-independent thinking technologies! The conspiracy lives on...

"Affecting people in real ways" What the hell does that mean? How does something affect you in an unreal way?

Films are art. In modern society, almost all art tries to comment on society. You can take such comments to be cynical, but there is usually some humor inherent in the suggestion the piece makes.
I am saddened today as to how many people no longer think of movies as a form of art, and how much this influences much of what we perceive.
For instance, many films tend to reference historical events, and represent those events in a dramatical way. People that go to see the movie, don't necessarily interpret the drama out of the work, and many believe to be such movies as factual. IF YOU EVER SEE ANYTHING MADE BY HOLLYWOOD, IT IS NOT REAL!

Its when people take the movies too seriously that they lose sight of what the film is there for, simply enjoyment.

In other words, I agree with you, movies influence our values, but that is not their intended purpose. People are simply stupid enough to believe them. They think that movies try to convey a sense of truth in them, which even documentaries have a very difficult time doing. (Especially with the rise of reality shows, where the "reality" is even staged.)

Blame quantity.

It's not their purpose, but it's their effect nonetheless. And it works much better than documentaries often do because it's not 'telling' the viewer something; it's 'showing' them. If that makes any sense.
stfu devilesk before you even start on that

I guess one of the things I want to try to get this thread to do is to help recognize that fact. Whether or not movies are trying to sell us some kinds of values, the fact is that they are. And being passive to that makes you stupid.


So yeah. Don't be stupid.

No, you haven't shown that the presumed messages should be given any value at all. There is a possibility that any person can identify a "message" or "value", intended or not, but that doesn't mean one should pay attention to it or give it any importance. Simply existing doesn't mean anything.

No, not all of them sell values, period, end of story. Not every movie tries to portray values (most do not). Not every movie will affect the viewer's values (most do not). There is potential to find values in anything, but if that is all your thesis says, then you're not saying anything at all and this topic is pointless.


Yeah, not all values a movie's going to show us are correct, or they may fall in a gray area, so naturally some things we see will conflict. How is that a problem at all? How is it a problem that we get to choose what we watch? There's plenty of places I can go to obtain these 'values' for my moral composition that aren't shown in movie theaters. It's just life.


No one is collectively inclined to do anything. Not all people are mindless and just do what the box office says (not saying you are, but I'm saying you seem to think a lot of people are like this). I incline myself to watch movies I think are going to be good, not 'major blockbusters'. But once again, what is the issue here?

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Apr 9 2008, 12:34 am by Dapperdan.

Wrong. Anything being portrayed in a film amounts to a value being presented to the viewer in some way. Even a blur of colors and garbled sound has a value to it. Maybe not a meaningful one, though.
Here devilesk, I'll save you the trouble.

Anything that can be described can be compared, therefor giving it value.